The topic for this debate is "Peace is only an illusion."

GovConpiracy will be arguing for this proposition and will open the debate.
Genya will argue against this proposition.

Each debator will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

No post will be longer than 800 words and in the case of the closing statement no longer than 500 words. In the event of a debator posting more than the stated word limit then the excess words will be deleted by me from the bottom. Credits or references at the bottom count as part of the post.

Editing is Strictly forbidden.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements only one image or link may be included in any post. Opening and Closing statement must not carry either images or links.

As a guide responses should be made within 18 hours. However if the debate is moving forward then I have a relaxed attitude to this.

The winner will receive 1000 ATS points the loser (on condition of completion) will receive 500 ATS points. This on top of generous points allocation for Debate forum posts.

The debate will be judged by an anonymous and independant judging panel after the closing statements. Results and comments will be posted when the decision has been made.

This debate is now open, good luck.

EDIT: DaRAGE had to withdraw. GovConpiracy is to take his place arguing in the affirmative.

[Edited on 11-1-2004 by Kano]

I belive that peace is only an illusion because the other side wants you to feel safe. Then we they have your trust, they'll come out and stab you right in the back. In all honesty, when someone signs a peace treaty, they'll break it the first chance that they have to do so... Peace is nothing more than a duckblind for the weak to hide behind...there is not such thing as peace...to me the word "peace" means cowardice...

Firstly, I would like to thank Kano for inviting me to participate in this debate and wish my esteemed colleague, Mr. GovConpiracy, all the best in our forthcoming exchange of words, thoughts and beliefs! I have the utmost respect for Mr. GovConpiracy's viewpoints and know that our debate will prove fascinating, insightful and be conducted fairly as a consequence.

My task is to argue against the proposition that "Peace is only an illusion." I gladly do this, as to enlightened individuals such as Mr GovConpiracy, this is surely a self-evident truth? For Mr GovConpiracy’s benefit, and that of our revered, anonymous and independent judging panel, not forgetting those who might wish to watch our tussle unfold, I would like to offer my points as follows.

How can Peace be only an illusion? If it were, it would mean that chaos would be all around us – surely – whereas I beg you, Mr GovConpiracy, to look outside your room or workplace now and tell me what you see? The chances are that you will see people going peacefully about their daily lives?: no one pointing a gun at you, nobody threatening you but, probably (and hopefully) smiling and being pleasant, civil and “peaceful” towards you? In short, they are at “Peace” with the World, their neighbours and – most importantly perhaps – with themselves…

Now, I’d appreciate it if my learned friend Mr GovConpiracy, our note-worthy adjudicating panel and valued onlookers alike, each consider that last statement carefully: “… at Peace... with themselves”. For, we all interpret the World and “reality” around us – we perceive things and filter them through that electro-chemical organ we call the brain. Whilst I don’t wish to “go off track” in this debate– I think there is a very simple analogy to consider here and beg your permission to state it?

You have a half-glass of your favourite drink: as a pessimist, you say it is “half-empty”, whereas an optimist will reply that it is, instead, “half-full”. Agreed Mr GovConpiracy?

I ask then: how do you perceive the half-full glass? For much, then, is revealed to us about your perceptions of the wonderful Peaceful World that you - and I - and all our eager onlookers - have the great fortune to be living on, and being aware in, at this stage in it's History.

Unfortunately, I concede that the World – or rather its news gathers and media circus – can have a cynical, pessimistic approach to Life, by-and-large. Therefore, it often seems as though “Peace” has ceased. BUT, I beg you, don’t fall into that trap Mr GovConpiracy. Look, instead at a new mother with her baby and the love, joy and wonder that they share: look at the happiness, delight and mystery on children’s faces when they laugh at a clown; or your own feelings of awe, beauty and peace when you marvel at the glory of a new day beginning, as the Sun's daily return brings warmth, light and Life to the countryside. Do not become cynical and deny the inherent good and optimism that surrounds us all, I urge you Mr. GovConpiracy.

