[HOAX] Isaac CARET - Drones [HOAX]

reply to post by nfotech

I understand your dilemma. I think most people don't care how it was done, but it might help us find the perps if we had the guy's analysis. Finding the perps is the only rational pursuit in this silly saga, at this point. Nobody listens to the DRT anyway, so I don't think it would hurt to publish the guy's findings, but then I can't help feeling if he really wanted to weigh in officially or even semi-officially, he would have done so by now. Tomi gave us a taste of the lameness that will follow if the DRT has the guy's report to distort and manipulate, but it's not like they are winning friends and influencing people.

One more time, because some folks seem to need it:
It's painfully obvious to anyone with any sense that the drones are an elaborate hoax. What is not yet clear is who did it, why, and of course, precisely how. None of those questions need be answered in order to validate the obvious. JFK was shot to death as a result of a conspiracy. Regardless of whether it is ever proven who did it, there is no question JFK was shot to death.

I know, that won't help, but there is too much of the teacher in me to stop pounding on thick skulls.

Whoo Hooo! This is just to drop what appears to have been post #6000! Holy Freakin' Cow.

By reversing the process it does tell us the level of resources put in. Its not a ufo we are reversing , its photos, witness involvement, and yes perp and topic maintenance via promotion by a select and identifiable few, despite the common sense, bouyed by expert opinions its a hoax.
Thats what we are doing. WE can't use anonymous experts. Just can't. We won't.
So we will work with what we have. This tree was declared poisoned. Time has passed. Rest assured that its fruit is also poisoned, irrespective of the time passed. On modeling objective figure if that were the case, what it would take monetarily. As I believe having suspected as an example the whitley movie, what was allocated in the budget to cover promotion and virals, would have covered this ten fold.This was a drop in the bucket. Particularly as a lead up to the movie in terms of concept saturation, would be necessary, given the movie will not come out until 2010, by warners,but the spillover into current related books and dvds would be more immediate. And he has 2 in the works, the other greys financed by Sony pictures.

If I am off base, guess what we move on to the next lead..
This will not ahcieve the status of nessie, or even JFK, though some would like to leave it as inconclusive for that very purpose. Simply because we know its a hoax, and we know who has the evidence that can cement that irrefutably, LMH. with the photos. I think that has traveled more boards on the net, than the craft has in the sky for sure. Thats a fact. Not an opinion.
Like the bungee chord, we keep getting snapped back to her, thats a fact too.
So we continue.
Maybe even to 6666
The livyatans would love it.





[edit on 2-6-2008 by Sys_Config]

reply to post by Sys_Config


Though I'm interested in seeing what Sidd has issues with I think you and I see this one in the same light.

Unfortunately I have an expert who requires anonymity and failed to find anything which would break the case. The only thing of value I've taken from it is a lesson in the value of "outside" resources in ufology and some insight into the mind of a counterfeiter. What can I say? I've been telling everyone there's nothing there and let's worry about bigger issues. It's funny how the DRT make a huge deal out of this but LMH stashing photos is no big deal and "justified" because Kris made a CG video.

The one kernel of wisdom in his work is pointing out that a closer look at the timing of the photos will demonstrate only photos with reference objects in the right places were taken despite opportunities for more. If I remember right, Raj chased the drone through a neighborhood yet only managed to photograph the drone when it was sitting over the power lines? He felt other photo series showed the same "sleight" and I would bet the missing photos in LMH's pocket would follow the same psychology.

The poor quality of some of the pictures complete with photo defects like purple color fringing and so on led him to believe the object was a model rather than CG. Why do a incomplete 3D render yet spend hours faking photo defects? It's possible but IMO points towards a model, perhaps even a lesser detailed model which was enhanced with CG. That would accomplish the desired effect just fine.

The staging of the photos show a "clumsy", heavy handed attempt to convince. The same could be said for the evolution of the drone, how it goes from elegant to junk yard complexity. I think these issues give us a very telling insight into our hoaxers mind.

Here's what I would be concerned with if I were in the DRT:

1. Photographers who vanish
2. Witnesses who lie
3. Investigative Reporters who hide evidence and possibly keep witnesses to themselves for financial gain.
4. Non photo witnesses who won't answer basic questions and aren't checked out.
5. Supporters who "believe" out of weird agendas rather than truth.
6. The appearance of ethical issues combined with book / media deals.
7. Investigation add on members who lie, cheat, etc.

