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Immigration: How Hard Will Illegals Fight to Enter the U.S.?
page: 1share:
The terrorist attacks of September 11 (2001) caused many Americans to re-think their position on U.S. border security. As Federal officials creep
slowly towards improved national security, we've seen increased friction along the U.S.-Mexico border. Heightened travel restrictions have made it
harder to people around the world to emmigrate to the United States. Refugees from the war in Iraq find it particularly hard to apply for legal
entry, even after they've cooperated/collaberated with American forces.
How hard will illegal aliens fight to get in to the Unites States? Inspired by a news item posted by another ATS member, I've decided to examine this question in depth. We already know that desperate people are willing to do a lot to enter the U.S. Just how far are they willing to go?
What are we willing to do in an effort to slow or stop this new form of insurgent immigration? How bad can things really get? What are the implications if we fail? In the weeks and months ahead, I invite you to discuss this matter in an open and civilized manner. As more hostile news items come to our attention, we're going to be challenged to get past our prejudices to come up with real actionable solutions.
This issue is likely to be freely mixed with the War on Terror by politicians who are looking for new ways to approach their Federalist goals. As complex as this problem is, we can't ignore the fact that no two people see this problem in the same way. Immigration and terrorism don't seem to mix, but they do for just one reason. Ilegal entry is illegal entry, no matter who you are or what your purpose is.
How hard will illegal aliens fight to get in to the Unites States? Inspired by a news item posted by another ATS member, I've decided to examine this question in depth. We already know that desperate people are willing to do a lot to enter the U.S. Just how far are they willing to go?
What are we willing to do in an effort to slow or stop this new form of insurgent immigration? How bad can things really get? What are the implications if we fail? In the weeks and months ahead, I invite you to discuss this matter in an open and civilized manner. As more hostile news items come to our attention, we're going to be challenged to get past our prejudices to come up with real actionable solutions.
This issue is likely to be freely mixed with the War on Terror by politicians who are looking for new ways to approach their Federalist goals. As complex as this problem is, we can't ignore the fact that no two people see this problem in the same way. Immigration and terrorism don't seem to mix, but they do for just one reason. Ilegal entry is illegal entry, no matter who you are or what your purpose is.
NOTE: I'm not interested in bashing any particular racial group. I am interested in a serious discussion of a flawed policy that has serious
ramifications for the future of our country. Illegal aliens come from all parts of the world, and from all walks of life. Let's remember that when
we post.
Source: Washington Times
"Illegals light border fires to sidetrack U.S. agents"
By Jerry Seper on June 19 of 2007
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
U.S. Border Patrol agents seeking to secure the nation's border in some of the country's most pristine national forests are being targeted by illegal aliens, who are using intentionally set fires to burn agents out of observation posts and patrol routes.
The wildfires have destroyed valuable natural and cultural resources in the National Forest System and pose an ongoing threat to visitors, residents and responding firefighters, according to federal law-enforcement authorities and others.
In the Coronado National Forest in Arizona, with 60 miles of land along the U.S.-Mexico border, U.S. Forest Service firefighters sent in to battle fires or clear wild-land fire areas are required to be escorted by armed law-enforcement officers.
Armed smugglers of aliens and drugs have walked through the middle of active firefighting operations, the authorities said.
The Border Patrol"s Tucson, Ariz., sector, which encompasses most of the Coronado National Forest, has the highest incidence of cross-border violators in the nation. Nearly 500,000 illegal aliens were apprehended last year — more than 30,000 a month. In addition, nearly 100,000 pounds of marijuana, with a street value of $200 million, was seized as it was hauled through the Coronado National Forest.
Last month, the Border Patrol — in a single operation targeting illegal aliens causing what Forest Service officials called "significant damage" to the Coronado National Forest — apprehended more than 300 illegals along just a three-mile section of U.S.-Mexico border in Arizona and confiscated 600 pounds of marijuana in a 10-day period.
At least five fires were set below a Border Patrol observation post during the operation in an effort to burn the agents out, according to a Forest Service report. The fires were extinguished, and no one was arrested.
Wildfires are being set by alien and drug smugglers, authorities said, to create a diversion in an attempt to gain undetected access across the border. The fires correspond to a dramatic rise in assaults against Border Patrol agents — up more than 100 percent over last year.
"Criminal activity by both illegal immigrants and citizens in forests near the border is a threat to members of the public trying to use their public lands and to our employees trying to manage these lands," Tina J. Terrell, a Forest Service supervisor told a House Appropriations subcommittee last month.
She said law-enforcement personnel have been assaulted, threatened with weapons and shot at, and their vehicles have been rammed by cross-border violators. Because of the remoteness of the area, she said, timely assistance from other law-enforcement agencies is not always possible, and communications limitations and active interference with radio frequencies in Mexico create additional safety risks.
"Even normal enforcement duties bring our officers in regular contact with cross-border violators," she said. "Our officers risk their lives every day to enforce the law in these remote federally managed lands."
