So called "terrorist attacks" are warranted.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

Originally posted by rdang
Isn't it nice to see the support for the killing of children and women.
I hope your vest goes off early.

what makes you different? LOL You don't mind death and destruction as long as its an islamic man, woman or child.

Well said, exactly. What's the difference between Muslims spreading terror through bombings and us spreading terror through airstrikes? There is none, both sides are as bad as each other. (hint: 'terrorism' doesn't mean a brown-skinned man with a towel around his head shouting jihad jihad! we are capable of spreading fear as well!)

When you push someone, eventually they will push back.

Terrorists aren't pushed. They just hate. They hate and they want to kill. Period.

No, hate has to be there for a reason. It's ignorant to just assume or believe that they are 'baddies' who hate us for no reason at all.

But then again, people are ridiculed unless they have that outlook lol just look at Ron Paul, he's been scorned for even suggesting that terrorists may actually have a reason for hating America!

Originally posted by deltaboy
I put something down hard and you whine on something else.

Yeah, I saw that... wikipedia? I hope you don't spend alot of time there, it's useless tripe that generally parrots what your public education stuffed you full of. If they were pirates, why the attempted regime change in Tripoli? What in your mind justifies trying to depose a rightful ruler with your propped up one when you live thousands of miles away? Nationalism that's what.
If you want to debate me on Barbary, that's fine, but come on, wikipedia?

Originally posted by twitchy

Originally posted by deltaboy
I put something down hard and you whine on something else.

Yeah, I saw that... wikipedia?

I hope you don't spend alot of time there, it's useless tripe that generally parrots what your public education stuffed you full of.

I was just reading an article on Muzzlewatch.com and a recent newsletter sent out associated with The Israeli Foreign Ministry contained the following text.

Everyone knows about Wikipedia, a place to go to get the ‘real’ scoop. How often do you use Wikipedia to look up subjects you know little about? Now imagine how often other people use Wikipedia to look up subjects related to Israel.
Wikipedia is not an objective resource but rather an online encyclopedia that any one can edit. The result is a website that is in large part is controlled by ‘intellectuals’ who seek re-write the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. These authors have systematically yet subtly rewritten key passages of thousands of Wikipedia entries to portray Israel in a negative light.
You have the opportunity to stop this dangerous trend! If you are interested in joining a team of Wikipedians to make sure Israel is presented fairly and accurately, please contact [email protected] for details!

Source

Originally posted by twitchy

Yeah, I saw that... wikipedia?

I hope you don't spend alot of time there, it's useless tripe that generally parrots what your public education stuffed you full of. If they were pirates, why the attempted regime change in Tripoli? What in your mind justifies trying to depose a rightful ruler with your propped up one when you live thousands of miles away? Nationalism that's what.
If you want to debate me on Barbary, that's fine, but come on, wikipedia?

Then maybe you should look up on scholarly sources then. Pretty much the same as well in backing up the claims about the Barbary Pirates, but then you just will ignore it anyways.

The Crusades were a series of military conflicts of a religious character waged by Christians during 1095–1291, most of which were sanctioned by the Pope in the name of Christendom.[1] The Crusades originally had the goal of recapturing Jerusalem and the sacred "Holy Land" from Muslim rule and were originally launched in response to a call from the Eastern Orthodox Byzantine Empire for help against the expansion of the Muslim Seljuq dynasty into Anatolia.[2][3]

The term is also used to describe contemporaneous and subsequent campaigns conducted through the 16th century in territories outside the Levant[4], usually against pagans, those considered by the Catholic Church to be heretics, and peoples under the ban of excommunication[2] for a mixture of religious, economic, and political reasons.[5] Rivalries among both Christian and Muslim powers led also to alliances between religious factions against their opponents, such as the Christian alliance with the Sultanate of Rum during the Fifth Crusade. The traditional numbering scheme for the Crusades includes the nine major expeditions to the Holy Land during the 11th to 13th centuries. Other unnumbered "crusades" continued into the 16th century, lasting until the political and religious climate of Europe was significantly changed during the Renaissance and Reformation.

The Children's Crusade was not a military campaign, but probably a popular uprising in France and/or Germany, possibly with the intention of reaching the Holy Land in order to convert Muslims there peacefully to Christianity.