My little wayward analyst means nothing in comparison. Those people have a lot of very big issues to worry about. Nobody is being misdirected by jumping up and down and pointing at other people, well nobody who matters.

reply to post by nfotech

I think what is consterning is that DRt has big issues, an understatement, and once they isolated themselves which is usually the case with such groups, Om had an opprtunity to return to balance of view points, fre discourse unfettered by egos. Then suddenly, the door ws not only opened, but keys to the house given to Didier and that although you say perfectly logical things, they actually go against the grain of that environment. Couple that with OMs own inability to act on LMH to date, and instead forged an even stronger relationship with her via the OMRT.

With Jeremiah tennesee sighting, OM was great. Biut with Shirley and the photos they closed ranks., So its obvious there that blood is thicker than water. Nothing wrong with loyalty as long as its not used to tyrranize people searching for answers, and not forming a wall around the very obstacle and answer to everyones questions. They did and continue to do both aggresively.

One of the few people who stood up early on was AC or ATO. I don't agree with her on many things, but on one thing I know we agree was that LMH had no basis to do what she did and does today.
They did with the experts, they most certainly did it with Mufons Jaime Carrion,, and that was a most shameful display on their part, and they do it now with any informed opinion.

I believe Sidd does have a very legitimate concern, why are you helping them now knowing what you know and a mufon reporter, continue rather than let them fall flat on their own tails.

They have no interest in looking for a hoaxter because that would be a blasphemous admission of hoax. And yet, that is more or less mufons position now. Would you still help them undermine that? wwhile at the same time beef up Oms imaging group. its as if something is developing behind the scenes we are not aware of or am I way off the mark here. At last count I was told you had 20 you screened yourself. Are we missing or misreading something , because Honest Info it did or does send mixed signals. It would be good if Bren answered why HE does not push LMH or are they beholding to her too. It seems her agenda and Om and DRT are IDENTICAL .If they are, what would you do then, building an apparatus that essentiall serves her interests when it suits her, and contrary to mufons core beliefs and standards? forget what our own position here is.

Thats what i think perhaps Sidd is asking, in serving three masters.but I know he can correct me if I am mistaken and hopefully I have not twisted it anyway. Sidd is usually quite clear and to the point.




[edit on 3-6-2008 by Sys_Config]

[edit on 3-6-2008 by Sys_Config]

Hi info,

not really issuses... As I said, I had to sleep over this. Maybe I expected to much. Since "model" was my first thought, when I saw the Chad drone, I had to be convinced by the experts, what they saw.

After the consensus had become CG, you brought in the model theory again and promised an expert for this. Maybe it was just my curiosity that made it sound so big.

I am satisfied now with your explanations above. And indeed, it would not help us, to start that discussion again. During the first three days it filled about 60 pages of this thread.

reply to post by Sys_Config


When you put it like that I can understand the POV better. I'll try my best to explain it and please understand, I have no reason to obfuscate, cover up or lie - I'm so far to the fringe of things @ OM my "position" there is a bit ironic. I do have some things I can't talk about but those aren't OM subjects at all, they're external to ufology, forums, ATS, OM, etc entirely.

My primary goal is to build ufosearch - it's going to be a true content management / project mgt and collaboration space geared towards ufology. I'm using off the shelf components and when it's done I'll be offering it to various research groups, not just OM. I'm hoping MUFON might take a look at it but I have this funny feeling they won't unless word gets back to them from other research groups using it.

Long ago, in marriage counseling I learned that everyone has perceptions based on their own experiences, culture, upbringing and so on which form their base when it comes to events in life. You may not agree with them or understand why they feel that way but you have to learn not to invalidate their feelings, regardless of how you feel. That's why I don't question your opinoins about OM, even though I don't always agree.

See, now I'm in the position of defending OM which isn't really fair. I have no "inside track" at OM. I'm not part of the leadership, discussions or even the research teams. I was asked to head up the imaging analysis project due to having expertise in video analysis and because I'm building this system which they hope to use. I didn't vet the volunteers, it's completely open to whoever wants to join, including you, Sys. Those who can learn will be taught and those who can teach will teach.

Through the drone threads and investigation I watched "non experts", armchair investigators and interested parties with skill perform the best analysis on this case. MUFON took a waiver, most of the expert analysis were just briefs - it proved a theory I've long held in content mgt known as "crowd sourcing". That's the direction I'm going in and it really has no relation to any philosophy or bias people might see @ OM.

I have performed some video analysis on other cases which hasn't been released yet along with a few other qualified folks and I can assure you, it's top notch work. There's no "believer" madness going on so far, in fact I'm finding it errors on the side of being a bit too conservative. The people I've worked with up to this point are very serious about doing credible investigations.

