Challenge to ALL to prove belief.

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posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam

lol but that's logic. You take the action that in your head has WORKED BEFORE for other people, so you give the logic a high probability of success. You don't just assume it'll work.


Uhmm no... Sometimes in a situation like that you don't know of anyone else who was in that situation. I didn't mention any of that, you added that. So you can't base the probability of success on that.


When I say all the cons/pros stuff that your brain does, it does it in split second. When you think you believe something, it's just your brain deducing the reality of something based on the probability of its existance COMBINED with your own fears and preconceptions. If you REMOVE the fears and preconceptions, then all you have left with is actual evidence.


And what part of your brain does that? Although I know that it makes decisions in split seconds. But that is also a belief. Just like the belief that it's your brain that actually makes the decisions and not your mind. Your brain deducing the reality of something still involves judgement, which is partly based on belief.




posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam
I am trying to be very NON-confrontational in these posts. Just logical but calm. I don't wanna make people hate me and make enemies, that'd pointless to me. It wouldn't actually really harm my personal existance, but it is not my goal
So don't take anything I say here ever personally against you, (that means anyone), but I may have something to say against your argument
. Does this mean we can't be friends? *stupified look* Nah!

Oh yeah, speaking of friendships. Don't people usually become friends with those who share their beliefs as well? Like attracts like? Because they don't like having to argue with their "Friends" about everything, so they find like-minded people. But what if NO ONE had any beliefs ever, wouldn't EVERYONE be like-minded to everyone else?


One big happy friggin disfunctional family!


Hey lilblam, I BELIEVE what you say about being NON-confrontational. So, does this make me ignorant? Do I really know for sure you want to be NON-confrontational? No, I don't. However, I can choose to believe what you say. I can also dig through your posts and find statements by you that others and I would deem confrontational. Does that mean I shouldn't believe what you say now? No, of course not. Because I believe you really aren't trying to cause problems with people. Get it?



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 01:48 PM
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And once again...

Judging from your posts in this thread. I believe your title should've been: "Challenge to all to prove belief".



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam
************
Belief in absolutely anything, for any reason, at any time, is absolutely unnecessary and ignorant.
************

I'd like someone to come up with an EXAMPLE of when belief is NECESSARY, so I can see if I can show them that their reason for that is false. Also, how about an example where belief is even BENEFICIAL!


I certainly hope someone already said this as it's Philosophy 101, (but just in case ) the belief that the chair that held you up yesterday, and the day before, and the day before WILL hold you up today is definitely beneficial. If you didn't take these everyday shortcuts, you'd starve. Stopping to inspect the design of the same chair everyday, contacting the chair engineers, manufacturers, comparing pictures of yesterday's chair with today's to make sure it hasn't changed, calling physicists to ensure gravity still works the same as yesterday, etc...

Before taking that chance on a BELIEF that the chair will hold when you sit down is UNNECESSARY.

Therefore, a belief can be NECESSARY AND BENEFICIAL.



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by TheBandit795

Originally posted by lilblam

lol but that's logic. You take the action that in your head has WORKED BEFORE for other people, so you give the logic a high probability of success. You don't just assume it'll work.


Uhmm no... Sometimes in a situation like that you don't know of anyone else who was in that situation. I didn't mention any of that, you added that. So you can't base the probability of success on that.


When I say all the cons/pros stuff that your brain does, it does it in split second. When you think you believe something, it's just your brain deducing the reality of something based on the probability of its existance COMBINED with your own fears and preconceptions. If you REMOVE the fears and preconceptions, then all you have left with is actual evidence.


And what part of your brain does that? Although I know that it makes decisions in split seconds. But that is also a belief. Just like the belief that it's your brain that actually makes the decisions and not your mind. Your brain deducing the reality of something still involves judgement, which is partly based on belief.


Ok maybe not know if someone did something like that, but based on your past experience of SIMILAR experiences or something else that leads you to pick ONE choice over the other. You logically deduce that by making a certain choice you have a chance of success. It is based on what you already KNOW or ASSUME. So often that choice IS based on a belief, but just because it works doesn't mean the belief was justified and needed. What you think you believe can sometimes just as easily be wrong. If you know something, then it cannot be wrong unless you were wrong. But if you are wrong, that means you never really knew it in the first place, but assumed you did.



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by 29MV29

Originally posted by lilblam
I am trying to be very NON-confrontational in these posts. Just logical but calm. I don't wanna make people hate me and make enemies, that'd pointless to me. It wouldn't actually really harm my personal existance, but it is not my goal
So don't take anything I say here ever personally against you, (that means anyone), but I may have something to say against your argument
. Does this mean we can't be friends? *stupified look* Nah!

