Is 600 HR HALL OF FAME Worthy?

I was watching a TV program and they were discussing Sammy Sosa and his 600 HR. They were 50/50 split that is something important, the other guys citing probable steroids use to make the case that it was not tat big of a deal an even mentioning that he should not be voted to the hall of fame. In my opinion he should be voted in, steroids or not thats an amazing feat. So is 600 HR HOF worthy or not?

I think 600 home runs is WITHOUT QUESTION a free pass into the Hall of Fame. There's...what...5 people that have done it? Only 3 that have done it without the use of a needle. That's really rare air.

The problem with Sammy Sosa is that he doesn't have 600 home runs...he has 600* home runs.

Sosa was a decent baseball player until he became everyone's favorite bowling ball of muscle over one summer and started cranking out 60+ home runs a year.

(Barry Bonds can at least present a HOF resume for the years prior to getting creamed and cleared.)

The legitimate members of the 600 club are Willie Mays, Babe Ruth, and Hank Aaron. Any questions about those guys? Hell no.

So in short:

600 HRs? No doubt.
Sammy Sosa? No way.

Hall of Fame worthy? In and of themselves, 600 homeruns would be more than worthy, and it's borderline with Sosa.

At the moment, the legitimate members are Aaron, Ruth, and Mays...and some time next season, or even this season Griffey. He's finally healthy again and hitting almost like he did in Seattle, more importantly, there has never been the least suspicion of chemical enhancement.

600* homeruns indeed...

Originally posted by Essedarius
So in short:

600 HRs? No doubt.
Sammy Sosa? No way.

I pretty much feel the same way.

I know, Ive argued that Bonds should make it in the HOF. Cause, imo, hes still innocent of his charge untill proven in my mind. You can look back to some of my posts to see how I feel about Barry.... But this is Sosa.

Sosa has been busted for one MAJOR mistake to me that might find him outside of the Hall looking in. That is, the Corked Bat incident a couple years back I think in 2003.

sportsillustrated.cnn.com...

"I use that bat for batting practice," he said. "It's something that I take the blame for. It's a mistake, I know that. I feel sorry. I just apologize to everybody that are embarrassed."
Let me say on thing, I dont think that Sosa was doing the "juice" either. Guys on the "juice" shouldnt need Corked Bats too. We know hes been caught with Corked Bats, so in my mind, he didnt do the "juice".
~Sammy Sosa

Before 98 he was a 35hr, .280avg-ish batter with no really big highlight other than an all around "good" player. Definatly no HOF before 98.

Then he went on a 4 year stretch (1998-2001) of 60hr, 300avg-isg batting, while a big decline in the field.

Had a couple more years of 45hr, 280avg-ish batting in 2002-2003.

Hes now at a 30hr, 250avg-ish batting with a year off in 2006....

No, IMO, hes not a Hall of Famer.
The Corked Bat is a big hit against him.
I also think his Slugging, OB% & Batting AVG are a little low for HOF records.

Career Totals

Sammy Sosa:
HRS = 600
AVG = .273
SLG = .535
OBP = .344
Second all time in Strike Outs @ 2262

Hank Aaron:
HRS = 755 (155 More HRs)
AVG = .305
SLG = .555
OBP = .374
First all time in RBIs @ 2297 RBIs (Sosa @ 1628)
First all time in Total Bases @ 6856 (Sosa @ 4619)
Fouth all time in RUNs @ 2174 (Sosa @ 1449)
Tenth all time in Doubles @ 624 (Sosa @ 370)

Babe Ruth:
HRS = 714 (114 More HRs)
AVG = .342
SLG = .690 (First All Time)
OBP = .469 (Second All Time)
Second all time in RBIs @ 2213 (Sosa @ 1628)
Fouth all time in RUNs @ 2174 (Sosa @ 1449)

Willie Mays:
HRS = 660 (60 More HRs)
AVG = .302
SLG = .557
OBP = .386
Seventh all time in RUNs @ 2062 (Sosa @ 1449)
Tenth all time in RBI's @ 1903 (Sosa @ 1628)
11th all time in HITs @ 3283 (Sosa @ 2361)

Barry Bonds:
HRS = 748 (148 More HRs)
AVG = .299
SLG = .608 (5th all time)
OBP = .444 (Second All Time)
First all time in Walks @ 2496 (Sosa @ 913)
Third all time in RBIs @ 1961 (Sosa @ 1628)
Third all time in RUNs @ 2186 (Sosa @ 1449)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So Sammy Compairs in HR's, but its clear that the rest of the 600 HR club was by far better batters in many different categorys that Sosa doesnt compair in.

The question, is now does a player get in on 600 HR alone?

IMO, no. Not if you compair what the other 600 HR guys did.

[edit on 22-6-2007 by JbT]

With the controversy around Sosa let's ask another that should be in the Hall if it wasn't for controversy.

"What do you think about Sosa in the Hall of Fame, Mr. Rose?"

To Strenghted Willie Mays stats, you have to compair what he did in other stats to Sosa.

