I will eat my hat if you can do this...

5- Read the Bible

I have. I know that MAN distorted the WORD OF GOD. God and Jesus have been redefined so many times it's hard to know what to believe. Thats why you must pray to God and HE will reveal the truth to you.

6- Ponder God's Plan

Can you or the author of that website read the mind of God?

7- Understanding religious delusion

What this dude refers to as "delusion" I refer to as reality. See the author does not know God so how could he possibly understand? He is a outsider looking in, never understanding, never comprehending. Now he uses santa claus as a example. Do you know that "santa" was actually based on a real person? Google Saint Nicholas

8- Think about Near Death Experiences

Huh? I don't understand how the author throws this in there, LOL. They have been documented cases where non believers had this experience and they converted. If anything this proves my case for God!

9- Understand ambiguity

The author is starting to reach for straws now I see. His website is ambiguous! So far I have seen no "proof" so i will answer 1 more question and have some breakfast!

10- Watch the offering plate

Ok here we go. Let me explain this to anyone who hates God and Jesus because of what PEOPLE DO IN "HIS NAME". People love to blame God and Jesus for the evils that men do in Their name. Do you really think God approves of the so called martyrs who blow people up? Does anyone really think they are doing "God's work"? As soon as Jesus ascended into heaven and left the church in mans hands, thats when it all went awry. There are many things the church does that I do not approve of but that does not make me stop believing in God or Jesus! That would be stupid. I know man. I know they are fallible. God is not. Now I would go on and answer all 50 questions but I am hungry. I see the author grasping for straws to try and prove his case when he truly does not have a leg to stand on!

I guess in the end you will believe what you want to believe. So be it...

[edit on 21-8-2007 by _Mr.X_]

Originally posted by _Mr.X_
I have. I know that MAN distorted the WORD OF GOD. God and Jesus have been redefined so many times it's hard to know what to believe. Thats why you must pray to God and HE will reveal the truth to you.

cop out argument.

6- Ponder God's Plan

Can you or the author of that website read the mind of God?

apparently they're going off of the few places where people quote god....

pquote]
7- Understanding religious delusion

What this dude refers to as "delusion" I refer to as reality. See the author does not know God so how could he possibly understand?


that last part there... claiming exclusive knowledge of a phenomenon that can only be gained AFTER you admit to its existence... that's a fallacy.

He is a outsider looking in, never understanding, never comprehending.

outsiders looking in can understand a hell of a lot more than insiders most of the time.

Now he uses santa claus as a example. Do you know that "santa" was actually based on a real person? Google Saint Nicholas

no, actually santa comes from an amalgamation of sources... particularly germanic myth

8- Think about Near Death Experiences

Huh? I don't understand how the author throws this in there, LOL. They have been documented cases where non believers had this experience and they converted. If anything this proves my case for God!

no, it doesn't
the examining near death experiences we find that they aren't a universally similar phenomenon. there would be 2 forms: heaven and hell
but instead we don't have justt those...
and then we have the issue that it's quite clear that a neorchemical reaction is happening in people when they experience a near death experience

9- Understand ambiguity

The author is starting to reach for straws now I see. His website is ambiguous! So far I have seen no "proof" so i will answer 1 more question and have some breakfast!

no, the website is quite specific. it even has video clips explaining the arguments.....

10- Watch the offering plate

Ok here we go. Let me explain this to anyone who hates God and Jesus because of what PEOPLE DO IN "HIS NAME". People love to blame God and Jesus for the evils that men do in Their name.

well... plenty of times god has ordered a lot of evil... like several genocides that were ordered directly by god...
quite the nasty fictional character.

Do you really think God approves of the so called martyrs who blow people up?

according to the koran it does.

Does anyone really think they are doing "God's work"?

well, clearly the people doing it do...

As soon as Jesus ascended into heaven and left the church in mans hands, thats when it all went awry.

yeah, jesus.... that's another hole in your story. nobody seems to write about him during his supposed life

There are many things the church does that I do not approve of but that does not make me stop believing in God or Jesus! That would be stupid.

but if there was a god, wouldn't the morality set up by said being be powerful enough to stop it?

I know man. I know they are fallible.

just like every other being in the universe.

God is not.

prove it

Now I would go on and answer all 50 questions but I am hungry.

well... you could answer them later. i mean, wouldn't you like to see an atheist eat his hat?