Oh yeah, speaking of friendships. Don't people usually become friends with those who share their beliefs as well? Like attracts like? Because they don't like having to argue with their "Friends" about everything, so they find like-minded people. But what if NO ONE had any beliefs ever, wouldn't EVERYONE be like-minded to everyone else?


One big happy friggin disfunctional family!


Hey lilblam, I BELIEVE what you say about being NON-confrontational. So, does this make me ignorant? Do I really know for sure you want to be NON-confrontational? No, I don't. However, I can choose to believe what you say. I can also dig through your posts and find statements by you that others and I would deem confrontational. Does that mean I shouldn't believe what you say now? No, of course not. Because I believe you really aren't trying to cause problems with people. Get it?


lol don't take my word for it. That was just my perception of what my goal is, and part of it is to not be confrontational. This is just my opinion! Your opinion could be that I'm an asshole
who knows



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam

If you know something, then it cannot be wrong unless you were wrong. But if you are wrong, that means you never really knew it in the first place, but assumed you did.


You've just described a whole lot of scientists and skeptics there.



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by TheBandit795
And once again...

Judging from your posts in this thread. I believe your title should've been: "Challenge to all to prove belief".


Ok I'll change it. Because logically it would make more sense to put what you said in the title, as it corresponds with the actual goal of the post. My actual title contradicts my reason for the post. Not cuz you believe it .. nah! Cuz that's the truth
Thanks for noticing too...



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:23 PM
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Lilbam, you are interchanging 'beliefs' and 'knowledge' as though the same thing. They are not.

Any belief CAN be wrong, or might be wrong...but that's part of any belief system.

I don't KNOW that Lex Luther hasn't replaced all the atmosphere with poision since my last breathe, but I BELIEVE he hasn't and my next breathe won't kill me.

So I breathe...and don't die from self asfixiation. One day, Lex may prove my BELIEF wrong, but he hasn't yet. Until that time, my BELIEF is necesary to my survival and quite beneficial.



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by RANT

Originally posted by lilblam
************
Belief in absolutely anything, for any reason, at any time, is absolutely unnecessary and ignorant.
************

I'd like someone to come up with an EXAMPLE of when belief is NECESSARY, so I can see if I can show them that their reason for that is false. Also, how about an example where belief is even BENEFICIAL!


I certainly hope someone already said this as it's Philosophy 101, (but just in case ) the belief that the chair that held you up yesterday, and the day before, and the day before WILL hold you up today is definitely beneficial. If you didn't take these everyday shortcuts, you'd starve. Stopping to inspect the design of the same chair everyday, contacting the chair engineers, manufacturers, comparing pictures of yesterday's chair with today's to make sure it hasn't changed, calling physicists to ensure gravity still works the same as yesterday, etc...

Before taking that chance on a BELIEF that the chair will hold when you sit down is UNNECESSARY.

Therefore, a belief can be NECESSARY AND BENEFICIAL.


You don't have to check the physics every time you sit on it, you remember. You rely on your memory of the past success of that chair. The memory is what developed from observation and experience. Not belief! The first time you sat down on this char, did you believe it would hold you up? What if the minute you sat down it crumbled to the floor? You had no way of knowing really, the very FIRST time. But after a while you give thie chair higher and higher probability of success each consecutive time that you sit on it, based on observation. You don't have to believe that it will work, you simply KNOW that it has a high chance of working!



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:24 PM
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Memory can be faked.



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by TheBandit795

Originally posted by lilblam

If you know something, then it cannot be wrong unless you were wrong. But if you are wrong, that means you never really knew it in the first place, but assumed you did.


You've just described a whole lot of scientists and skeptics there.


That's their mistake. They assume truth based on evidence. Why not have a GOOD CHANCE based on evidence and past knowledge, but not TRUTH. Truth is only ONE, and it's 100% true no matter what. If it is a TON of evidence, it can still be falst in the end! Talks like a duck, walks like a duck, smells like a duck, but it's just me in a duck costume with duck perfume
*Quack!*



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:26 PM
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I finally decided to check out the dictionary www.m-w.com...

Main Entry: belief
Pronunciation: b&-'lEf
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English beleave, probably alteration of Old English gelEafa, from ge-, associative prefix + lEafa; akin to Old English lyfan
Date: 12th century
1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam
You don't have to believe that it will work, you simply KNOW that it has a high chance of working!


