Originally posted by lilblam
This arguing back and forth about existence of God on my other thread led to nowhere and didn't seem to change anyone's mind on the matter. Here's a better way, and this is for anyone reading this.

Why in the hell are you wasting your time trying to change peoples' minds? It's not that they resist, it's more that they're incapable of seeing reality. They've traded reality for comfortable pretension. I don't even think it's voluntary. It takes a certain mental blindness to place your life in the hands of blind faith. It's not something of which you can convince them otherwise. It's more of a disease or syndrome with no cure, or straight-forward brainwashing. Either way, there is no way you're going to rid these people of their affliction. They love fear. It keeps them humble. I don't try to change anyone. I just analyze them, and try to figure out why they're so confused and scared. They can only find the truth themselves. Some never do. The best I can figure, it's just a built in weakness and gullibility.

[Edited on 1-8-2004 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by lilblam
I know the sun is shining in my window right now, and that's also a fact. No belief necessary!

Sorry dude. Wrong again. You PERCEIVE the sun is shining through your window. It's not a fact. You may be able to feel it's warmth and see it's light, but how do you know for 100% that it's really there and that you're not imagining the whole sensation?
I'm afraid that is a belief.

You are not looking deep enough.

Good call, was hoping someone would notice that. BUT. I never stated any knowledge about the actual reality of it. The thing I perceive and humans call "the Sun" is emitting light through my window at this moment, and that part is true. I never said I know exactly what is indeed happening. The sun IS shining through my window, but if someone else shows up and says it's actually a huge alien flashlight, and demonstrates it, I'll STILL say the sun is shining through my window. Why? Because the alien flashlight has a different name on Earth We call the damn thing the sun, and it shines through windows as per our observation. So I don't know the actual reality behind what's happening, but even if someone shows up to me and says "it's really a goat pissing through the window" I'll still say "I call that goat the sun, and the piss I call light".

Okay, let me throw another pie in the party.

Judging from your posts in the thread. I believe your title should've been: "Challenge to all to prove belief".

I never said faith was important...only that it isn't necessarily illogical...

Well, you don't believe you will die. You give yourself a low probability of survival based on knowledge of other people's rate of success after jumping the bridge. You also see the height of the bridge, consider the gravity of the planet, and the flimsiness of the human body, and you understand that the probability is very low. It does exist. You do NOT attempt it not because of belief but because of FEAR. You simply don't want to risk seeing if you will fall into the low percentage of survivors because it may end your life. Same example with a coin toss. You don't have to believe that it will land on tails. You can always toss it and find out, but you also do not FEAR tossing the coin because the probability of a coin toss being of harm to you is low based on past observation of people tossing coins. So given your high probability of survival after tossing a coin to see if it does land on tails or not, you do not fear doing so!

Ahh, but isn't fear a belief? And often, an illogical one. A child fears the dark, because of what they "believe" is there....

Originally posted by lilblam
I believe in nothing, and I function just fine. Why would you attribute belief to our daily functions? Or rather, how do you connect them to each other to make our functions so dependent on belief?

You believe you believe in nothing, you also believe you function just fine.

We can run logical circles all day here.

Originally posted by Satyr

Originally posted by lilblam
This arguing back and forth about existence of God on my other thread led to nowhere and didn't seem to change anyone's mind on the matter. Here's a better way, and this is for anyone reading this.

Why in the hell are you wasting your time trying to change peoples' minds? It's not that they resist, it's more that they're incapable of seeing reality. They've traded reality for comfortable pretension. I don't even think it's voluntary. It takes a certain mental blindness to place your life in the hands of blind faith. It's not something of which you can convince them otherwise. It's more of a disease or syndrome with no cure, or straight-forward brainwashing. Either way, there is no way you're going to rid these people of their affliction. They love fear. It keeps them humble. I don't try to change anyone. I just analyze them, and try to figure out why they're so confused and scared. They can only find the truth themselves. Some never do. The best I can figure, it's just a built in weakness and gullibility.

[Edited on 1-8-2004 by Satyr]

You know though, based on evidence that I have, this whole belief thing is a system of purposeful control. The controllers are creating spirituality, new age, religions, other beliefs, and set them slightly different to allow for opposition. They require humanity to be in blind belief and to be DEVOID of any TRUTH. And anyone who argues for LACK OF TRUTH but instead thinks DECEPTION AND LIES are important, I'd have to beg to differ.