Let me dwell on our received perceptions a little longer. How much of the World do we actually see ourselves? Unless you are a seasoned and frequent traveller to foreign lands, or even our next state or city, probably very little? So, we think we know the state of the World by what we see and read from our televisions, or the Internet, or the papers. In our cases, through ATS Discussion Boards too, I’m sure! But, is this “reality”? We, as ATS members, should surely deny such ignorance?

For myself I believe that the World is inherently a Peaceful place and that the vast majority of the people living on it share the same needs, desires and wants as you and I. Consider Maslow's Hierarchical needs, Mr. GovConpiracy, and you will see what I mean I'm sure. And the World I perceive is an optimistic world that wants to live in Peace with it's neighbours and strives to achieve it constantly. What a World it would be if Peace was simply an illusion! Then there would be no Peace and all would be at odds. But, that is not the World that you or I - nor the vast majority of people - live in Mr GovConpiracy, for we live in harmony with our fellow beings. We respect those around us and “live as we would be done by” - in Peace.

I hope these opening remarks give you food for thought Mr GovConpiracy and help show that, far from being “illusory”, Peace is the corner stone of our of our Being – unless, of course, you see half-empty glasses?

Well Genya, personally I feel that the glass half empty. How is peace an illussion? In the world, we have people that die everyday because of some terrorist group that doesn't agree with the workings of the United States, and they call that peace...! Projected Peace and True Peace are two totally different aspects. Projected peace is the illusion...but I have yet to see any real peace in this world.

Peace is nothing but a word used to make people feel safe. I personally don't believe that there is such a thing as "Peace." Only the illusion that they try to project to us...to make us think, "wow, were going to be alright!"

To me, peace is just a word, a word used by people who don't understand something.. I must also cencede, Genya some of the people (specifically the media) who don't have a negative outlook on life. Unfortunatley there isn't enough people like that.

Just like in the Middle East, they send us over reports that things are turning out peacefully...If you were a solider over there, you wouldn't be saying that it is turning out to be peaceful, you would say that it a living Hell over there. Yet another example where they hide behind the illusion of peace.

Now, I know that you are probably thinking something like, "What does that have to do with anything?" It shows that when something isn't going the way we plan we use Peace to cover our tracks.

So next time you hear someone use the word peace, think to yourself, "Is this really peace, or just a Grand Illusion?" I wish that I could agree that peace is the cornerstone of out being but I have to disagree on that... Anyone who resolves things with peace is considered weak in this world.

WIth that said, I would like to thank everyone for paying attention to this debate, so far it has proven to be interesting.

Personally I think the way that I do because of several key factors:

9/11 - Thousands of people died in that. If was an unprovoked terrorist attack. How is this being in a peaceful world?

Iraqi War - Thousands of Iraqi soliders, dozens of U.S. and Coalition soliders dead. Inocent Iraqi civilians die. How is this being in a peaceful world?

Suicide Bombers - People die from them over in Isreal. Often even women and children die because of some religious claim to property.

Those are some of the reasons why that I feel so strongly about the Illusion of Peace. How could you consider us to be a peaceful world when these kinds of things happen every day!

I think that we have a long ways to go before we can stop hiding behind this illusion that I keep hearing about... If you don't mind Genya, may I ask you to define peace for me? If you find out what peace is then you'll certainly realize that we are not peaceful here. Maybe that is what they tell you, but we are not at any whatsoever peace.

Peace is only an illusion. That is all that it is. Nothing more, nothing less. Also, if you wouldnt mind me asking... How isn't peace an illusion? I mean, I have some pictures for you (if you wan't to see them send me a U2U) that would show you what I am talking about. As they say, A pictures worth a thousand words. Now, I don't know how that I could say that every single instance of peace is just an illusion, but on the most part I do believe that we are not peaceful people. I think that were a savage child race...

Now I know I may have said this before but it is important that you understand this...not just hear it. Peace is nothing but the illusion of everything being alright. So please consider this, Genya, when you read this and compile your reply. And yes, as you have said, it is a real honor the be Debating with such an intelligent person as yourself. But, really I know that you aren't a solider over there, but just think about them. They are there for something, but that "something" is far away from a peaceful mission.