See, there really is a separation between the research team I'm working with and the concept you see in the forums. I feel that OM is meant to be "open" to any and all, no matter how ridiculous we might find some of the ideas found there. I feel like we really do need a place like that even if it's just to harvest the bits of really good data out of the noise.

As I've said though, I may be naive based on inexperience and the task of building credible research teams may prove a lot harder based on the forum. I'm not sure if allowing subjects to be discussed and protecting the people putting the ideas forward means Bren endorses them. I can't speak for him though and I've had basically no interaction at all with the guy. I see them as an experiment still in motion there and being that open means they will attract the "special" people, if you know what I mean. I haven't figured out if that's really a bad thing or not.

If there's something to be worried about I'll either figure it out for myself over time or I won't. I'll find my own way, just like I always do.
I do appreciate the advice of compatriots like yourself and sidd but just as I try not to question your perceptions I'd ask you allow me the folly of mine. I promise, there's nothing evil in my intentions.

All those words and I realized I failed to answer some of your best questions...

There is the OMRT and OMEFT and in between a group of people doing active work on Stephenville and some other less publicized cases. Those are the folks I'm working with. I don't actually know if any of the OMRT are involved with my group, I don't even know who is in the OMRT to be honest.

OM has put itself in a very difficult position, I think. They want to be open to any and all yet still respect fair discourse from all sides. (At least that's what's printed on the door). Just as I stood up for the DRT when I felt the debate was leaving logic and fair discussion I also found my position was based on not knowing all the facts. We can see where that ended up. I always leaned towards hoax but was willing to be convinced by this "secret evidence" I kept being seduced with. I'm stubborn like that though, even though some very intelligent and nice people were trying to warn me I had to find things out for myself. I have huge trust issues, unfortunately.

I don't have all the facts at this point in time when it comes to some of the things asserted here about OM. I certainly don't have anyone from that side of the fence making positions clear for me. I'm not sure if there is an endorsement of the DRT or LMH or if it's an honest expression of this "open platform" for all parties philosophy. (I wasn't around for the events which led to some of you leaving so I apologize if that statement offends you as I would think it might based on our perceptions and experiences).

I'm the type of person who always jumped on the bully (and usually got my ass kicked for it) when I saw a weaker person victimized. My mom always said I had a very unhealthy sense of "justice" and was in for a lot of disappointment in life. If I see someone booted out of OM unfairly I'm very apt to start a fight and follow them out the door.

The system I'm building will be offered to research teams doing active work, I won't be passing judgment on who they are or what they believe. I'm hoping to build more cooperation, better tools for researchers and witnesses alike and break down the walls keeping so many research teams isolated. They won't have to agree with each other or even talk, I just want to pool the data for everyone to use. Those who take issue with that are welcome to stay in their little armed compounds, I teach by example.

I'm here because it's fun and I can openly discuss this case and how I feel about it without offending anyone or creating "issues" against the OM philosophy. That's why I stopped participating in the drone discussion there until I let Tomi drag me back in again. I'm over it, it's out of my system and that's that. If me being here is presenting a conflict for either forum then I'll be fine going back to lurker status.

Originally posted by TheShadow
I noticed over at drones R us (the DRT forum) Lev has taken official credit for the thumper drone picture tomi came here and depfended its authenticity and swore was legit and he (Lev) was not responsible for its creation!! So tomi what do you have to say now??

I also noted Springer has his own thread there...... they apparantly didnt agree with his reasoning for labeling this "rubbish" as an official hoax!!! If nothing else the place is good for a laugh!!

I am not too proud to say I made a mistake. Lev was very honest and open about this with me. Something sorely lacking here.

Infotech, if we dared to say.. "ahh we have some photo analysis but we won't share it with you, because we don't want to confuse you".. LOL

Would we (the DRT) ever hear the end of it??
Well don't expect less from us..

Originally posted by nfotech
I always leaned towards hoax but was willing to be convinced by this "secret evidence" I kept being seduced with. I have huge trust issues, unfortunately.

And rightly you should.. disingenuousness seems to be your MO..
It's no secret that a liar won't believe anyone else..
(every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief... )

I'm the type of person who always jumped on the bully (and usually got my ass kicked for it) when I saw a weaker person victimized. My mom always said I had a very unhealthy sense of "justice" and was in for a lot of disappointment in life. If I see someone booted out of OM unfairly I'm very apt to start a fight and follow them out the door.

Yes, well that is very noble of you, and many of us have the same feelings of justice, except those here, when promoting the hoax theory will stop at nothing.. I only have one question.. WHY??