I see the author grasping for straws to try and prove his case when he truly does not have a leg to stand on!

no, he has 2 to stand on... unless he lost them in some accident, which would be quite tragic.

the problem is that you've only attacked the headings of the arguments... did you even read the arguments themselves? there is quite a bit of text there, yet you only seem to address the tagline....

I guess in the end you will believe what you want to believe. So be it...

but i don't believe anything.
if i believe something, then my not collecting stamps is a hobby.

madnessinmysoul, I kind of figured I would get that type of response from you (and others). Believe what you want but you will never know the truth unless you seek it out for yourself.

When I say "pray to God" you say "cop out argument". Have you ever tried? I mean REALLY tried to seek out God? I doubt it.

"that last part there... claiming exclusive knowledge of a phenomenon that can only be gained AFTER you admit to its existence... that's a fallacy"

I was just like you once. I did not believe. How far I have come!

"outsiders looking in can understand a hell of a lot more than insiders most of the time"

sometimes

"no, actually santa comes from an amalgamation of sources... particularly germanic myth "

Prove it

"no, the website is quite specific. it even has video clips explaining the arguments"

OOO video clips! Wow!

"well... plenty of times god has ordered a lot of evil... like several genocides that were ordered directly by god..."

Think of God as a father and think of humans as unruly children. If you constantly keep telling your child to stop doing something and he does not listen what would you do? Punishment?

"according to the koran it does"

That is not my God

"well, clearly the people doing it do"

Those are the ones who give God a bad name.

"but if there was a god, wouldn't the morality set up by said being be powerful enough to stop it?"

It is called free will.

"well... you could answer them later. i mean, wouldn't you like to see an atheist eat his hat?"

Sooner or later you will. Things are about to happen on this earth. When the SHTF I wonder who you will cry out to?

"but i don't believe anything"

LOL soon you will.

night

Originally posted by _Mr.X_
madnessinmysoul, I kind of figured I would get that type of response from you (and others). Believe what you want but you will never know the truth unless you seek it out for yourself.

When I say "pray to God" you say "cop out argument". Have you ever tried? I mean REALLY tried to seek out God? I doubt it.

then you are wrong. i have honestly and earnestly tried to seek out god several times.

"that last part there... claiming exclusive knowledge of a phenomenon that can only be gained AFTER you admit to its existence... that's a fallacy"

I was just like you once. I did not believe. How far I have come!

how far you have fallen. you have shunned your own reason. here's the thing... i used to be just like YOU once. we've been in each other's shoes... and you're the one currently persisting in a dellusion

sometimes

most of the time.

Prove it

though santa claus is completely untopical...
look into the story of yule and how odin would play a very santa claus esque role.

OOO video clips! Wow!

i'm just saying, since you haven't really taken the time to look at the arguments and have only attacked taglines, you might want to at least watch the videos

Think of God as a father and think of humans as unruly children. If you constantly keep telling your child to stop doing something and he does not listen what would you do? Punishment?

yes... you're trying to justify genocide... very nice...

That is not my God

ah, but it is. same god, different perspective.

Those are the ones who give God a bad name.

they wouldn't need to, god gives god's self a bad name

It is called free will.

still, why is it that religious people don't behave exponenetially better than the non-religious?

Sooner or later you will. Things are about to happen on this earth. When the SHTF I wonder who you will cry out to?

how about you just attack the arguments and we'll discuss it now and i'll die happy and surrounded by friends while your empty threat floats away into nothingness.

LOL soon you will.

oh the arrogance.

It seems it's been three years and I've yet to have to eat a hat. I wonder what some of the newer Christians on this site would have to say with regard to these refutations of god.

can i play?
even if i am not a christian?
i'm at loose ends at the moment.



okay, here goes...only took me about 35 minutes, actually!
not bad!

----------

1. Try praying

i don't really know how. i prefer just talking to GOD in my head like i talk to a friend or even to my dog (whom i adore and talk to all the time when she and i are alone together)

2. Statistically analyze prayer

i don't know how that is possible. there is no way for me to collect that kind of data, since i don't really know who to ask. and even if i did, and could, i wouldn't know what to do with the numbers and data collected. i pay an accountant to keep up with my Ebay and Etsy sales! statistics are way beyond my mathematical means.
and frankly, i couldn't care less. (that doesn't confront me....as long as i get my money next friday!)

3. Look at all historical gods

i have! and i still do. they are infinitely fascinating, as are the goddesses. i like the goddesses better, though. they are bad-ass.

