Originally posted by neformore
The bitter resentment this will cause from the "normal" Iraqi population in the years to come will be long term and not good at all, because the root cause of all the death and destruction right now in Iraq lays squarely at the feet of the people who kicked it all off.

In the first place, going into Iraq, the headlines screamed "Operation Shock and Awe!"

Now, anyone who could call a murderous attack on a sovereign nation that, would have to be crazy in the first place.

Then the news every night showed bombs lighting up the sky. What an evil and sick plan America perpetuated on that country.

I am so amazed and totally ashamed to call myself an American after seeing:

-the dead corpses of Saddam's sons on the front pages of our newspapers (I had never previously seen pictures of dead corpses in our newspapers, have you?

-the destroyed infrastructure of Iraq

-their President (the one we planted there to lead) was "on trial" with no sound coming from his lips, and then savagely executed on TV!

-over 1/2 million Iraqis murdered, including old men, women and children

-Iraq, a country ruined by depleted uranium, water systems ruined, electricity for only a few hours a day, precious museum treasures looted

-USA now has drugs flowing freely through Iraq, a country that never allowed this before (that's an old trick we use)

All of this is an unbelievable nightmare! Whatever happens to Americans as a result of all of this, I can't say I'd be surprised...honestly. We have done the worst, no, maybe the annihilation of the Native American peoples was worse...no, maybe the hundreds of years of Enslavement of African peoples was...

Soldiers are not my favorite people, nor are "hit-men" or serial killers.

And when the soldiers get home, I guarantee you they will be very sick and crazy as bedbugs. Mostly because they have killed a lot of people, and they will never get over it. Their families should truly be afraid...

There is no such thing as terrorism...killing is killing! On both sides, soldier or freedom fighter...they're killers. A cool calm pilot just presses a button and drops a 2500 ton bomb on a village...without a blink of the eye? Whoooaaa, this has got to be a sick guy. He just killed lots of people he wasn't even mad at! My God! What kind of job is that?

In the case of Iraq, at least the so-called terrorists have a bone to pick!

How dare anyone say that their job is to kill men who are defending their country from invasion, and that they're only doing their job. Real men fight eye to eye, cowards press buttons.

I have more respect for the passion of the guy who is not on salary (the freedom fighters).

By the way, before Bush had him offed, Saddam had Iraq running with precision...remember, Saddam's buddy Rumsfeld had given him weapons and stuff when we "appointed" him President of Iraq.

(it's important to note that this is the opinion of an old woman and I don't have experience with the killer video games used nowadays)

Originally posted by CSIfan
How dare anyone say that their job is to kill men who are defending their country from invasion, and that they're only doing their job. Real men fight eye to eye, cowards press buttons.

I have more respect for the passion of the guy who is not on salary (the freedom fighters).

Done much eye to eye killing yourself have you? Thought not. The last button I pressed to kill someone in a war was a trigger at a range of about 25 metres. Not close enough? How about clearing buildings at touching distance, fighting almost hand to hand? We don't all stay 20 miles away and press buttons safe in a sanger. The insurgents do plenty of button pressing with their command detonated bombs.

You have a strange romantic vision of these people. Armchair commandoes tend to buy into this image. It changes slightly when you see your mates get murdered by these 'freedom fighters'. We gave them the chance of freedom on a plate and they just took it as an opportunity to squabble for power.

Just remember that without the men and women who have fought all over the world while you sit on your @rse you wouldn't be enjoying the freedoms that you exercise every day in a democratic society. The mere fact that they exist is all that stops other countries taking what you've got.

Originally posted by PaddyInf
Done much eye to eye killing yourself have you?
[/quote[
I said real men FIGHT eye to eye. My ideal war is that where the two leaders square off and go for it, man to man. Solve the problem without too much bloodshed.

Paddy, I apologize if I posted brashly. I don't hate our military; every man in my family has served, all over the world. And every day I see vets always getting the "short stick", and for that I am enraged. But these vets come back from wars so messed up!

The insurgents do plenty of button pressing with their command detonated bombs.

But they're the bad guys, or are they? Didn't Cheney promise they would throw flowers at our soldiers? I guess they didn't much like guys coming over there to take over their country, you see, it's still their country, their oil may be gone, but their land is theirs.

You have a strange romantic vision of these people. Armchair commandoes tend to buy into this image.

"Romantic"? No, I just grieve for a people who have been invaded and murdered. If only the world were all armchair commandos; then there would be more discussion and no more war.

We gave them the chance of freedom on a plate and they just took it as an opportunity to squabble for power.

We, who is we? Are you talking about the major Oil Companies who have big deals going on over there, or the soldiers who were deployed? They may not be happy with the puppets we continue to install in their government, remember that we installed Saddam and looked the other way? Should the Iraqi people trust us this time?

Just remember that without the men and women who have fought all over the world while you sit on your @rse you wouldn't be enjoying the freedoms that you exercise every day in a democratic society.

Gung Ho! But, why are our guys fighting all over the world? Don't you see something strange about that? What kind of country is always "fighting all over the world"?...could that be why we are racking up long lists of enemies? Because I can only remember America being attacked once, at Pearl Harbor. Did I miss something?