Stolen Bases = 338/234 (Mays/Sosa)
Strike Outs = 1525/2262 (Mays/Sosa)
HITs = 3283/2361 (Mays/Sosa)
RBIs = 1903/1628 (Mays/Sosa)
Doubles = 523/370 (Mays/Sosa)
Triples = 140/44 (Mays/Sosa)
Runs = 2062/1449 (Mays/Sosa)
At Bats = 10881/8637 (Mays/Sosa)
Games = 2992/2302 (Mays/Sosa)

Originally posted by intrepid
With the controversy around Sosa let's ask another that should be in the Hall if it wasn't for controversy.

"What do you think about Sosa in the Hall of Fame, Mr. Rose?"

Agreed. If Pete Rose doesn't get in because of betting, how does Sammy get in tainted with the corked bat? I think it will be big strike against him, plus the possible steroid use hanging over his head, he won't get in. In fact, I predict that Rose will get in before Sosa does.



[edit on 22-6-2007 by TheComte]

While our final verdict is the same, JbT, we definitely arrive there via differing roads.

I say 600 home runs puts you in the hall. Period.
Batting average and slugging percentage and stolen bases be damned...if you went yard SIX HUNDRED times in your career then you are an ultra-elite power hitter and belong in the Hall of Fame.

Sosa shouldn't be in the hall, in my opinion, because it is obvious that he was juiced. Had he not been juiced he never would have reached that number and, therefore, would not have punched his free ticket.

Barry was juiced too, of course. But he would have reached 600 anyway.

Originally posted by TheComte
I predict that Rose will get in before Sosa does.

Rose will get in the day after big bad Bud Selig steps down.

Originally posted by Essedarius
While our final verdict is the same, JbT, we definitely arrive there via differing roads.

Your right, we have arrived at the same conclusion, but different paths.

I personaly dont think that hitting 600 HRs puts you in the Hall, just for the 600HRs.

In short, my data was to support the fact that the players in the HOF @ the 600 club got to the HOF not only off their 600 HRs, but mostly off the rest of their stats.

Mays, Ruth, Aaron & Bonds are the best slugging batters in history (power hitters). Sosa, IMO, only has 600hrs and a bunch of average power stats, no where near even the top ten or 20 where as the others break the top 5 in most slugging catagorys.

Im not sold on the fact the Sosa did the Juice. Juicing Batters dont need more power with Corked Bats.

Bonds, Im not sold on him being on juice either. Thats a different topic. Not to mention he was already a HOF'er before 98, like everyone seems to agree apon.

Quoting myself to show data:

Career Totals

Sammy Sosa:
HRS = 600
AVG = .273
SLG = .535
OBP = .344
Second all time in Strike Outs @ 2262

Hank Aaron:
HRS = 755 (155 More HRs)
AVG = .305
SLG = .555
OBP = .374
First all time in RBIs @ 2297 RBIs (Sosa @ 1628)
First all time in Total Bases @ 6856 (Sosa @ 4619)
Fouth all time in RUNs @ 2174 (Sosa @ 1449)
Tenth all time in Doubles @ 624 (Sosa @ 370)

Babe Ruth:
HRS = 714 (114 More HRs)
AVG = .342
SLG = .690 (First All Time)
OBP = .469 (Second All Time)
Second all time in RBIs @ 2213 (Sosa @ 1628)
Fouth all time in RUNs @ 2174 (Sosa @ 1449)

Willie Mays:
HRS = 660 (60 More HRs)
AVG = .302
SLG = .557
OBP = .386
Seventh all time in RUNs @ 2062 (Sosa @ 1449)
Tenth all time in RBI's @ 1903 (Sosa @ 1628)
11th all time in HITs @ 3283 (Sosa @ 2361)

Barry Bonds:
HRS = 748 (148 More HRs)
AVG = .299
SLG = .608 (5th all time)
OBP = .444 (Second All Time)
First all time in Walks @ 2496 (Sosa @ 913)
Third all time in RBIs @ 1961 (Sosa @ 1628)
Third all time in RUNs @ 2186 (Sosa @ 1449)

Now compair the worst of these Sluggers, Willie Mays, to Sosa:

Stolen Bases = 338/234 (Mays/Sosa)
Strike Outs = 1525/2262 (Mays/Sosa)
HITs = 3283/2361 (Mays/Sosa)
RBIs = 1903/1628 (Mays/Sosa)
Doubles = 523/370 (Mays/Sosa)
Triples = 140/44 (Mays/Sosa)
Runs = 2062/1449 (Mays/Sosa)
At Bats = 10881/8637 (Mays/Sosa)
Games = 2992/2302 (Mays/Sosa)

When you see it like that. I think its easy to see how 600 Home Runs doesnt just get you into the Hall. You need other stats, like the rest of these players had.

To bad, the Corked Bat makes it so I didnt even have to do all this work, cause that alone will not get him.


[edit on 22-6-2007 by JbT]

Originally posted by intrepid
With the controversy around Sosa let's ask another that should be in the Hall if it wasn't for controversy.