The Crusades had far-reaching political, economic, and social impacts, some of which have lasted into contemporary times. Because of internal conflicts among Christian kingdoms and political powers, some of the crusade expeditions (such as the Fourth Crusade) were diverted from their original aim and resulted in the sack of a Christian city, the Byzantine capital, Constantinople. The Sixth Crusade was the first crusade to set sail without the official blessing of the Church, establishing the precedent that rulers other than the Pope could initiate a crusade wiki

I don't think that anyone here can throw blame around.
It's easy to excuse middle-eastern terrorists, and to blame the west, but this is a historic conflict that's gone on for nearly a thousand years.

The west has plenty of home grown terrorists, and so does the middle east - they don't just kill westerners, they also kill each other, just as happens in the west.

There will always be people who seek a violent way of life.

There will always be those who will use any excuse for violence.

There will always be conflict between religions whilst short sighted people excuse or condone violence in the name of their religion.

There's plenty of blame on both sides - the west has wanted to protect interests vital to their economies, which some middle east countries have sought to de-stableize those economies by using their resources, which the west need.

Islam has, through the ages sought to expand aggressively, in much the same way that christianity did.

You can't have your cake and eat it.

[edit on 26/6/2007 by budski]

"to make sure Israel is presented fairly and accurately"...
Man I wish people would cut off their televisions long enough to look into what Israel and Zionism really are.
When you step out of the box long enough to see the real light, you find out that they really do control the media and they really do own the international banks and manipulate public opinion and run around without any sense of accountibility for their actions. True Terrrorism used to be for a specific purpose, to accomplish a goal be it revenge or whatever, or to make a point.. now it's some elusive international boogey man that is just out to get you and hates your way of life. What a convienent justification that must be for those who would act to stamp it out, people who have apparently forgotten the age old proverb that when you create a monster, you have to feed it.
I disagree with the title of this thread, no killing is ever warranted lest it be in self defense IMO, but I can certainly see why they are pissed off. If I were say a Pallestinian, I'd probably be in the same boat as I would have a real serious farqin problem with somebody telling me to get off my land because their version of God loves the little semitic babies more.
I have a serious enough problem with paying extra for my groceries so it's fit for them to eat.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by twitchy
True Terrrorism used to be for a specific purpose, to accomplish a goal be it revenge or whatever, or to make a point.. now it's some elusive international boogey man that is just out to get you and hates your way of life.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Would you care to elaborate on this?
I was under the impression that according to Lenin, "The Purpose of Terrorism is to Terrorise"
In other words, to inflict terror on the people of a certain nation, creed, religion, culture etc
Terrorism does not need to have a specific purpose.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Terrorists aren't pushed. They just hate. They hate and they want to kill. Period.

I am grabbing this from the first page because it deserves attention...although it has already been discussed.

'They hate and they want to kill. Period': It is a phrase which, in its clarity through simplicity, allows us to remove ourselves from one particular line of consequence (antagonist) and tie us firmly into another (victim). It is a natural, ethnocentricly driven, reaction which as as common place as it is dangerous.

If we allow ourselves to fall too completely into this mindset then we have placed blinders over our perception of any conflict...as is quite evident from the quotation above.

'Terrorist attacks' are called so only because we are the ones receiving these attacks. The backpack bomb or the exploding civilian bus is seen as an attack perpetrated by an enemy who is filled with nothing but hate, cowardice and misinformed ideas. In this mindset they are attacking us not because they are provoked, but because they hate the idea of us; our freedom alone is enough to send them into a rage.

After all...this is what we are told. This is what many of us choose to believe. It is easy and understandable.

The statement:

"We are trying to bring them the true and just way of life. We are trying to do what is best for them. They are simply hateful, dirty men who want nothing more then to murder every last one of us."

...is much easier to digest and accept then:

"There is a long history of clashing cultures and ideals. A resource based relationship coupled with significantly differing views on how culture/society should progress has led to conflicts which are, as a result of vast economic and technological means, fought in very different ways."

This mindset is also guilty of a lack of comprehension. We can not comprehend how or why a violent action such as a suicide bombing is conceived, much less acted upon. We watch the conflict through a one way mirror and never attempt to put ourselves in the minds of those who we would call our enemies.