If you think it is a hoax.. then forget about it.. stop hindering our work with misinformation and verbal attacks. You can't let go of it though.. you want to know.. don't you?

Like everyone else who cries "hoax".. remorras who just want to suck the information from the work of others...

That's why I stopped participating in the drone discussion there until I let Tomi drag me back in again.

That's right ... blame it on me..

[edit on 3-6-2008 by tomiuk]

reply to post by tomiuk


I'm beyond tired of your personal attacks based on nothing but the fact I found your investigation to be lacking in oh, what's that thing called? PROOF

If you have examples of my "lies and disingenuousness" then please, fire away. I think you just can't accept the fact that someone stood up for you, was willing to exam your case with an open mind and found it to be a pile of steaming crap.

I really don't see how I'm hindering your investigation, dear. Please enlighten me. I'll give you one warning, you're making this thing personal and I have about run out of patience with being slandered by you. If I wanted to damage your case I could make one phone call and your future media exposure would be over. I realize you're passionate about this case so I've made allowances. Your passion has blinded you to the truth, however.

Either post your concrete examples of my evil or retract your accusation. You won't like my response should you fail to do so.


[edit on 3-6-2008 by nfotech]

[edit on 3-6-2008 by nfotech]

explanation well done and accepted, no misconceptions here and kudos on your goals, wish you success

[edit on 3-6-2008 by Sys_Config]

reply to post by tomiuk


Tomi and all of DRT, you do realize that trying to find evidence to convince the masses that the drones are real (that is your goal, right?) is going to be impossible. People have been trying to prove that UFO's exist for many years. Disclosure will not be coming through the DRT lol. You may convince others to join your drone cult, and find a few more to believe in the invisible anti-gravity drone from Alien technology, but you will never, I repeat never blow the case wide open so that all people will believe that the Drones exist.

Your wasting time and money on a fruitless endeavor that is more designed to appease the drone belief inside yourselves than to find irrefutable evidence of Alien contact, visitation and back-engineering.

You dedicated drone fanatics have accepted anonymous witnesses, magical photos, and any 'witness' that has a drone claim. Your (the DRT)
biased approach to the subject has many laughing to themselves. Your section of the DRT forum addressing the experts is condesending and ludicrious. It is an example of the barrier you all have wrapped around yourselves. A barrier that refuses openminded, objective, critical thinking. It only allows a ferverent belief in something that is far from being belief worthy.


Point to consider: The hoaxers are probably very close to you now. Leviathan, for example, a BIG drone supporter since day one, could be the actual source of the hoax. All of the CGI stuff he produces is purposely of a lower quality than the original drone photos so no one will think he has the talent, capabilities, or required software. Watch him closely. Hoaxers like to take an active role in their hoax and like to keep it going by acting as a supporter. Leviathan is playing the DRT like a french harp. And you guys don't even know your being played.

TK Davis will keep playing you as well. At least until the money well dries up!

TK Davis loves you all!

Originally posted by nfotech
reply to post by tomiuk

 

I'm beyond tired of your personal attacks based on nothing but the fact I found your investigation to be lacking in oh, what's that thing called? PROOF

You came along trying to schmooze us, you seemed genuine, and when we wouldn't take you immediately into the DRT fold, you started singing a different tune.. Now you say we even neglected to "show you proof"..

How disingenuous can you be?

If I wanted to damage your case I could make one phone call and your future media exposure would be over.

You are soo full of yourself aren't you. LOL

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by tomiuk

 

Tomi and all of DRT, you do realize that trying to find evidence to convince the masses that the drones are real (that is your goal, right?) is going to be impossible.

TK Davis loves you all!

I think it's quite remarkable really, that so far our professional approach to researching and investigating the drones with active participants should be so criticised. If you have a different approach, please bring it to the light.

If you want to forget this mystery and label it a hoax, then forget about it. I love mysteries. This is a great one. We will persue the truth, where ever it leads. And unlike Infotech.. we won't be afraid of confusing the truth by hiding it...

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


This is a splendid morning I am waking up to, like getting that perfect cup of cofee that tastes just right! Thank you for that insight as they indeed have a little devils helper right there inhouse. I really do understand those feelings a little better actuall guys, its just like that song by percy sledge

When a man loves a Drone,
Can't keep his mind on nothin' else,
He'd change the world for the good thing he's found.
If its bad, he can't see it,
It can do no wrong,
Turn his back on his best friend if he put it down.
When a man loves a Drone,
He'll spend his very last dime
Tryin' to hold on to what he needs.
He'd give up all his comforts
And sleep out in the rain,
If it said that's the way
It ought to be.