"What do you think about Sosa in the Hall of Fame, Mr. Rose?"

I believe 100% that Rose should be in the Hall of Fame. I personally have a thing for people that mention character as requirement to be elected now to the Hall Of Fame. Theres many, many players with character issues that are members of it

Here just a few:
Gaylord Perry: self confessed cheater and profiting from it
Ty Cobb: sharpened spikes
Orlando Cepeda: convicted drug felon
Babe Ruth: womenizer and drunk ( used to play drunk)
Cap Anson:racist
Leo Durocher: gambler

And this guys like todays guys (except Cepeda and Perry) weren't convicted of anything. It was just known to the people of baseball that this where flawed human beings but they still got voted in. I believe that this sets a precedent for cheaters and people of questionable character to be voted to the HOF.

In addition,I have a hard time with the Baseball Writers' Association of America being the only journalists allowed to vote for the HOF. I think they served their purpose back in the day, in a time when media coverage was not that big. But now i think is an outdated situation to have just one organization of a selected few, given the entire power of selecting who's in or not. In my opinion they should include babseball analyst, broadcasters, former players and the like. My point is that guys like Bonds, McGwire, Rose are guys not really well liked by BBWAA journalist and that can create a conflict of interest where guys that are not well liked by media guys are simply going to be left out just because the personal agenda of a few guys.

I thought...

The Baseball Hall of Fame was for baseball players all Sammy ever has been is a hitter, and when you examine his hitting, he never hit for the team he played for, just for himself. I don't want Sammy sullying the sacred ground where real baseball players are enshrined. It has nothing to do with steroids... He is a bad baseball player, and a bad guy.

People should think Roberto Clemente and his accomplishments as a player when thinking of Cooperstown.

good point that all those guys with 600 plus homeruns had other stats as well to back them up.

to the non-naive everyone knows bonds took steroids and so did sosa

anyone who is educated in this area , knows it clearly.

but i don't necessarily care baseball is a business and the owners let it happen, BUT

IMO there may have to be different standards for players that played in

the non steroid era all years prior to early 1990's

the steroid era 1994-2005

and the HGH- steroid declining period from 2005 onward

because PITCHERS USE STEROIDS as well, and 70 percent of players caught have been pitchers, huge bloated muscles can be a dead give away but EVERYONE Is a suspect because there are different steroids and they won't give you big bloated muscle unless you lift weights or take certain one's , pitchers take them to reduce fatigue between starts and keep there arm's strong all season, HGH as well and more so recently (there is no test)

so just because ruth , aaron , and mays all have 600 plus doesn't mean that was the only reason they got in, or automatic they had many other great stats

and also batters could have there pre- hugeness stats added to there bloated stats like bonds who already had 475 b4 use while sosa was much lower. bonds is a HOF'er Sosa is not, McGwire is not,

i would say clemens is a user as well as GAGNE was as well , but clemens had the stats before and just used them to extend his playing days like bonds

Originally posted by cpdaman
i would say clemens is a user as well as GAGNE was as well , but clemens had the stats before and just used them to extend his playing days like bonds

AMEN to that, I found very hypocritical of the media that they will demonize Barry Bonds and then they go and treat Roger Clemens as all things good in baseball.

Have anybody looked at the way he's body has changed is past 15 years!? He had the same physical look as Barry Bonds back in the early 90's and also around the same time as Bonds became this huge guy that we see now.

He's last 3 years in Boston were injury plagued and all the sudden, could not barely finish a game. The Red Sox thought he was done, thats why they traded him to a team in the SAME division and then he come back and win 20 games!? Give me a break!

And please dont tell me is age or working out! Look at Randy Johnson, Glavine, Maddux, Rogers!! Enough said!

[edit on 16-7-2007 by Bunch]

it counts for the hall of fame, unless he's found guilty of cheating, then who knows. That corked bat incident wasn't just Sammy, so if the steriods come up, then that's something else.

Honestly tho, how many of those homeruns were in games where they had no chance of winning, seeing as a lot of them were for the Cubs, quite a few...

Originally posted by Bunch

Originally posted by cpdaman
i would say clemens is a user as well as GAGNE was as well , but clemens had the stats before and just used them to extend his playing days like bonds

AMEN to that, I found very hypocritical of the media that they will demonize Barry Bonds and then they go and treat Roger Clemens as all things good in baseball.

Have anybody looked at the way he's body has changed is past 15 years!? He had the same physical look as Barry Bonds back in the early 90's and also around the same time as Bonds became this huge guy that we see now.

He's last 3 years in Boston were injury plagued and all the sudden, could not barely finish a game. The Red Sox thought he was done, thats why they traded him to a team in the SAME division and then he come back and win 20 games!? Give me a break!

And please dont tell me is age or working out! Look at Randy Johnson, Glavine, Maddux, Rogers!! Enough said!

[edit on 16-7-2007 by Bunch]

True stuff. Who was throwing the 2 seamer b4 Rog? they're just extending the careers man...