Freemasons and politics

Originally posted by sb2012
Don't know who that man is, but he talked something against secret societies in 1920 or so, later joined them all.

That's Winston Churchill.

He joined freemasonry in 1902 but due to pressure of work resigned from his lodge in 1912 and although he kept his membership of the Craft can at best be described as 'inactive'.

There is a very detailed and informative article about Brother Winston Churchill here.

Given the facts, it is highly unlikely that he spoke out against freemasonry in "1920 or so". I suppose this information comes from one of those dubious websites you seem to like, so full of misinformation it would take weeks to point them all out to you.

I must be careful too.

Why?


[edit on 6/26/07 by Trinityman]

It was meant as a joke, i am not afraid or not aware who the man is.

He said some stuff against illuminati-like people or Illuminati themselves, later he said nothing much about the subject anymore, his political career skyrocketed as did his drinking habit and once he said this:

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
-- Sir Winston Churchill

Oh yes, i agree. But still, i never liked him.

This page is cool. And this one is disturbing:
The Exposed Secret: The Story of forced repatriation of Slovenes (pdf)
Most of the people sent back are now in mass graves with skulls broken. They found some in the caves. Document ends with this:
"Who then is able to speak for the dead? But when the living are prevented from speaking for the dead, has history itself also been keelhauled?"

I will, you can count on that.

[edit on 27-6-2007 by sb2012]

List of Significant Freemasons

US-PRESIDENTS: George Washington, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, James Polk, James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, James Garfield, William McKinley, Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Warren G. Harding, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, Lyndon B. Johnson, Gerald R. Ford.

POLITICAL LEADERS W.W: Winston Churchill, Simon Bolivar, Edmund Burke, Benito Juarez, Edward VII, Geroge VI, Bernardo O'Higgins, José de San Martin, Francisco de Paula Santander, José Rizal, José Marti, Pandit Nehru, Lajos Kossuth, Jonas Furrer, Guiseppe Mazzini, Eduard Benes, John A. MacDonald, Aaron Burr, George McGovern, Barry Goldwater, Estes Kefauer, Thomas E. Dewey, Alf Landon, Hubert H. Humphrey, Wendel Wilke, W.E.B. DuBois, William Jennings Bryant, King Hussein of Jordan, Yasser Arafat, Francois Mitterand, Helmut Kohl, Gerhard Shroeder, Tony Blair, Yikzak Rabbin, Cecil Rhodes, Sir John J.C. Abbott, Stephen F. Austin, John G. Diefenbaker, Samuel J. Ervin Jr. (Watergate committee), Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, Patrick Henry, Rev. Jesse Jackson, Sam Nunn, Lowell Thomas (brough Lawrence of Arabia to pub. not.), Gov. George C. Wallace, Strom Thurman, Jesse Helms, Robert Dole, Jack Kemp, Al Gore, Prince Phillip (GB), Zbigniew Brzezinski, Lord Peter Carrington, Andrew Carnegie, W. Averell Harriman, Henry Kissinger, Richard D. Heideman, Robert McNamara.

MILITARY LEADERS: Omar Bradley, John J. Pershing, Douglas McArthur, General Winfield Scott, Captain Eddie Rickenbacker, Jimmy Doolittle, General Mark Clarkem General George C. Marshall, General Henry "Hap" Arnold, John Paul Jones, Afred von Tirpitz (submarine warfare)

ARTISTS AND ENTERTAINERS: W.A. Mozart, Leopold Mozart, Ludwig van Beethoven, Jean Sibelius, Franz Liszt, Josef Haydn, Irving Berlin, Gutzon Borglum, Charles Peale, Alfons M. Mucha, Richard Wagner, John Philip Sousa, Gilbert & Sullivan, George Gershwin, George M. Cohen, Count Basie, Louise Armstrong, Nat King Cole, Giacomo Meyerbeer, Sigmund Romberg, John Wayne, Red Skelton, Clarke Gable, W.C. Fields, Will Rogers, Burl Ives, Roy Rogers, Danny Thomas, Ernest Borgnine, Oliver Hardy, Tom Mix, Audie Murphy, Gene Autry, Wallace Beery, Eddie Cantor, Roy Clarke, George M. Cohan, Walt Disney, Duke Ellington, Douglas Fairbanks, Leonardo da Vinci, Arthur Godfrey, Bob Hope, Harry Houdini, Al Jolson, Elmo Lincoln (Tarzan), Harold C. Lloyd,.jr, Tom Mix, Ronald Reagan, Will Rogers, Peter Sellers, William Shakespeare, Charles "Tom Thumb" Stratton, Paul Whiteman (King of Jazz), William Wyler (dir. of Ben Hur), Cecil B. DeMille, Sir Arthur Sullivan, John Zoffany.