If youd like to hear it, click on the midi, close window, and enjoy
heartofsanantonio.com...
I rather like that








[edit on 3-6-2008 by Sys_Config]

Originally posted by tomiuk

Originally posted by nfotech
reply to post by tomiuk

 

I'm beyond tired of your personal attacks based on nothing but the fact I found your investigation to be lacking in oh, what's that thing called? PROOF

You came along trying to schmooze us, you seemed genuine, and when we wouldn't take you immediately into the DRT fold, you started singing a different tune.. Now you say we even neglected to "show you proof"..

How disingenuous can you be?

If I wanted to damage your case I could make one phone call and your future media exposure would be over.

You are soo full of yourself aren't you. LOL

Now that is so sad. I stood up for you, tried to help you and little by little I found the case lacking and the investigation biased. I've been completely open about that so I don't see how that makes me disingenuous. The comments about "if you only knew the evidence we can't share", made by you, to more people than just me, is where the "secret evidence" comes from. You're correct in pointing out I was very foolish to believe it. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that would be a glowing example of your dis-ingenuousness, dear. Not mine.

I'm actually a pretty humble person and I'm floored at all the attention you seem to be giving me, really. All you've done is given a prime example of just how biased your investigation is. As long as I stand up for you and believe in your case, I'm a good person. It doesn't matter that I told everyone openly I leaned towards hoax, I was providing something you obviously wanted. Oh but now I don't agree and question your motivations and case and I'm Satan himself come to tempt the masses or perhaps a govt. disinfo agent. Yes, yes.

You couldn't paint a better definition of dis-ingenuousness, you just need to work on where you aim. Please take note boys and girls, you're only a "friend" and an intelligent resource so long as you believe in the drones. Should you question the case, the line for evil disinfo agents forms right where you're standing.

I have an email here from a certain lady, in it she tells me what a wonderful person I am and how intelligent and capable I am, how helpful, etc, etc. Apparently that too only applies so long as I believe in the magic drones.... What? You say you were told the exact same thing by her? And you, and you? Word for word? Hmmm...

That's the very definition of dis-ingenuousness, now isn't it?

My opinion is that your crew and this case is damaging something important to me and I'm done standing by idly watching. Don't worry, if my opinion of myself is as overinflated as you seem to think it is you have nothing to worry about. If it's not, I think you just kicked over the wrong rock, my dear.

I tell you want, you give me the missing photos, the "evidence you can't share", whatever contact info you have for witnesses to date and a copy of the PI's case file, and 25 cents and I'll give you my expert's analysis. How's that for fair?


[edit on 3-6-2008 by nfotech]

Originally posted by nfotech

I have an email here from a certain lady, in it she tells me what a wonderful person I am and how intelligent and capable I am, how helpful, etc, etc. Apparently that too only applies so long as I believe in the magic drones.... What? You say you were told the exact same thing by her? And you, and you? Word for word? Hmmm...

That's the very definition of dis-ingenuousness, now isn't it?

If it's not, I think you just kicked over the wrong rock, my dear.

Well, since you have brought up our communications, please remember I also have your emails to expose as well..

Next, everyone who writes to me gets the same treatment, yes, that's correct. I usually start out believing that the person writing to me is genuine.. I'm nice back. I'm sympathetic enough to say, yes we have deeper research going on, that keeps us going towards the non-hoax side.. after a while, when they realise I can't disclose everything we know or bring them in, I see public attacks about us posted on ATS....

You mean tomi's been like hoe'n herself to you too like a Mahatamari .? Dang, I think she did same line the whole forum it seems and now she comes here whinin just like a little ......girl. Aint that a spank in the arse.!
Somebody Puhleeze.. hose the place down after she leaves, this is too much. This isn't an obsession, its a doggone recreational activity!
Dr.Dil, tell us not you too..


Don't spare the clorox either






[edit on 3-6-2008 by Sys_Config]

Originally posted by Sys_Config
You mean tomi's been hoe'n herself to you too.? Dang, I think she did same line the whole forum it seems and now she comes here whinin just like a little ......girl. Aint that a spank in the arse.!
Somebody Puhleeze.. hose the place down after she leaves, this is too much.

Now sys, this is just too nasty a retort to let stand without pointing out that if you were a legitimate person you would take the word "hoe" out of your post above. It says a whole lot more about you than it does me.

You have been displaying a disturbing amount of sexism in your posts as well lately.