4. Think about science

i do! all the time. i probably think about science more than anything else, these days. science is applicable to every single aspect of human life, if you have that kind of mind and/or interest. i do.

5. Read the Bible

i have. i've read it so much that i don't need to read it much, anymore. i can thump the thumpers with my bare hands, anymore.

6. Ponder God's plan

i do. all the time. second only to pondering science, probably. GOD's plan is peace and unity for all souls and to eliminate hunger and war and envy and fear. but the free will thing makes it complicated and seemingly endless and pointless. but everyone would REALLY bitch if there was no free will.

7. Understand religious delusion

omg, do i have to? won't that make me deluded, too?

just kidding. i do understand it. that's why i have no regard for religion as superior to personal spirituality, either present or declined...in fact, i think religion is one of the biggest evils in this world, if not THE biggest.
i find many religions, outside of western christianity of all flavors, quite fascinating - especially the eastern ones such as taoism and buddhism. and i think the world of Hindu is absolutely gorgeous!
christianity is 100% anti-christ, though, imo. that is, from the insititutional level. i am not condemning any one for anything they believe but i am denouncing the doctrine in which so much fear, deception, and delusion is born.

8. Think about Near Death Experiences

i have. i have read and read and read at the NDERF website. i think i've got a pretty good handle on the whole process, even from a scientific perspective. i hope i never have to come back when i die. i think it would break my heart.

9. Understand ambiguity

this one has got to be a trick, right?
how can i understand something that is vague and/or uncertain in meaning? and perhaps intention?
i bet most people get stuck right here at #9, don't they?
:shk:

10. Watch the offering plate

where is it? what does it do?

11. Notice that there is no scientific evidence

for what?

12. See the magic

i not only see the magic...i do the magic. or at least a little tiny bit of it, when i am moved to forget my intentions.


13. Take a look at slavery

i do. everyday. there are slaves all around us, and they don't even know it.
at least back in the antebellum southern days, the slaves KNEW they were slaves and therefore could possibly escape one day...but these days, people think they are free but they are not at all free.

14. Examine Jesus' miracles

i have! i think several of them had to do with sound waves. in particular the water into wine thing.


15. Examine Jesus' resurrection

Jesus imploded...sending life and sentience into the inner cosmos. there is an outer cosmos - outer space and the universe...and then there is the inner cosmos. same place, more or less but inside us. we can go there ourselves, and while it is darker there than even out in the dark parts of space between the galaxies, it is still light enough to see by our own individual light. love makes the soul shine brighter, and sometimes it is brighter than the noonday sun!

16. Contemplate the contradictions

this is too vague of a question, and so is #11. i got away with a glib comment at #11 but i don't want to do that here. but then there is not enough time to explain such things in the same way that it is demanded but i will try to explain why and then address the question.
it is all about how a person sees things...if everything is cut and dried in the physical realm or not. i have always believed that all we see is NOT all there is, and it was partly from instinct and partly from personal experience.
as well, just about everyone is still existing within a dualistic orientation, and so it is not clear that the contradictions are actually juxtapositions that are both necessary and stimulating to the process of life and evolution.
creation, both seen and unseen, must maintain balance to maintain it's vibratory fabric of energy and matter - a homeostatic kind of balance. but yet, it cannot be a stagnant balance because death is a state of unchanging-ness. so we have to have the dynamics of the yin and the yang...the dark and the light.

Think, now: where would your good be if there were no evil and what would the world look like without shadow? Shadows are thrown by people and things. There's the shadow of my sword, for instance. But shadows are also cast by trees and living things. Do you want to strip the whole globe by removing every tree and every creature to satisfy your fantasy of a bare world? You're stupid.
- Mikhail Bulgakov, The Master and Margarita

17. Think about Leprechauns

i do. but when i do, they come out and smack me on the butt. they have mean little smiles. they don't like me. but i like them better than the attic trolls, even though i'm not sure attic trolls really exist. i have never seen them but i still do not trust the attic.

18. Imagine heaven

heaven? the sky? or some pillow tufted exclusive club for harp players?
i don't think that exists in that form.
there is either the outer cosmos or the inner cosmos.
i usually imagine a private beach house resort somewhere on Jupiter, in lieu of "heaven."
and no, i'm not telling anyone how to get there except by private written invitation. after i move in, that is.
i will probably be glad to invite you, though. good intelligent conversation is one of my wishes.