MOVIE INDUSTRY: Jack Warner, Louise B. Mayer (MGM), Darryl F. Zanuck (20th Century Fox)

INDUSTRY, TRADE, BANKING AND LABOR: Henry Ford, Samuel Gompers, Walter P. Chrysler, John Wanamaker, S.S. Kresge, J.C. Penney, John Jacob Astor, John L. Lewis, Pehr G. Gyllenhammar (Volvo), Percy Barnevik (ABB), André Citroën, Samuel Colt (Colt revolver), Edwin L. Drake (oil), Rockefeller family, Rothschild family, King C. Gillette (Razors), Charles C. Hilton (Hilton hotels), Sir Thomas Lipton (Tea), Harry S. New (Airmail), Ransom E. Olds (Oldsmobile), David Sarnoff (father of TV), John W. Teets, Dave Thomas (Wendy's Rest.), Edgar Bronfman Jr. (Seagram Whiskey), Rich DeVos (Amway), Alan Greenspan (Fed. Reserve), Giovanni Agnelli (FIAT), Peter Wallenberg (SE-Bank Sweden)

ADVENTURERS: Lewis & Clarke, Charles A. Lindbergh, Kit Carson, Roald Amundsen, Admiral Richard Byrd, Commodore Robert Peary, Kit Carson, Casanova, William "Buffalo Bill" Cody, Davy Crockett, Meriwether Lewis, Robert E. Peary (Northpole)

PHILOSOPHERS: Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Gotthold E. Lessing, Voltaire

ASTRONAUTS: Buzz Aldrin, Neil Armstrong, Leroy Gordon Cooper, Donn Eisele, Virgil I. Grissom, Edgar D. Mitchell, Walter Schirra Jr., Thomas P. Stafford, Paul Weitz, James Irvin, John Glenn

WRITERS: Mark Twain, Sir Walter Scott, Rudyard Kipling, Robert Burns, Wassily I. Maikow, Heinrich Heine, Jean P.C. de Florian, Leopoldo Lugoner, Antonio de Castro Alves, James Boswell, Alexander Pushkin, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Jonathan Swift, Oscar Wilde, Jules Verne, H.G. Wells, Robert Burns, Carlo Collodi (Pinoccio), Edward Gibbon, Francis Scott Key (US NAtional Anthem), Rudyard Kipling, Felix Salten (Bambi), Lewis Wallace (Ben Hur), Alexander Pope

MEDICINE: Alexander Fleming (Penicillin), Jules Bordet, Antoine DePage, Edward Jenner, Charles & William Mayo, Karl & William Menninger, Karl A. Menninger (psychiatrist), Andrew T. Still (Osteopathy)

SCIENCE: Carl Sagan, Hans C. Orsted, J.J Frk. von Berzelius, Alfred Edmund Brehms, Luther Burbank, Johan Ernst Gunnerus, Albert Abraham Michelson (measured speed of light), Gaspard Monge, C.F.S. Hahnemann, Pedro N. Arata, Alexandre Gustave Eiffel, Jame Smithson, John Fitch (Steamboats), Joseph Ignance Guillotin (inventor of the Guillotin), Edward Jenner (vaccin), Simon Lake (submarine), Franz Anton Mesmer (Hypnotism), Albert Einstein, A.J. Sax (saxophone)

LAW: Henry Baldwin, Hugo L. Black, John Blair Jr., Samuel Blatchford, Harold H. Burton, James F. Byrnes, John Catton, Thomas C. Clarke, John H. Clarke, William Cushing, Willis van Devanter, William O. Douglas, Oliver Ellsworth, Stephen J. Field, John M. Harlan, Robert H. Jackson, Joseph E. Lamar, Thurgood Marshall, Stanley Matthews, Sherman Minton, Tom Mix, William H. Moody, Samuel Nelson, William Paterson, Mahlon Pitney, Stanley F. Reed, Wiley B. Rutledge, Potter Stewart, Noah H. Swayne, Thomas Todd, Robert Trimble, Frederick M. Vinson, Earl Warren, Levi Woodbury, William B. Woods