The Coronado National Forest is not the only area along the border being targeted for wildfires. Other blazes also have been set, including two this month near the San Luis, Ariz., port of entry as the result of Molotov cocktails — one of which barely missed a Border Patrol agent.
Authorities said agents are being targeted by illegal aliens and their smugglers for rock attacks — including grapefruit-size rocks wrapped in rags, dipped in gasoline and set on fire.
"As larger areas of the border come under operational control, we can expect violence to increase as smuggling operations can no longer operate with impunity and do not have unfettered access to the border for their criminal activities," Border Patrol Chief David V. Aguilar told a Homeland Security subcommittee this year.
"This explosion of aggression is an indicator how desperate and angry drug and human traffickers are at the increasing disruption of their smuggling routes," he said.
------------------------------------------------------------
I like this article because it highlights quite a few of the problems associated with border security. As you can see from what you read here, it's not all about one particular racial group, nor is it about one single activity. As we post more news items that relate to this, I'm hoping that you see that this is a blunt policy issue that needs to be dealt with sooner rather than later.
We've all heard the stories. People who came from Cuba by rafts and makeshift boats. Others who walked across hot deserts or climbed hostile mountains. A precious few who have stowed away on ships and lived to tell the tale. It seems that some people will endure almost any hardship to reach America.
Trouble is, we're now faced with persons who are willing to committ violent acts to force their way in. As our border security improves, we've got to assume that these incidents wil only become more frequent and more violent. In some cases, our will to keep our own citizens safe may not be strong enough to overcome the most hard core of criminals or economically desperate persons.
Forthe last two hundred years, we've had the luxury of taking all comers. In spite of the lip service that our leaders have paid to the issue of border security, it hasn't mattered all that much. Our populations was too big to notice the effects of illegal immigration, and our powers of law enforcement were just strong enough to curb the activities of the criminal set. Now, it matters. Now, the criminals out-gun the police and the total number of illegals coming in from around the world is large enough to eventually capsize our economy.
You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to know there's a problem here. It may not take a conspiracy theorist to develope solutions for this mess, but it will take some rock-steady citizenship to implement those solutions.
[edit on 21-6-2007 by Justin Oldham]
Source: Washington Times
"Illegals light border fires to sidetrack U.S. agents"
By Jerry Seper on June 19 of 2007
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
U.S. Border Patrol agents seeking to secure the nation's border in some of the country's most pristine national forests are being targeted by illegal aliens, who are using intentionally set fires to burn agents out of observation posts and patrol routes.
The wildfires have destroyed valuable natural and cultural resources in the National Forest System and pose an ongoing threat to visitors, residents and responding firefighters, according to federal law-enforcement authorities and others.
In the Coronado National Forest in Arizona, with 60 miles of land along the U.S.-Mexico border, U.S. Forest Service firefighters sent in to battle fires or clear wild-land fire areas are required to be escorted by armed law-enforcement officers.
Armed smugglers of aliens and drugs have walked through the middle of active firefighting operations, the authorities said.
The Border Patrol"s Tucson, Ariz., sector, which encompasses most of the Coronado National Forest, has the highest incidence of cross-border violators in the nation. Nearly 500,000 illegal aliens were apprehended last year — more than 30,000 a month. In addition, nearly 100,000 pounds of marijuana, with a street value of $200 million, was seized as it was hauled through the Coronado National Forest.
Last month, the Border Patrol — in a single operation targeting illegal aliens causing what Forest Service officials called "significant damage" to the Coronado National Forest — apprehended more than 300 illegals along just a three-mile section of U.S.-Mexico border in Arizona and confiscated 600 pounds of marijuana in a 10-day period.
At least five fires were set below a Border Patrol observation post during the operation in an effort to burn the agents out, according to a Forest Service report. The fires were extinguished, and no one was arrested.
Wildfires are being set by alien and drug smugglers, authorities said, to create a diversion in an attempt to gain undetected access across the border. The fires correspond to a dramatic rise in assaults against Border Patrol agents — up more than 100 percent over last year.
"Criminal activity by both illegal immigrants and citizens in forests near the border is a threat to members of the public trying to use their public lands and to our employees trying to manage these lands," Tina J. Terrell, a Forest Service supervisor told a House Appropriations subcommittee last month.
She said law-enforcement personnel have been assaulted, threatened with weapons and shot at, and their vehicles have been rammed by cross-border violators. Because of the remoteness of the area, she said, timely assistance from other law-enforcement agencies is not always possible, and communications limitations and active interference with radio frequencies in Mexico create additional safety risks.
"Even normal enforcement duties bring our officers in regular contact with cross-border violators," she said. "Our officers risk their lives every day to enforce the law in these remote federally managed lands."
The Coronado National Forest is not the only area along the border being targeted for wildfires. Other blazes also have been set, including two this month near the San Luis, Ariz., port of entry as the result of Molotov cocktails — one of which barely missed a Border Patrol agent.
Authorities said agents are being targeted by illegal aliens and their smugglers for rock attacks — including grapefruit-size rocks wrapped in rags, dipped in gasoline and set on fire.