19. Notice that you ignore Jesus

[looks around]
who, me?
surely you jest.
sometimes i may not notice him, but once i know he's around, i do anything but ignore him!
and if that means instead ignoring his teachings, etc., then i say again, surely you jest!
that's enough said about all that, i think.

20. Notice your church

i don't have a church. don't need one, either. in fact, i would refuse one if it were offered to me. politely, of course, but firmly.

21. Understand Jesus' core message

i do.

LOVE GOD
LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS
LOVE YOUR ENEMIES
FEAR NOT
JUDGE NOT
SAY WHAT YOU MEAN AND MEAN WHAT YOU SAY

(and if you are accused by the churchians of being a devil, or being led by a devil, or fooled, or whatever, then put a notch in your belt!)

22. Count all the people God wants to murder

i can't count that high. i already told you about my difficulties with arithmetic.
i wish, though, that he would murder me.
but the more i ask, the less likely, it seems.
with my luck, i'll probably live to be one hundred and thirteen.
they say only the good die young...with every year that passes i realize just how evil i might actually be.


23. Listen to the Doxology

the what?

24. Ask why religion causes so many problems

i don't have to. i know why. but there's nothing i can do about it. only the religious can eliminate religion and by extension, all the associated problems.

25. Understand evolution and abiogenesis

i do. i don't know about abiogenesis in general, but i do see how those primordial sponge/creature/plants might have arisen from the mixture of proteins in the ocean that most likely were delivered in the payloads of meteors and comets that struck the earth when the solar system was still like a war-zone.
and then there is abiotic oil. obviously the earth herself is alive. so that gets rather deep for even me.
concerning evolution, i think i've got a more than decent handle on it, actually. but we can talk about all that another time.

(continued)

26. Notice that the Bible's author is not "all-knowing"

no doubt! i like that, actually. easier to relate to.

27. Think about life after death

i do. i have. i don't like that way of describing something that i don't see as anything other than a door between two places - a door that swings both ways and never shuts.
life after life?
how about there is just life.

28. Notice how many gods you reject

i have never rejected any god whatsoever! i suspect there is only the ONE, anyway. but the ONE is not one like a pencil or a hot dog is just one. this is a complex but simple sort of unity type one. you know how ant colonies work individually but yet all together, as a whole? and accomplish great things that seem impossible? without tongues or fingers or language or hand signals or anything?
kind of like that.
but playing dress-up/masquerade is good way to kill the UNENDING time while waiting for so many to come to their so-called senses and quit putting all their energy into KILLING each other instead of LOVING each other!

29. Think about communion

Whitley Streiber?

just kidding.
communion is hanging out, isn't it?
yeah, i commune.
unless you mean the Charles Manson kind of communing.
that i cannot do. and omg the mess! not to mention the shame and regret...

30. Examine God's sexism

GOD isn't a sexist! she made men, after all. and he made her.
she made him before he made her.
if you dig.

the first dying god-man story we know of, after all, wasn't a man at all!
it was InAnna. crucified when she went to visit her mean sister in the down-below...but those two little telly-tubbies that Enki sent followed his directions to a "T" and InAnna came back to life.

31. Understand that religion is superstition

i do. superstitious politics.

32. Talk to a theologian

*groan*
do i have to?
right now?
i have talked with a few of them within the last 60 days, i know - it was here at ATS so i do have proof.
[crosses the fingers of both hands behind back and pleads with puppy dog eyes] please don't make me have to do that today

33. Contemplate the crucifixion

i'm so over that.

34. Examine your health insurance policy

i don't have health insurance.
i have health instead. if i get sick, i will fix it.
i have before and i will again, if i need to.
but since it is all about mind rather than body, i really don't foresee illness in my future. trauma, maybe, but i can call 911.

35. Notice Jesus' myopia

near sightedness?
he didn't live long enough to develop that! it starts around 40 years old or so.

36. Realize that God is impossible

yep
im possible
i'm possible
didn't you see "Oh God, You Devil" with John Denver and George Burns?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d81c3aa9ad71.gif[/atsimg]

i've seen some pretty impossible things in recent years.
i daresay GOD is getting easier every day!


37. Think about DNA

again...i do! i have! i will. what about it?
it's awesome and fascinating and still so much about it waits for discovery.
profound stuff.

38. Contemplate the divorce rate among Christians

who cares?