So, as I make my final statement in this post, know that I still feel that Peace, is simply an illusion. Thank you.

First of all Genya, let me Applaud you on that post... Very nice. And, I also would like to thank you for defiing that for me. I still stick with my opinion though. People dieing, Countries starving to death, dictators telling people what they will do next, or they die.. that for me says that peace is just an illusion... While, things like a new born child, or a sunrise, or simply being able to relax with a half empty glass at the end of a hard work day may be nice and relaxing, those are some good things. They don't at all define that bad things that go on here. Quite honestly I have never seen the world being at peace. I don't feel that we honestly are. I think that we are destructive, and we aren't a peacefull peoples.

I do want to send those pictures and we can decide from there what really is more obviouse. I do understand that you think of the soliders over there, but so do I. I know that they are very distressed and they would say that it is everything EXEPT peacefull over there in that warzone... I have never tried any of those strategies before, I don't see how that they could change my outlook on the way that I feel about this. Yes, I do enjoy inner peace, and feel that that may exist, but what about the exteior peace? That is what I see, peace on the outside. That is why that I think peace is only an illussion. Is there really such a thing as peace? Is it something tangible, something that you can see...? No, it isn't. So it is up to people to "Display peace". I hate to say it but, I don't belive that there is a real thing such as peace.

While that newsletters quote could be very convincing, I see as saying people are at peace with themselves, but obviously don't show it on the outside!

I live here in the United States of America. So you may think that I don't ever see violence. For example in New York City, muggers, killers, thieves, rapists...I hardly call us a peacefull world, I hardly consider us to be a (No Offense to anyone ) civilized culture... I don't see how that we could ever even have the things that we do now...if things keep on going the way that they are now, we don't have a very peaceful outlook... In fact it looks quite grim...

Well, as I leave you...I'll make one final statement...take a look outside, and try to see it, the way the I see it. I am going to do the same thing...maybe we'll understand one another better if we do that...? Like always, it is a pleasure...and I look forward to your post aswell....

Joe

You have made your points very well Joe (thank you for using your personal name here incidentally). As you’ve given it, I will, with great respect, continue to use it from now on, if that’s ok with you? I think those reading your comments can’t help but be touched by what you say and the sincerity and passion with which you say them. I certainly am and very much respect, and can empathise with, your point of view Joe.

However, whilst a degree of convergence of our respective viewpoints is desirable, and in keeping with my belief that “Peace” is far from an illusion, I still have to counter some of your statements.

Of course, “bad” things happen in the world – I am not naïve Joe and have examples of injustice, hate and distress that I have witnessed personally. Whilst serving with the MOD, for example, I saw the effects of shell fire on tanks, as we rebuilt them, and “cleaned out” body parts that field personnel couldn’t access. However, the point I’m making is that this is not the “norm” for the majority of people on the Earth, but rather the exception.

Let me use some figures here Joe, to put this into perspective. Consider the UK (just to keep the numbers relatively low). Say the total population is around 60 million people. *If* peace *was* an illusion, then I’d expect – or “demand” for the purposes of this debate – that more than 50% - 30+ million people – would be living in a non-peaceful situation. For the USA, I imagine the figure would be 140+ millions? That would mean that over *half* the people you – and I – met each day would be living in a “non-peaceful” way. And that certainly *doesn’t* reflect the world and environment I live in Joe!! Of course, if I *was* living in a war zone, that would probably be the case, but I’m *not*, and neither are the majority of people living in the world at large! War zones are an unfortunate reality, it’s true, but they aren’t the norm – they are “local” areas, by and large, and whilst regrettable, shouldn’t be viewed as examples representative of the “usual” situation for the rest of us. Despite what the media tells us…

Joe, you made one comment that I’d like to reiterate here please. Believe me, I am not trying to patronise you, my friend.

Quote: “I have never tried any of those strategies before, I don't see how that they could change my outlook on the way that I feel about this.”