It would not hurt to put yourself in the mind of those whom you would call your enemies:

Your land is being taken from you; your family killed by an explosion wrought from the clouds themselves. Those who are responsible are thousands of miles away and those which represent the killers of your family are overpoweringly armed...in which way do you retaliate? In which way do you 'fight' for your culture, country and life?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
According to your philosophy they all deserved to die.

This is a line of argument which is based soley on 'gut-reaction' of the victim and assumption of intent. It is assumed that the 'terrorists' wanted only to kill:

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The children all deserved to die. So did the cleaning women who were blown up by the terrorist bomb. So did the police men standing in line to get paid. So did the journalists.

[...]

And so on and so on ….

This very same argument can be used to fuel the opposite fire. One could say that all those killed as 'collateral damage' were specifically targeted and killed as innocents. We attach a different name to those innocents who are killed, yet in the end it accomplishes the same, intented or unintended, reaction: fear.

If one is to call the truck bomb which kills city goers a terrorist action then one must also call the air to surface missle which kills city goers a terrorist action.

I am not attempting to justify any act ideal driven violence. Both sides are, in my humble opinion, incorrect in conception, action and artificial justification. If anything, I am simply trying to communicate a mindset of comprehension. A mindset of attempted understanding as to why such tactics must and will be used by either side.

web.ebscohost.com...

web.ebscohost.com...

web.ebscohost.com...

Here are some sources that can be viewed as reliable for the distrust of wiki.


Need more, just ask.

I seem to have put two same links.

[edit on 26-6-2007 by deltaboy]

They attacked us because of our actions in the middle east (The CIA sponsored coup in 1953 that removed the Iranian Prime Minister from power, The 1988 shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655, ect.), but only a coward would support intentionality kill civilians.

[edit on 6/26/2007 by Alien42]

[edit on 6/26/2007 by Alien42]

IMO there are two types of terror, the real and the false.
Real terrorism springs from things like futility of a given cause, resistance movements and the like, while false terror tends to empower, or even justify a cause. I don't think that makes much sense now that I read it, but it seems to me that if I were going to say take hostages, I would have a reason, something I wanted to gain from it. Perhaps I would take such hostages as I had no other options, no military alternatives, no popular support, that sort of thing. Now if I take hostages and then leave a copy of the koran and some anti-western literature in the blood pools to get people riled up, then that's false flag operation. Google the term false flag sometime, it will humble you to learn some of the things done under the guise of terrorism.

Originally posted by Weisheit
First Im American and not Islamic.


Now, I know a lot of you wont like that I said that, but we've been pillaging these people, their lands, and resources for decades. What do think their going to do? Fact is they have no other means of resistance

Now someone will say "but their targeting innocents". So long as we stand idly by while our government uses our money, our will, and our resources no one is innocent, not you, not me, not anyone.

Raped, pillaged, plundered, and murdered. What would you do?

When you push someone, eventually they will push back.



[edit on 26-6-2007 by Weisheit]

Very poor choice of words, imo.

pil·lage /ˈpɪlɪdʒ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pil-ij] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -laged, -lag·ing, noun
–verb (used with object) 1. to strip ruthlessly of money or goods by open violence, as in war; plunder: The barbarians pillaged every conquered city.
2. to take as booty.
–verb (used without object)
3. to rob with open violence; take booty: Soldiers roamed the countryside, pillaging and killing.
–noun
4. the act of plundering, esp. in war.
5. booty or spoil.

dictionary.reference.com...

We've taken them from nomads and made them some of the wealthiest nations on earth. We've given them the capacity to cripple our economy.

Pillaged? More like "bestowed riches".

Lack of Leadership (and compromise) in Washington Leads to the death of thousands..again!

Back to the Future! (A soon-to-be printed newspaper article from any city in America)

Too little too late!

“On______, 20__ America was hit again! After years and year’s debate on how to handle this inevitable event with open borders, disagreements from our leaders, and clear early warning signs, many directly from the terrorist’s mouth…see the attached home-made video on American soil from the month before…it appears we have dropped the ball…again!

We now know the death total is well over 5,000. On the day after it happened, President _________ commissioned a group of top philosophical, business and community leader to access ‘why.’

After much internal fighting and debate The _______ Commission decided to utilize a business process assessment tool popularized by a money-making machine, The Toyota Motor Company. The problem solving tool is called 5-Why. The tool’s basic premise is to ask ‘why’ at least five times, which for many decades have lead business leaders to the root cause of a number of issues.