39. Realize that Jesus was a jerk


well, yes, sometimes he is.
but aren't we all?
he isn't ever an asshole, at least not to me.
remember what mother said "be a friend to have a friend!"

40. Understand Christian motivations

i do. that is why i am not a christian nor will i ever convert. i would rather be pickled and buried in an expensive wasteful box when i die than become a christian. but god forbid either one.

41. Flip a coin

heads or tails?

42. Listen when "God talks"

i do. he doesn't talk like we do, though. most people have no inkling of how to listen.
i think that this question could be considered a good take-home assignment or project for many churchians.

43. Realize that a "hidden God" is impossible

nothing is impossible
but yeah, it's really just a case of most people's reluctance to look deeply into their own eyes when they stand at the bathroom mirror every morning.

44. Think about a Christian housewife

is that an innuendo?
i'm not really even bi-curious, though.
i'd rather think about science.


45. Consider Noah's Ark

consider it what?
these are too vague even for me.

46. Ponder Pascal's Wager

i had to look than one up - couldn't recall what it is.
GOD told me this, once:
"Either they will believe or they won't."

just like that.
and there was no concern or worry or anger or anything...just a statement. spoken to ease my own fretting about a particular incidence, actually. but it applies both far and wide as well as short and near.
it doesn't matter.
really.
not to GOD, it doesn't. "belief" can be a stepping stone to some powerful realizations...but they have more to do with one's own power to manifest and create than with any sort of religious necessity.

47. Contemplate Creation

again....I DO!
all the frickin' time.

48. Compare prayer to a lucky horseshoe

horseshoes are metal and curved like a "u"
prayer is....well, does someone write prayers? or do they make them up as they go along?
and why do they have to say it out loud in a crowd?
at thanksgiving and other food-centered gatherings, i help things move along by offering to "say the blessing."
it is the same one that i first learned in Romper Room:
GOD IS GREAT
GOD IS GOOD
LET US THANK HIM FOR THIS FOOD

when my dad was alive, he used to say this:
GRACE IN THE PARLOR
GRACE IN THE HALL
FOR GOD'S SAKE ANI [OR ANY OTHER NAME OF YOUR CHOICE]
DON'T EAT ALL!


i think i'll switch it up this year and do dad's prayer instead of mine.

49. Look at who speaks for God

i speak for GOD!
or do you mean 'who presumes to speak for GOD'?
it's not very convincing when those who profess to know GOD's mind and all sorts of privileged information don't even know what GOD is saying to them...because they never thought there was any reason to listen for GOD...they just drown GOD out all the time with their own monkey-chatter thoughts and never even realize they are 'talking' (thinking) over the top of GOD!
and when someone comes around who DOES listen and who also understands and wants to share...they scoff and scorn and judge and disregard.

50. Ask Jesus to appear

right now? i can't.
he showed up earlier today, about 4:00 am and has been hanging out ever since.
but i don't expect anyone to believe that, anyway.
everyone can continue to just think of him as 'my imaginary friend' - that's fine with me.
we like being alone, anyway.

oh yeah, and Goldy the dog, too.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


will give you five at a time. Here are the first five

Proof 1 Try praying.
Correct me if I am wrong but the Argument being used( Jesus' own words) is that if you ask and have faith nothing is impossible.The examples given are Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16

I really dont see how this statement portrays Jesus as a liar as the article indicates.Obviously 'prayers' or 'asking' the father in heaven for something which goes against Gods divine laws such as suffering, cant possibly be expected.Jesus knew this. Its like Praying or asking for a 5 sided square.Just cant happen.Individuality there has been countless examples of cancer being cured by faith. Those which are answered by God are considered by the church to be miracles. Clearly Jesus was not asking anyone in these passages to ask for miracles. This is your first logical counter-argument.


Proof #2 - Statistically analyze prayer.

How can science which is the study of matter,
Websters-"knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world."
analyze prayer? What is prayer? (any form of spiritual communion with a deity) As far as the bible is concerned God is a Spirit and we are to worship in spirit. Spirit having no relation and or material attributes what so ever which science studies,which your article is based on.

There is no argument here. Your proof #2 makes no sense.

Proof #3 - Look at historical gods

This is a very week argument. The Judea christian God acknowledged these Gods as being false. How could they be true? There can only be one true God.Only one Omnipotence God. And the Jedeo Christian Identified he.