Question: Belief is blind faith in someone's statement or an idea that is not based necessarily on any evidence. Sure it can have evidence, but does that merit for belief? The reality of our world with the controllers is NOT my belief, it just is a logical deduction based on observation and research, and also it can be TOTALLY WRONG. It is a possibility, just like the inventor of a lightbulb was doing calculations and saw a possibility and had an idea. He didn't BELIEVE that the lightbulb would necessarily 100% work as he expected, but he had plenty of evidence to suggest it MIGHT. Why do I need to believe anything when I can just research and see where things lead? Why assume I found the answer!

For example: Scientists see the universe expanding so they say it might've started with the Big Bang. That's a theory, an assumption. It's not a belief, it's a logical deduction based on observation. They are not claiming THAT IS what it truly is, they just said that BASED ON OUR EVIDENCE that is a POSSIBILITY. That is all I say. There are many possibilities and some have more evidence than others. Some things are completely 100% known to be true without exception. Others are only backed up by evidence.

Sadly, many things are assumped to be true without any possible evidence, and they have an ARMY of people backing this up. Religion. They are composed of people who KNOW it's a deception but promote it for the sake of getting rich, and others who truly believe it, but without any reason.

Who do you think is smarter, the people who KNOW for a fact that religion is based on lie sandwiches, or those who believe it's true and live their life by it and pray to their invisible God. I'm not asking who is right, but who indeed is wiser.

Originally posted by Gazrok
I never said faith was important...only that it isn't necessarily illogical...

Well, you don't believe you will die. You give yourself a low probability of survival based on knowledge of other people's rate of success after jumping the bridge. You also see the height of the bridge, consider the gravity of the planet, and the flimsiness of the human body, and you understand that the probability is very low. It does exist. You do NOT attempt it not because of belief but because of FEAR. You simply don't want to risk seeing if you will fall into the low percentage of survivors because it may end your life. Same example with a coin toss. You don't have to believe that it will land on tails. You can always toss it and find out, but you also do not FEAR tossing the coin because the probability of a coin toss being of harm to you is low based on past observation of people tossing coins. So given your high probability of survival after tossing a coin to see if it does land on tails or not, you do not fear doing so!

Ahh, but isn't fear a belief? And often, an illogical one. A child fears the dark, because of what they "believe" is there....

Exactly. It is, and is just as stupid as belief is! And I don't mean the natural instinct that makes you jump when you're endanger or run or something. I mean the preconception of danger without evidence to support it, and therefore avoidance of something based on that preconception (belief).

Your fear of jumping from the Bridge just means you don't know 100% that you will be safe. If you were a robot (flimsy as a human) and only looked at probabilities, you would not jump either based on the low probability of survival. No need for fear, just knowing what your action will possibly lead to is enough! So fear is more instinctual than logical.

[Edited on 8-1-2004 by lilblam]

Originally posted by lilblam


The thing I perceive and humans call "the Sun" is emitting light through my window at this moment, and that part is true. I never said I know exactly what is indeed happening. The sun IS shining through my window, but if someone else shows up and says it's actually a huge alien flashlight, and demonstrates it, I'll STILL say the sun is shining through my window. Why? Because the alien flashlight has a different name on Earth We call the damn thing the sun, and it shines through windows as per our observation. So I don't know the actual reality behind what's happening, but even if someone shows up to me and says "it's really a goat pissing through the window" I'll still say "I call that goat the sun, and the piss I call light".

That's not what I meant. You're only looking at things as you perceive them and as they exist within your perceived existence. I'm not talking about something as trivial as wether the Sun physically exists in our recognised Solar System.
What I'm trying to explain is that NOTHING that you perceive could be real. Everything could be false. Therefore everything that you deem to be fact is possibly a belief.
You perceive that you live on this planet. You perceive that I am a guy at the other end of a telephone line, typing away. But how do you know that I exist? How do you know if anything exists? Even Science and logic could be a creation of your own mind on a different plane of existence.
Everything is a belief until you have the Truth.