All I’d say is *do* “try them” and *see* how they affect your point of view Joe – you might be surprised at how empowering they are? “Peace” derives from a state of mind – for all of us. It depends on how we react to those stimuli we receive, as to whether we view “half empty” or “half full”. Only we – as sentient, individual beings – can make that decision. We are not “hive animals” – we are born and die alone. In between times, we react to the stimuli around us. And, as individuals, we *chose* how we evaluate what happens. So, we can choose to “fight or flee”, love or hate, learn or reject… And the strategies I outline “help” modify how we see things, and react to them, or so I’ve found at any rate. I don’t claim they are the *only* strategies that work, of course, (our illustrious readers will vouch for that, I’m sure!) but simply the ones that I’ve “discovered” for myself and, with the aid of various teachers, have learnt to use, albeit in a very modest way. So, I *still* recommend them to you Joe – never simply accept the status quo and continue as you have done before, I urge you. We all have a responsibility to “evolve” as beings, IMHO.

Joe, I know that you’ve listened with interest to what I’ve said, as I have listened to your points. We have both done this in an amicable, respectful and, dare I say it, “peaceful” way? And *that*, I suspect, is yet more evidence of why “Peace” is not an illusion? Consider ATS discussion boards themselves. With our disparate membership, representing as it does people from all walks of life, from across all continents, interests and political outlook, there is very little “flaming” that goes on (or, rather, that I’m aware of). But if “peace” was an illusion, as you maintain, then I’d expect that over half the posts would “flame” – and the board would “cease to be”, as *how* could we carry on discussions in such an atmosphere of mistrust, hate and loathing?

I look forward – eagerly - to reading your conclusions, my friend.

In peace. G ;^))

Well, let me say that it has been an honor in this debate Genya, and Kano thank you for having me in the Debate! I really enjoyed it. I think I have learned a bit from Genya, and I hope they have from me as well. During this debate I have made some good points, and so have you. I wish to clarify a few of my beliefs though...Here are some of the things that I have posted:

Peace is an excuse to hide behind.
Peace is a duckblind when you can't handle something
The good things do not out weigh the bad things
I do not think we are a peaceful world.
I belive that for the most part, were a child savage race.

I don't know what you think about some of the previous comments, and facts that I have posted...but I would like for you to know that I still belive that Peace is simply one grand illusion...such as a magician pulling a bunny out of a hat...so to speak.

Please understand that I feel this way due to several factors that I have closely examined recently. I have been doing certain research on this, I feel that we have more violence in the world, than peace itself.

With my final statement made I wan't to wish everyone a fond goodbye at the end of this debate!. Please consider this, I do not condone violence, but I do not belive that peace is real..mearly an illusion...

Thank you Joe for your wonderful summary of the main points you made. For your benefit and of those of our judges and peers, I simply state my chief findings here:

* Peace is something that comes about from our own journey of self-discovery
* Do this by studying, reading, learning, practising techniques that *can* have an effect on your outlook
* Remain optimistic at all times – look for the “silver lining”
* Treat people you meet as you, yourself, would like to be treated
*Consider Maslow’s hierarchical needs, where he felt that people are basically trustworthy, self-protecting, and self-governing. Humans tend toward growth and love.
* I’ve tried to show that people have been inspirational and represent a peaceful world, like Ghandi, Mother Teresa and the Dalai Lama
* Try to ignore the news media, which have agenda’s to reflect the “bad” things in Life in the main.
* Peace is not an illusion, as reflected by more than half the people in the world being able to live cooperatively and peacefully together, including ATS members!
* Louis Armstrong’s “What a wonderful World”, © Words and music GD Weiss & Bob Thiele,
which I copy here in full, as I think it encapsulates the message I’ve tried express:

Some of you young folks been saying to me
"Hey Pops, what you mean "What a wonderful world"
How about all them wars all over the place
You call them wonderful
And how about hunger and pollution
That aint so wonderful either"
Well how about listening to old Pops for a minute
Seems to me, it aint the world that's so bad
but what we're doin' to it
And all I'm saying is
See what a wonderful world
It would be if only we'd give it a chance
Love baby, love
That's the secret, Yeah
If lots more of us loved each other
We solve lots more problems
And then this world would be better
That's wha' ol' Pops keeps saying….