Proof #4 - Think about science

Here we go again. Science is the study of matter.We as Christians are interested in the far vital question, spirit. Our thoughts, our minds, our wills, are intellect, all of which have no resemblance to our bodies, which science studies.It is the mind which splits atoms. Science can only tell us what we are made of, not what we are made for. How can anything be used properly without it knowing what it is made for? Would you use a razor to cut your fingernails? no of course not. Razors are made to shave.
Weak argument that has nothing to do with God.

Proof #5 - Read the Bible

Obviously this is something you have not done.At least in any kind of intellectual (spiritual) sense.
The problem I see with this article is that what is being said is totally out of context. The article says that "You open the book to a random page, and you find this " .. Who reads a book like this?
your proof #5 Read the Bible, is suggesting to read the bible, and then gives an example of one who does not. It is one thing to arbitrary read random passages out of context and another to read and or comprehend what you read. The only way to comprehend what you read is to read it thoroughly from beginning to end.

Five down 45 to go.

reply to post by queenannie38

reply to post by queenannie38


You're supposed to address the arguments, not their titles. It's quite clear that you failed to click even a single link.


reply to post by oliveoil


Before I begin, thank you for actually addressing points in the arguments instead of their titles alone.

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

will give you five at a time. Here are the first five

Proof 1 Try praying.
Correct me if I am wrong but the Argument being used( Jesus' own words) is that if you ask and have faith nothing is impossible.The examples given are Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16

More or less.

I really dont see how this statement portrays Jesus as a liar as the article indicates.Obviously 'prayers' or 'asking' the father in heaven for something which goes against Gods divine laws such as suffering, cant possibly be expected.

Now, this is a logical hole you've just dropped yourself right into. How are you arguing against a logical point by throwing in a completely unsupported assertion. Before you can throw in 'divine laws' you need to prove their existence.

Jesus knew this. Its like Praying or asking for a 5 sided square.

A Pentagon?

Just cant happen.Individuality there has been countless examples of cancer being cured by faith.

Except there haven't. There has yet to be a single verified claim of faith healing. If you could provide me with one, I'd love to see it.

Also, let me direct you to this website.
Why Won't God Heal Amputees?

So god repeatedly heals terminal cancer, but won't give someone who has plenty of faith a leg back if they lost it in a car accident? Seems a bit bogus to me.

Those which are answered by God are considered by the church to be miracles. Clearly Jesus was not asking anyone in these passages to ask for miracles. This is your first logical counter-argument.

There was an entire lack of logic in here. A logical counter-argument would be one that uses logic, you used pure dogma and doctrine to attack me. So it would be a doctrinal counter-argument at best. We're not discussing doctrine, we're working with reason here.

Proof #2 - Statistically analyze prayer.

How can science which is the study of matter,
Websters-"knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world."
analyze prayer? What is prayer? (any form of spiritual communion with a deity) As far as the bible is concerned God is a Spirit and we are to worship in spirit. Spirit having no relation and or material attributes what so ever which science studies,which your article is based on.

There is no argument here. Your proof #2 makes no sense.

Now you're just attacking the title. I was hoping for an actual argument. Look at prayer as a statistic in many ways. Prayer, as you defined, should also, according to doctrine you follow, have a positive effect on the material world through the lives of those who pray. Those who pray don't have a statistically significant better life than those who don't, Q.E.D. prayer doesn't help.

Proof #3 - Look at historical gods

This is a very week argument. The Judea christian God acknowledged these Gods as being false. How could they be true? There can only be one true God.Only one Omnipotence God. And the Jedeo Christian Identified he.

Not attacking you on your use of language, but I teach English and I want to clean up usage problems on this board.
'wea argument' It's not strong, it doesn't last 7 days.
'Judeo-Christian' common mistake, dont' worry about it.
'omnipotent God' You don't have to capitalize the adjectives, and omnipotence is the noun, not the adjective.

Now, to move on to the argument, there is none. You're simply saying 'my deity says so' That is not an argument in the least and is entirely avoiding the argument presented.

Proof #4 - Think about science

Here we go again. Science is the study of matter.

Well, I should have pointed this out accurately, but it is far more than the study of matter. It is the systematic study of the world around us through observation and experimentation through which we achieve testable results.

We as Christians are interested in the far vital question, spirit. Our thoughts, our minds, our wills, are intellect, all of which have no resemblance to our bodies, which science studies.