[Edited on 8-1-2004 by Leveller]

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by 29MV29
lilblam,

Why are you trying so hard to sway people away from God? These are your own personal views and yes, YOUR OWN BELIEFS. Whether or not you want to admit it, YOU BELIEVE there is no God. I really don't care that you don't believe in him; my point is that belief is important to all humans. If there was no belief in life, we wouldn't posses an imagination and wouldn’t have airplanes, cars and all the technological wonders we all marvel at today. Yes, to me, if you don't believe in something you have nothing.

Me, I believe in intelligent design. I see the miraculous ways the universe, our Earth and nature work and I do believe that something or someone does posses superior knowledge than we can even contemplate. I also believe in love and my future, for if I don't what do I really have.

I am not trying hard to sway people away from God, nor am I swaying anyone away from Santa Clause. I am also NEVER going to try to sway anyone away from the Tooth Fairy.

You said they are my own personal beliefs? It's not that I don't want to admit it, I just don't have any. I do NOT believe there is no God. The God that's described by our religions I KNOW FOR FACT does not exist. No belief necessary at all. None. I know the sun is shining in my window right now, and that's also a fact. No belief necessary! We WOULD have cars and all other technology without belief, remember, most scientists are completely anti-religious. They believe nothing. Not believing NEVER impedes my imagination and creativity. Don't get that confused with blind faith in something.

No, you're wrong. We would not have a lot of things we have today if other people didn't BELIEVE it was really possible. The entire scientific community scoffed the Wright brothers stating "heavier than air flight is impossible".
Also, I don’t understand how you can say that you know there is no God. Absolutely no one knows for absolute sure that there really is or is not a God. Stating that you know there is no god and that belief is ignorant is ignorant.
What about the colonists going against the mighty British army? Did they know or believe they could win and start a new country? I think a lot of people will see my point and I’m hoping you do too. Beliefs aren’t stupid or ignorant; they’re part of the human psyche and should be embraced.

ok good point everything can be an illusion and I know pretty much nothing.

But I don't pretend to know. Inside the Matrix, if someone says the sun is shining through the window, are they correct? Well they are correct that their perception is THAT which they described, but those outside the matrix KNOW it is an illusion. Still, based on their experience and perception, they are correct. But those outside the matrix could be the ones INSIDE the matrix, and those inside the matrix could actually be the ones outside. Those outside could just perceive it wrong and backwards. So honestly, neither would really know the truth, they would be assuming. But what I observe is TRUE to my own perception.

This leads to the question, IS there an ultimate objective reality at ALL? Or is EVERYTHING an illusion and nothing is indeed real. Maybe that means EVERYONE is correct in their beliefs/assumptions because for THEM that reality is true. For others their reality is true.

But is there ONE OBJECTIVE reality that is true no matter what? Hmm

Originally posted by lilblam

I mean the preconception of danger without evidence to support it, and therefore avoidance of something based on that preconception (belief).

And without that preconception of danger without the evidence to prove it, Gazrok would've most problably hurt himself in that situation.

Another thing. Let's say you find yourself in a life or death situation in which a false move would leave you dead and that the time to do something is running out quickly. Do you think you have the time for logic? To think out everything rationally and weigh out the pros and cons of the next action you take? You take the action that you believe can bring you to safety (unless you're paralysed with fear).

Also, when I said the sun is shining, that IS simply what I perceive. I never did claim that's objectively true. That's a good point. I don't believe it, I just perceive it.

Another thing, if Columbus didn't believe that the Earth was round. (Yes, he believed it). He wouldn't of crossed the atlantic ocean. (more native americans would've been alive though).

Originally posted by 29MV29
No, you're wrong. We would not have a lot of things we have today if other people didn't BELIEVE it was really possible. The entire scientific community scoffed the Wright brothers stating "heavier than air flight is impossible".
Also, I don’t understand how you can say that you know there is no God. Absolutely no one knows for absolute sure that there really is or is not a God. Stating that you know there is no god and that belief is ignorant is ignorant.
What about the colonists going against the mighty British army? Did they know or believe they could win and start a new country? I think a lot of people will see my point and I’m hoping you do too. Beliefs aren’t stupid or ignorant; they’re part of the human psyche and should be embraced.