Interestingly enough this tool is counter-intuitive. For example, if you were told that the reason the Jefferson Memorial building was decaying much more quickly than it should be…….and that the reason was because the lights were being turned on, you’d question that logic, wouldn’t you? But it’s true and here’s how the 5-Why gets you there.

Effect - Jefferson Memorial decaying prematurely.
Why? Building being washed to remove bird feces.
Why? Lots of birds coming to eat nats.
Why? Nats are plentiful.
Why? They are attracted to the light coming on early.
Root Cause-Turn on the lights later.

Less nats + less birds + less feces + less washing = longer lasting building.

So the reason the building was falling apart is the lights were turned on!

This same logic was applied to the latest terrorist attacks.

Effect – Over 5000 Americans died.
Why? Terrorists got close enough to kill.
Why? Terrorists went undetected and garnished killing devices.
Why? Terrorists blended in our population.
Why? Terrorists got across the border unimpeded.
Why? Border security had holes in it.
Why? Washington Leaders couldn’t compromise on a solution to protect it’s citizens.

Maybe now they will???

OldThinker, stop spamming this crap.

I dont remember where i heard this but, One mas terrorist is another mand freedom fighter. If you think about it the US is a terrorist to Islam.It's just another country and different people so our government makes us think they are all evil when infact they are not. I have Muslim friends, I am catholic, and they are very nice people. They would do anyhting to help me if I were in need as me the same to them. There are extremists and there are ordinary people. And just like mentioned before, if you push someone eventually they will push back.

???

I'm sorry, What does that mean???

Please show some intelligent response to the content of the post...it will be a real shame when we read this (for real, my brother)

I'm not an IT savvy person, what are you saying, please advise. Thank you...

Originally posted by OldThinker
???

I'm sorry, What does that mean???

Please show some intelligent response to the content of the post...it will be a real shame when we read this (for real, my brother)

I'm not an IT savvy person, what are you saying, please advise. Thank you...

Intelligent response, you posting that same thing like you are bot or something and got nothing else to say.

Deltaboy, Slow down please...

Please explain the 'spam' issue? I'm serious...

I will not waste my time or your time on petty insults...time is short and these are very very dangerous times...

And what is 'crap' about the content of the post? What points do you disagree with? I am very interested in your opinion...

I've lived long enough to know that if another, when another attack happens..our quiet, peaceful country will most definitely change...the freedoms you now enjoy will be put on hold...pls re read the post and if you have time...respond

OT!

Terrorism on 9-11 = not justifiable
Failed US foreign policy throughout history = not justifiable

What scares me is that people can't see that the only way we are going to get peace and justice is to look at life right now. I can't hold a people responsible for actions committed by their ancestors. I also can't judge an entire people for the actions committed by select individuals within that group. In return I demand that no one judge me for issues I have no control over. What ever happened to judging a man on his own actions?

If your a terrorist, stop bombing people and read up on Martin Luther King Jr and Mahatma Gandhi. The only way you will ever be successful in your aim (taking into account that it is a noble goal and not the destruction of a people) is to use non-violence to effectively "guilt" the world into doing the right thing and supporting you. Is this fair, no. Does it suck and will innocent people still get hurt, yes. Keep in mind though that it is the only way to get what all people want, peace.

If your an everyday citizen under the gun of terrorism, stop being a victim. Read up on the things that are going on and say, would I want that to happen to me? All people feel fear, anger, and sorrow regardless of race or creed and so on. It is your duty as a human to try to help out those men that are in a worse off spot then you. And you must do it with the truest of intentions or else it will backfire on you. This means electing leaders who are responsible and will work for the betterment of mankind, regardless of party affiliations.

In closing let me say this. All you great minds here on ATS need to stop being so polarized. Everyone is right on some issues and everyone is wrong on others, but don't start questioning the humanity of those who disagree with you. It is your job to come up with a solution to these problems and then make everyone else see this conclusion. That is the key, convincing others you are right. You may have the best plan to solve all of the worlds problems, but it doesn't mean squat if you act condescendingly toward everyone else.

C'mon now! We all know why terrorists attack Americans. It's because of the freedoms we all enjoy, and our quality of life being so much greater than theirs. That's what good ol' uncle gwb says, and he's never lied to us, or even been wrong before, has he?