[edit on 27-6-2007 by sb2012]

OTHERS: Frederic A. Bartholdi (designed the Statue of Liberty), Daniel Carter Beard (founder of Boy Scouts), Cornelius Hedges (Yellowstone Nat.Park), James Hoban (architect U.S Captial), James Naismith (basketball), Paul Revere (famous American)

EDUCATION: Robert E.B. Baylor, Leland Stanford (Railroads & Stanford University)

RELIGIOUS LEADERS: Father Francisco Calvo (Jesuit Catholic Priest), Geoffrey Fisher (Canterbury), Billy Graham, Rev. Jesse Jackson, Joseph Fort Newton, Robert Shuller, Oral Roberts, Louise Farrahkan (Nation of Islam), G. Bromley Oxman (friend of Billy Graham), Joseph Smith (Mormon cult), Hyrum Smith (Brother), Brigham Young (2nd leader of Mormon cult), Sidney Rigdon (early Mormon), Heber C. Kimball, Spencer Kimball, Aleister Crowley (Satanist), Gerald B. Gardner (Wiccan), Wynn Westcott (Golden Dawn)

ORGANIZATIONS: Jean Henry Dunant (Red Cross), Melvin Jones (Lions Int.), Giuseppe Mazzini (Ital. Illuminati leader. Mafia), Albert Pike (Ku Klux Klan)

INTELLIGENCE: J. Edgar Hoover, William Casey

More info here ( warning: Christian site )

[edit on 27-6-2007 by sb2012]

You can scratch off Crowley and Gerald B. Gardner from that list.

Rockefeller family, Rothschild family - I really doubt the entire family were Masons.. You can count out all the female members at the very least.

Ronald Reagan was not a mason, and according to this list he was not a president.

Walt Disney, not a mason

But really the fact there has been many big names involved in Masonry is not a surprise.. I believe at one point in time (50's?) one out of every three men were masons. You are bound to have many big names with numbers like that.

Originally posted by sb2012
List of Significant Freemasons

I don't really get your point with this. Freemasons do not hide the fact that they are Freemasons. Anyone can do a search and get a list of famous freemasons. If they are discerning they will probably find much more accurate ones than you posted - even you admit the potential bias of the source - duh!!?

If you have a point it would be helpful if you made it.

I am just pasting the list. I am aware of the source, but still list is pretty accurate. Point is stuff i am talking about for the past few days - freemasonry and other societies are used for politics not just esoteric. Still, fundamental Christian sites are seeing Satan everywhere, so you need to weed out all that disinfo.

Originally posted by sb2012
Still, fundamental Christian sites are seeing Satan everywhere, so you need to weed out all that disinfo.

Ain't that the truth.

You seem to be skirting around various issues and don't really seem to be committing to an opinion. I've read a few of your threads and you seem hesitant to commit yourself - but lots of toe dipping. Just my perception.

I personally do not see any shock that Freemasons are involved in politics and public service in general. This is not necessarily a bad or a good thing, that would ultimately depend upon your perspective. But they are just as likely to be involved in many other professions.

Even if they were involved in politics they would be forbidden to discuss this at lodge meetings. Similarly any business dealings. Bear in mind that some people can be very pious when it comes to rules like this. We are all liable to such austerity when we value and define ourselves by a set of rules we respect. If you take a cross section of those famous freemasons and look objectively at their lives and careers you will not find much in the way of deviancy. Proportioniate to any organisation of people you will find the great, mediocre and the 'improvers', to prove the rule you will find the odd exception too.

Now try looking at it from another perspective - how many revolutionaries and pioneers are there in those lists?

sb2012


Did you know that many FreeMasons of the White Lodge, wrote in some of their books, about the corrupting influences that have been working their way into many of the Masonic Lodges over the last couple hundred years?



For some quotes(Eliphas Levi, Franz Hartmann, and others) follow the links starting with this post:


*Edit* Link Fixed:


"The key to the inner sanctuary has been lost by those that were entrusted with its keeping, and the true password has not been rediscovered by the followers of Hiram Abiff."




[edit on 27-6-2007 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by sb2012
But since Freemasons are not into politics you have no credit for that or for abolishing slavery or establishing women's rights.

I don't know if you live anywhere near London, sb2012, but there is an interesting exhibition on right now at Freemasons Hall as part of the bicentenary of the abolition of the Slave Trade Act in the UK.

www.abolition200.org.uk...