Ah, now here's something I can actually argue against. Our minds, our wills, our thoughts and intellect are directly wired to our bodies. How do I know this? How is this true?

Well, I've been drunk. I drank a lot of alcohol and it changed how my mind worked for a short period of time. Direct connection between mind and body established.

Another, non-voluntary way you can alter your brain is by having a serious fever, you get delirious and act differently.

Severe head trauma changes people's intellect, will, etc as well.
I've definitively established a link between the mind and the body.

It is the mind which splits atoms.

What? No, the mind only enabled us to figure it out. We can't use our minds to force apart atoms.

Science can only tell us what we are made of, not what we are made for.

This statement is problematic. One in that it implies that we are 'made for' something. There is no evidence that we were made by anything other than natural processes and thus the question of what we were made for is entirely moot.

How can anything be used properly without it knowing what it is made for?

Improvising. I used my house key to open a bottle of beer the other day. It's not a beer opener, but it works as one.

Would you use a razor to cut your fingernails? no of course not.

You can use a straight razor to cut your fingernails. It's a bit difficult, but you can.

Razors are made to shave.

Yes, but they aren't made through a natural process and can be used for other things, like as a weapon, haven't you heard of Sweeny Todd?

Weak argument that has nothing to do with God.

And your counter-argument avoids the issue entirely. If God is all powerful, at some point God encounters the realm of science through either actions or simple existence.

Proof #5 - Read the Bible

Obviously this is something you have not done.

Three times, going on fourth slowly. It’s quite a thick and a dense book. Have you read it yourself?

At least in any kind of intellectual (spiritual) sense.

Well, the first time I read it as a believer looking for greater understanding, so it was in a very ‘spiritual’ sense. The second time I read it as a personal study comparing the religious books of many different religions, so a very intellectual pursuit. The third I read as a way to better understand culture emerging from that religion and how that religion shaped history, also an intellectual pursuit.

Now I’m not going to put up with an argument that says I was reading it wrong, that’s just an improper argument that speaks of a level of hubris and arrogance that is rarely found in the normal person outside of their religious beliefs.

The problem I see with this article is that what is being said is totally out of context. The article says that "You open the book to a random page, and you find this " .. Who reads a book like this?

Plenty of people do it all around the world every Sunday. They read passages from the Bible completely out of context in large groups. They don’t take into account the historical context or the theological context nor the context within the book itself. It’s call mass or church, depending on where you go.

Your

These are not my proofs, I have never referred to them as my own. I simply find merit in many of them and wished to see how religious people responded to them.

proof #5 Read the Bible, is suggesting to read the bible, and then gives an example of one who does not. It is one thing to arbitrary read random passages out of context and another to read and or comprehend what you read. The only way to comprehend what you read is to read it thoroughly from beginning to end.

Have you? Have the majority of religious persons read their own Holy Book(s) cover to cover?
Aside from that, I can read plenty of pages from books at random without context and understand them quite clearly. I might not get their full meaning, but I still get a level of truth. We do this all the time, they’re called quotations.

Five down 45 to go.

Hardly. You didn’t even come up with a single proper counter-argument.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth

Why when there is no sincerity? I would if I had the time, but you would have to exicute some sincerity. You souls dont realize how much God loves your souls.

Look at Dogs un conditional love, God is in them creatures, hes given them a personality as a pet to humans.

I will always pray for you at mass madness.

Btw, if your athiest why is there madness in something that doesnt exist to you?

peace.

Dogs love you unconditionally because that is a pack function. They come and lick you because you are a leader, doesn't matter if you have 2 legs or 4.

The more you act like a personal pack leader, they more they treat you like one. The house dog follows my heels, and I am the only one, because I am the only one to act like a pack leader, by not spoiling her and treating her like a toy. She is a 65lb American pitt,btw.

Humans are so confused by this that they actually accept dominance signs from dogs as signs of affection, when the dog is actually dominating you, and then they act surprised when the dog bites someoene.

reply to post by stompk


Physically humans are weak, mentally we are the strongest species on the planet. Our biggest asset is the brain,the, human brain is an amazing organ.

And a less noticed human fucntion is our ability to communicate. We can make hundreds of more sounds at hundreds of more pitches then any other species on the planet. And our vocal cords have been selectively developed just for that reason.

We can manipulate our envioronment to the point of destruction, we create tools that evolution has never seen, we rear our children for decades instead of 2 years to ensure their survival and to pass on the information we have aquired.