I see trees of green, red roses too
I see them bloom, for me and you
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world

I see skies of blue, and clouds of white
The bright blessed day, dark sacred night
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world

The colors of the rainbow, so pretty in the sky
Are also on the faces, of people going by
I see friends shaking hands, sayin' "how do you do?"
They're really sayin' "I love you"

I hear babies cryin', I watch them grow
They'll learn much more, than I'll never know
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world

Yes I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Oh yeah


And, as a “Pops” myself, I’ll leave it at that Joe. Thank you for a most stimulating debate. I’m sure our panel will have an extremely difficult task in making their adjudication!

Peace to you, your family, and all you come into contact with!! G ;^))

Excellent work both of you. You are both to be commended for the excellent manner and spirit that this debate was carried out in.

Now I'll go poke the judges with a stick and get them onto it.

I shall post the results when they come in.

Ok, a majority has been reached.

The winner of this debate is Genya by 7 votes to 1.

Here are some of the judges comments:

Wow....impressive.
Well done by both. Genya's arguments were well given and with a little more time involved in the debating forum, GovConpiracy will be a threat to most.

The key to this debate is having the strongest argument for what context to take. You can look at Peace from a worldview or personal standpoint, or a mixture of both (but that's unusual), but you must say why.

With this in mind, I was looking for GovConpiracy to defend his position, or why we should define Peace within a world view context. But at best he he asked the judges to "feel the way he feels" and "understand that I feel this way due to several factors that I have closely examined recently." No stronger explanation was forthcoming.

But that doesn't give Genya the win, because the topic is in the negative form, so Genya must show the judges why Peace is not an illusion. He establishes this by asking the judges to look outside and evaluate the environment they are in. As a judge I must say my environment is peaceful. So Peace can not be an illusion.

He then points out that Peace is maintained for most people, even those in war torn countries. By establishing the personal viewpoint, Peace is seen as trend which is only intermittently interrupted by violence, not destroyed. In this context, supported by Genya, Peace is enduring and not an illusion. Genya wins because of this simple demostration, where GovConpiracy offered none.

This very difficult abstract subject was not "fought" at all, but truly debated by both sides in a sincere and concrete manner. Hats off to both for moving appeals. Genya, however, moved both my mind and heart.

Holy smokes.......Great debate. Genya won this one. She was a little more articulate,and a a bit more prepared. GovConpiracy was a little slower out of the gate,but came on really strong at the end. Good job to both debators.

This was a tough one to call, a very good debate. Whilst I felt both argued there points strongly, I believe that Genya showed with great clarity that with the exception of extreme circumstances (e.g. 9/11), people in there general life and those around them live in peace. This swung it for me.

Genya, you expressed your opinions in a most candid and understanding manner, and I commend you for the manner in which you swayed your oppositions opening statement. Nice work!

Congratulations Genya.

Originally posted by Kano
Ok, a majority has been reached.....

.... She was a little more articulate .... Congratulations Genya.

I feel very humbled by all the feedback given by the judges and for the opportunity to debate with Joe, who has become my first "buddy" on ATS. I U2U'd him last night, following our conclusion, and said, simply, we were truly "Brothers in Arms"...

I'd like to thank everybody for their interest in the debate, witnessed by the number of viewers to the thread. If given the opportunity to debate again, I would like to be considered as a "Fighter", as I've found this process to be extremely enjoyable, enlightening and stimulating.

So, thanks once again to kano, the panel of adjudicators and the "audience" but, mainly to Joe, for entering into this debate with a postive attitude towards Netiquette, fair play and mutual respect!!

Just one thing - and the reason for the "quoted" text - I'm actually male, though frankly many people make that mistake too!!

So, it's "RATS" for me now......

In peace G ;^))

[Edited on 14-1-2004 by Genya]