You just described every belief system. I can't KNOW something will work and not believe it also.

KNOWING something has a high probability isn't really knowing anything at all. It's a belief. I KNOW it worked in the past, so I BELIEVE it will work now.



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by RANT
Lilbam, you are interchanging 'beliefs' and 'knowledge' as though the same thing. They are not.

Any belief CAN be wrong, or might be wrong...but that's part of any belief system.

I don't KNOW that Lex Luther hasn't replaced all the atmosphere with poision since my last breathe, but I BELIEVE he hasn't and my next breathe won't kill me.

So I breathe...and don't die from self asfixiation. One day, Lex may prove my BELIEF wrong, but he hasn't yet. Until that time, my BELIEF is necesary to my survival and quite beneficial.


Why do you believe he hasn't? Why can you just stop at the NOT knowing? Every new breath you don't have to believe he didn't, that can be false. Why not just breathe and see for yourself. Does belief in your safety of breathing and other things comfort you and keep you sane? If you didn't believe in the fact that your environment is relatively safe, would you go nuts with every new breath?

Not necessarily! So you don't know if your next breath will succeed, but you sense no evidence of change in the atmosphere, so there's a chance that nothing happened. Of course it can be invisible poison, but you dunno that. So why replace your lack of knowledge with belief in something that makes you feel better? Why not just stick with "I dunno" instead of "I dunno, but I believe it's safe".



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam

If you know something, then it cannot be wrong unless you were wrong. But if you are wrong, that means you never really knew it in the first place, but assumed you did.


Isnt assuming like believing? If you were positive that you knew something, but ended up not knowing, is it not safe to say that you believed it was true? The definition of assume itself contradicts everything that you have said.

Assume: To believe to be true without knowing. To presume or take for granted.

Believe: To be convinced of, know or feel that an idea or situation or way of behaving is true.

from: The Newbury House Dictionary of American English.
Dont those sound very similar to you?

[Edited on 8-1-2004 by Milk]



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by TheBandit795
Memory can be faked.


Yup it can, but that's all we have. If you remove all our memory, we'd know absolutely nothing and experience nothing. If we did experience, we would not know we did cuz immediately it would be gone in a split second after the experience. So we rely on our senses, logic, calculations, and so forth. Why rely on belief? You don't have to rely on anything, but just BE! Don't assume! Why can't you just "exist" without assumptions or beliefs to make it easier to go from day to day without worrying about dying every second. So don't worry! Just be! Interesting that for humans it's so hard to not care one way or another, and it comforts them to pretend something is safe, a false sense of security is better than none. Well isn't false sense of security WORSE than none?



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:31 PM
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"Why not just stick with "I dunno" instead of "I dunno, but I believe it's safe".

I sincerely don't see a difference. Your premis would require every assertion, scientific or otherwise to begin at ground zero all over again: I think therefore I am (or whatever) just to prove you can breathe or fly to the moon or not fall through floors.

The position you are arguing is the infallibility of Nihilism. That nothing can be taken for granted, or believed and everything is relative, but this statement.

Fine, I agree that's a tantilizing assertion...too bad you can't share it with anyone as we don't exist. And language is a private excercise in nonsense that only exists in your head. Everything is masterbation. And with that, I'll leave you to it.



[Edited on 8-1-2004 by RANT]



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam

That's their mistake. They assume truth based on evidence. Why not have a GOOD CHANCE based on evidence and past knowledge, but not TRUTH. Truth is only ONE, and it's 100% true no matter what. If it is a TON of evidence, it can still be falst in the end! Talks like a duck, walks like a duck, smells like a duck, but it's just me in a duck costume with duck perfume
*Quack!*


These people I'm talking about did exactly what you're talking about. They criticised the wright brothers based on their evidence and past knowledge

I can't rememberthe site right now, but I'll have it for you today or tomorrow.



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by TheBandit795
I finally decided to check out the dictionary www.m-w.com...

Main Entry: belief
Pronunciation: b&-'lEf
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English beleave, probably alteration of Old English gelEafa, from ge-, associative prefix + lEafa; akin to Old English lyfan
Date: 12th century
1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence



3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

And that's the problem isn't it? Why does evidence have to convince you of truth? Just see stuff for what it is, EVIDENCE. And POSSIBILITIES. But why assume it's true!
How much evidence did it take to convince someone that God exists? Imagine how much evidence it could take to convince them afterwards that God, infact, does NOT exist. That's almost impossible for some people after their belief is strong enough. Belief tends to ignore evidence to the contrary!





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