Wait.. they didn't first believe something was possible. It takes believe to think that something is IMPOSSIBLE. So they just removed their belief that SOMETHING was impossible. Why would you ever think that something is impossible? Some things may be stupid, unbelievable, crazy, unnecessary, terrifying, and what not... but possible

So until someone believes that something is impossible, ALL and EVERY invention is potentially going to be made. If we all thought everything was possible then humanity would be FAR ahead now. Because religions banned creativity and honest doubd and questioning of their doctrines and called it SIN and HERESY, humans are SO FAR delayed in their advancement.

Belief, or faith, is essentially based on no or very little evidence. People who tend to be religious also tend to believe in things not related to religion more easily too.
They tend to believe in things that even conflict with their own religious belief! For example, many christians believe in David Icke's theory of reptiles ("demons"), but think he is "anti-christ." This is the "genius" (in terms of controlling the masses) of the New Age, throw in a bunch of stuff, like Jesus being an ascended master, angels being aliens etc. and you're pretty sure to catch a bunch of fishes. It's really mind boggling that so many have been brainwashed into believing in things merely because someone somewhere talked about it and put it in print. No wonder that propaganda works so well, as the Nazis showed.

Originally posted by TheBandit795

Originally posted by lilblam

I mean the preconception of danger without evidence to support it, and therefore avoidance of something based on that preconception (belief).

And without that preconception of danger without the evidence to prove it, Gazrok would've most problably hurt himself in that situation.

Another thing. Let's say you find yourself in a life or death situation in which a false move would leave you dead and that the time to do something is running out quickly. Do you think you have the time for logic? To think out everything rationally and weigh out the pros and cons of the next action you take? You take the action that you believe can bring you to safety (unless you're paralysed with fear).

lol but that's logic. You take the action that in your head has WORKED BEFORE for other people, so you give the logic a high probability of success. You don't just assume it'll work. When I say all the cons/pros stuff that your brain does, it does it in split second. When you think you believe something, it's just your brain deducing the reality of something based on the probability of its existance COMBINED with your own fears and preconceptions. If you REMOVE the fears and preconceptions, then all you have left with is actual evidence.

Originally posted by lilblam
This leads to the question, IS there an ultimate objective reality at ALL? Or is EVERYTHING an illusion and nothing is indeed real. Maybe that means EVERYONE is correct in their beliefs/assumptions because for THEM that reality is true. For others their reality is true.

But is there ONE OBJECTIVE reality that is true no matter what? Hmm

Well, to some that one objective reality could be God.
I guess the one thing that you can hold onto is that you do actually exist within your own perception. I know I do!!! But I also recognise that nothing can be discounted or taken for granted.


Hooray for Descartes, who was nice enough to give us the statement "I think, therefore I am".

Originally posted by Helioform

Belief, or faith, is essentially based on no or very little evidence. People who tend to be religious also tend to believe in things not related to religion more easily too.
They tend to believe in things that even conflict with their own religious belief! For example, many christians believe in David Icke's theory of reptiles ("demons"), but think he is "anti-christ." This is the "genius" (in terms of controlling the masses) of the New Age, throw in a bunch of stuff, like Jesus being an ascended master, angels being aliens etc. and you're pretty sure to catch a bunch of fishes. It's really mind boggling that so many have been brainwashed into believing in things merely because someone somewhere talked about it and put it in print. No wonder that propaganda works so well, as the Nazis showed.

Like I said, there is evidence that all our religions are created on purpose for control of the masses, and not just randomly created by our gullible minds. The nazis didn't accidentally and randomly hate the Jews, they were taught to believe lies about Jews and so forth until the whole country did it. Well if only takes a few smart men to dupe an entire country, what do you think it would take a few smart Aliens to dupe an entire world? Piece of cake

I am trying to be very NON-confrontational in these posts. Just logical but calm. I don't wanna make people hate me and make enemies, that'd pointless to me. It wouldn't actually really harm my personal existance, but it is not my goal So don't take anything I say here ever personally against you, (that means anyone), but I may have something to say against your argument . Does this mean we can't be friends? *stupified look* Nah!

Oh yeah, speaking of friendships. Don't people usually become friends with those who share their beliefs as well? Like attracts like? Because they don't like having to argue with their "Friends" about everything, so they find like-minded people. But what if NO ONE had any beliefs ever, wouldn't EVERYONE be like-minded to everyone else?

One big happy friggin disfunctional family!