Why we fight, constantly, all over the world, is truly a thought to ponder, for all of us Americans. Let's stop meddling. Of course, I know you don't make the decision to go to war, nor do I, so our opinions are just that.

Are our borders secure? Don't you feel kind of funny or suspicious that we're at war and our borders are wide open? I do.

Our soldiers come from us, our families, our communities...and even if we are victorious in war, we all lose something every time we invade and attack another country...some little part of our humanity changes...especially if they were no threat to us. Our communities must then absorb these angry men returning home and it's worse than ever this time...financially, everything in this country is changing rapidly...even the VA is gutting benefits.

Originally posted by CSIfan
Gung Ho! But, why are our guys fighting all over the world? Don't you see something strange about that? What kind of country is always "fighting all over the world"?...could that be why we are racking up long lists of enemies? Because I can only remember America being attacked once, at Pearl Harbor. Did I miss something?

Believe it or not, the role of an army is not just to protect borders, but to ensure the economic stability of a country. How popular do you think the government will be if the middle east fall further into bedlam, driving up fuel prices? I don't think that this is a moral high ground or a reason to go to war, but it is the way that governments have always based their foreign polcies.

Edited to add - I'll have to leave it at that for the minute, as I'm duty officer for the next 24hrs for a company of one of the evil armise that you so detest.

[edit on 1-7-2007 by PaddyInf]

Originally posted by PaddyInf
We gave them the chance of freedom on a plate and they just took it as an opportunity to squabble for power.

We created the problem. Freedom has not been offered.

The 'handover' of power forced them to accept many things which deny them national freedom. The Iraqi Central Bank, which is majority owned by foreigners, gives others power to manipulate their economy. The Iraqi Special Tribunal, with its Foreign Administrative Judges, gives foreigners the power of life and death over even elected officials. 'Contractors' working for the so-called coalition are not subject to Iraqi law. They can commit murder and worse without any reprisals. Dozens of military bases all around their country are a big stick. The little stick is the US Embassy, the largest in the history of the world, sitting in the heart of the historic power center with the Iraqi government in an inferior position.

But how could you understand. You are not capable of putting the shoe on the other foot.

[edit on 1-7-2007 by Malichai]

Originally posted by PaddyInf
How popular do you think the government will be if the middle east fall further into bedlam, driving up fuel prices?

Fuel prices were far lower before the Iraq invasion. They went up because of the Bedlam brought to Iraq and threatened on other mid-east nations.

Who can you point the finger at other than America and the coalition of the bought and paid for? If invasions brought stability the entire world would be occupied and pacified.

But it doesn't work that way. People will expect and fight for freedom. And the further away from their home the invaders are the less likely they will be to accept their rule, direct or puppetship.

Malachai,

We are seeing eye-to-eye on this topic, but I especially like the way you say the things you say, and your sources are right on the money.

I had to make a copy of the reasons why American citizens are at fault to show a friend!

To the OP:

Thank you for this topic, it gives us an opportunity to see our differences of opinion in a new light.

Originally posted by CSIfan
Malachai,

We are seeing eye-to-eye on this topic, but I especially like the way you say the things you say, and your sources are right on the money.

I had to make a copy of the reasons why American citizens are at fault to show a friend!

To the OP:

Thank you for this topic, it gives us an opportunity to see our differences of opinion in a new light.

Too bad more people can't put the shoe on the other foot without wearing rose colored glasses. But as long as people think that invasion and occupation is what we should be doing, then America will fear terrorism.

Originally posted by twitchy
IMO there are two types of terror, the real and the false.
Real terrorism springs from things like futility of a given cause, resistance movements and the like, while false terror tends to empower, or even justify a cause. I don't think that makes much sense now that I read it, but it seems to me that if I were going to say take hostages, I would have a reason, something I wanted to gain from it. Perhaps I would take such hostages as I had no other options, no military alternatives, no popular support, that sort of thing. Now if I take hostages and then leave a copy of the koran and some anti-western literature in the blood pools to get people riled up, then that's false flag operation. Google the term false flag sometime, it will humble you to learn some of the things done under the guise of terrorism.

I wouldn't be surprised if most of it wasn't being done by the 'Contractors'. If you look at Paul Bremmers orders, that the Iraqis accepted as law when they voted, you will see that they are immune from prosecution by the Iraqis and the Coalition. They can only be prosecuted by their home country and there is no requirement to extradite them back home.

British soldiers were caught more than once dressed as Arabs while infiltrating Muslim residential areas with explosives in the car.

Originally posted by neformore

OK. Lets take this a step further - the guy lives in Iraq. He's not a US citizen and Iraq is a sovereign nation at the time. Who gave you the right to drop the bombs on his country in the first place?

In this case - in the eyes of the ordinary Iraqi guy who was just looking after his family and had no interest in politics - the US started the cycle.

Of course, you are right about the perpetuation of it from that point onwards, but we're talking about perspectives here.

Iraq differs from other conflicts we have entered by simply the level of national guilt. How many Iraqis are there who think that somehow they deserve it, or even want it?

Japan and Germany had powerful national guilt after WWII. Those were entirely different situations. If you want to compare then to now the Iraq situation looks like Hitler invading europe, or Japan invading Korea.

[edit on 3-7-2007 by Malichai]