Freemasonry has long been ahead of the game with regards to natural justice (which is not politics). Check out a fascinating article on Black Freemasonry here

I'm quite sure that William Blake was a FreeMason(He was definitely an Adept of the White Lodge, which was implied by Manly P. Hall).


You should check out his art:


Abolitionist Art




William Blake and the FreeMason Godfrey Higgins, who were both at one time Grand Masters of the Ancient Order of Druids, were both very anti-racist:


Freemasonry "William Blake" "Godfrey Higgins"




[edit on 27-6-2007 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by sb2012
freemasonry and other societies are used for politics not just esoteric.

But you haven't shown that at all.

You've shown that some politicians have been Freemasons. This is a fact we've never denied. But you haven't shown how such people have "used Freemasonry" for political ends. So far, the fact that some politicians have been Freemasons seems irrelevant.

Originally posted by Tamahu
sb2012


Did you know that many FreeMasons of the White Lodge, wrote in some of their books, about the corrupting influences that have been working their way into many of the Masonic Lodges over the last couple hundred years?



For some quotes(Eliphas Levi, Franz Hartmann, and others) follow the links starting with this post:

Eliphas Levi could hardly be considered an authority on Freemasonry, or able to judge about any "corrupting influences." After being made a Master Mason, he only attended a couple of meetings, and then resigned because he took at offense that members of his Lodge were critical of the Roman Church and the Jesuits (both of whom he supported).

Ditto for Franz Hartman, who was much more interested in the O.T.O. than in regular Masonry.

But didn't Eliphas Levi get excommunicated?

He studied to become a Romish Priest, but according to the Wikipedia article, he was never actually ordained.

Generally speaking, the Roman Catholic Church is opposed to the Rosicrucian Gnostic Catholic Church.

But there are exceptions, such as Thomas a' Kempis, Eliphas Levi, Athanasius Kircher, and a few others.

Samael Aun Weor on the Gnostic Church

Jesus did not found the Roman Catholic Church; Jesus founded the Gnostic Church. The Gnostic Church existed in the times of Saint Augustine. This is the Church which was known by Jeronimo, Empedocles, Saint Thomas, Marcion de Ponto, Clement of Alexandria, Tertulian, Saint Ambrosio, Harpocrates and all of the first Fathers of the Church. In that epoch, the Church was named the Catholic Gnostic Church.

The Roman Catholic Church in its present form was not founded by Jesus. This Roman Church is a deviation or corruption, a fallen branch of the holy Gnosticism. The Roman Catholic Church is a cadaver...

In this present time, the Roman Catholic Church has totally lost the tradition. That is why we see that in this Roman Church the fire of the temple is lit by acolyte boys, an action that is not only an absurdity, but more over, a very grave sacrilege and an insult to life itself...

We are not members of the Roman Catholic Church. This church only follows the path of the Monk. We follow all four paths. We have the path of the Monk in our Gnostic religion with its Patriarch, Archbishops, Bishops and Priests. That is why we do not belong to the Church of Rome.


We are not against any religion, school or sect either. Many priests of the Roman Church have come to our ranks. People from all organizations have become affiliated with our Gnostic Movement.

And, on Eliphas Levi:

Levi, Eliphas

"The teachings of Eliphas Levi are mixed with something impure. Rudolf Steiner asseverates that Eliphas Levi was twice reincarnated as a priest in a Mexican tribe. This tribe, after having culminated in splendours of wisdom and glory, finally came to enter into decay and witchcraft. So, this soul who later in time was born with the name of Eliphas Levi, nourished himself in that Mexican epoch with that impure knowledge. Thus, this is the only way for us to have a logical explanation of the great errors in which the Abbe Alphonse Louis Constant (Eliphas Levi) falls into.

We clarify: We do not want to say that Eliphas Levi is a Black Magician, he is not, he is a Master, but what we affirm is that his books, in spite of having that seal of grandiosity, are mingled with a lot of impure knowledge. This is all." - The Aquarian Message

It seems that the White Lodge has been more active, within the last couple hundred years, within some of the so-called "irregular" or "clandestine" Lodges; such as the Egyptian Rite, the original O.T.O. of Huiracocha and Franz Hartmann(as opposed to the contemporary O.T.O.), the original Golden Dawn(as opposed to the contemporary Golden Dawns) and a few others.

None-the-less, we certainly respect Manly P. Hall, Albert Pike, Eliphas Levi, Godfrey Higgins, Franz Hartmann, Goethe, and many others....

Originally posted by Tamahu
But didn't Eliphas Levi get excommunicated?

Levi wrote:

"'I ceased being a freemason, at once, because the freemasons, excommunicated by the Pope, did not believe in tolerating Catholicism; I thus separated from them to protect my freedom of conscience and to avoid their reprisals, perhaps excusable, if not legitimate, but certainly inconsequential, because the essence of Freemasonry is the tolerance of all beliefs."

Link

This one speaks for itself:



Notice how it says Freemason and First President, not other way around. This is enough proof for me Freemasonry perceives itself, and most probably is, above all politics.

Yes, you are all about ideals and companionship when speaking in public, but there is simply too much big names and even big buildings dedicated to Freemasonry to be able to say there is no politics inside.

But surely he would have been a freemason before he became President and would have continued to be a freemason after he finished being president. It proves no direct connection, just that he was proud to be one and that others were proud to have him as one. Either way nobody is hiding anything in this instance are they?

Originally posted by sb2012


Notice how it says Freemason and First President, not other way around. This is enough proof for me Freemasonry perceives itself, and most probably is, above all politics.

Well, personally, I certainly DO believe that Freemasonry is above politics. Politics, which is so often the squabling of imbeciles, is not even in the same league as Freemasonry and other esoteric initiatory societies.

It is also worth noting that Brother Harry S. Truman, when asked what was the greatest honor ever conferred upon him, answered that it was when he was elected Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Missouri.

Yes, you are all about ideals and companionship when speaking in public, but there is simply too much big names and even big buildings dedicated to Freemasonry to be able to say there is no politics inside.

But that isn't even an argument, but is simply rhetoric. You presume to know what people talk about inside a building just because it is big. The fallacy there is obvious.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by sb2012
Still, fundamental Christian sites are seeing Satan everywhere, so you need to weed out all that disinfo.

Ain't that the truth.

You seem to be skirting around various issues and don't really seem to be committing to an opinion. I've read a few of your threads and you seem hesitant to commit yourself - but lots of toe dipping. Just my perception.

I personally do not see any shock that Freemasons are involved in politics and public service in general. This is not necessarily a bad or a good thing, that would ultimately depend upon your perspective. But they are just as likely to be involved in many other professions.

Even if they were involved in politics they would be forbidden to discuss this at lodge meetings. Similarly any business dealings. Bear in mind that some people can be very pious when it comes to rules like this. We are all liable to such austerity when we value and define ourselves by a set of rules we respect. If you take a cross section of those famous Freemasons and look objectively at their lives and careers you will not find much in the way of deviancy. Proportionate to any organization of people you will find the great, mediocre and the 'improvers', to prove the rule you will find the odd exception too.

Now try looking at it from another perspective - how many revolutionaries and pioneers are there in those lists?

I agree, i am not saying they are bad, but people may perceive it that way after i just want to make a point or two. I am aware a lot of good and capable people are inside and i could say i like them more than many other societies. I was surprised by reaction i got when i posted first reply about politics involved in some earlier thread, so i was wondering, why such a reaction to something everyone knows.

After a bit of research i can say most dangerous are fundamental sites with A LOT of disinformation. I can spot them mile away but i doubt someone who just googled for Freemasonry can. Maybe it's time someone starts making sites about pedophile priests, at least they would be based on truth.

About commitment, no worries, i am just interested in many topics and when you are getting more info it's even important not to commit to much to anything, so you can stay as objective as you can, especially when you get all those nwo-satan scare sites and similar.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
(...)
But that isn't even an argument, but is simply rhetoric. You presume to know what people talk about inside a building just because it is big. The fallacy there is obvious.

If a building is big, in the mid of some city where most people can't afford even a toilet without a credit, yes, we talk about politics or religion. Or some big corporation which is as politics today anyway.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by sb2012

This is from Israel...

The pillars of jachin and Boaz, Its a stargate motif basicly. The whole of the masonic order is based on the taking of magic mushrooms, sitting in the inner pyramid chamber and communicating with universal spirits. I dont doubt that soul possession has a hand to play in all this ritualistic who-hah. I personally have done psyechedilic mushrooms and can say first hand that a stargate in your mind is a possibilty. Ill refer you to this guys website for further study thebravenewworldorder.blogspot.com...