"As larger areas of the border come under operational control, we can expect violence to increase as smuggling operations can no longer operate with impunity and do not have unfettered access to the border for their criminal activities," Border Patrol Chief David V. Aguilar told a Homeland Security subcommittee this year.
"This explosion of aggression is an indicator how desperate and angry drug and human traffickers are at the increasing disruption of their smuggling routes," he said.
------------------------------------------------------------
I like this article because it highlights quite a few of the problems associated with border security. As you can see from what you read here, it's not all about one particular racial group, nor is it about one single activity. As we post more news items that relate to this, I'm hoping that you see that this is a blunt policy issue that needs to be dealt with sooner rather than later.
We've all heard the stories. People who came from Cuba by rafts and makeshift boats. Others who walked across hot deserts or climbed hostile mountains. A precious few who have stowed away on ships and lived to tell the tale. It seems that some people will endure almost any hardship to reach America.
Trouble is, we're now faced with persons who are willing to committ violent acts to force their way in. As our border security improves, we've got to assume that these incidents wil only become more frequent and more violent. In some cases, our will to keep our own citizens safe may not be strong enough to overcome the most hard core of criminals or economically desperate persons.
Forthe last two hundred years, we've had the luxury of taking all comers. In spite of the lip service that our leaders have paid to the issue of border security, it hasn't mattered all that much. Our populations was too big to notice the effects of illegal immigration, and our powers of law enforcement were just strong enough to curb the activities of the criminal set. Now, it matters. Now, the criminals out-gun the police and the total number of illegals coming in from around the world is large enough to eventually capsize our economy.
You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to know there's a problem here. It may not take a conspiracy theorist to develope solutions for this mess, but it will take some rock-steady citizenship to implement those solutions.
[edit on 21-6-2007 by Justin Oldham]
to illustrate that the point that border security is more than just an immigration, issue, I'd like to make you aware of
this ATS discussion. The folks at
Newsbyus.com have their own take on recent events linked to border seucrity. I'd like to
share that article with you here.
Military Warns Personnel Don't Go to Mexico while Senate Pushes Open Borders
By Sher Zieve on Jun 21, 07
While President Bush and US Senators continue to fiddle with their open borders amnesty policy, also known as the “Immigration Reform” bill, the US military is warning its personnel and civilian employees not to enter Mexican border towns. Chillingly, this warning also includes US towns located along our southern border.
Towns on the Mexican side of the border, and perhaps those on the US side as well, are increasingly being controlled by Mexican drug lords and their cartels. These same drug lords have placed death-bounties on both our US border patrol agents and US military personnel. Unconscionably, our leftist mainstream media is neither reporting this nor the facts that open warfare is occurring, on a daily basis, along large portions of the US-Mexico border.
Mexican illegals are, on a regular basis, burning down portions of the ecologically-sensitive Coronado National Forest to create diversions; so that drug dealers and other illegals can cross unfettered into the United States. Where is the outrage from the supposed environmentalists? It’s nonexistent. Are the sonists accepted because they’re assumed to be from the politically-correct race - no matter what they do? Apparently so.
Note: Despite the arson and increasing warfare at our southern border, our politicians are still working to bypass the American people and pass their Illegal Alien Amnesty bill. What are they thinking—or better yet, smoking?
With the exception of our elite political and business leaders, the Senate Amnesty Bill will—ultimately—help no one. As illegal-turned-legal workers enter the US, in even greater numbers, wages for US citizens will be driven down, members of the US middle class will become fewer and fewer and a new and permanent lower-class structure will have been firmly established upon our shores. Can the Patron-peon scenario be far behind?
After our Congress and President have imbued the current illegals in our country with legal status, said illegals-now-legal will demand somewhat higher wages. Business will then need even more impoverished workers to fill the lower-lower class worker pool. So, illegal entry will continue—aided and abetted by our politicians. It is a never ending cycle of the intentional planned destruction of the United States of America—by those who are sworn to protect it—for the promises of power and larger bank accounts; or additional holdings in the Caymans. Power and money corrupt and there are always those in line begging to be corrupted. We now hear them on and in the media virtually every day. The current Amnesty Bill also calls for the construction of 370 miles of border fence. HUH??? The Secure Fence Act of 2006, which was passed and funded by Congress, already provides for the building of 700 miles of security fencing along our southern border! Congress is—yet again—ignoring a law that is currently in place in order to attempt to pass a more feckless one. The Senate is simply trying to force their Amnesty Bill upon the American people by trying to convince them that without it there will be no security fence built.
Note: I know Americans are said to have short memories but, holy smokes! The ink hasn’t been dry for even a year on the original 2006 security fence bill! Do our Senators think we’ve already forgotten it? The bottom line is that neither the President of the United States nor any amnesty-supporting senator has any intention—whatsoever—of building any border fence or providing any security for US citizens at the US-Mexico border. Instead, they are brazenly telling we-the-people that they will not uphold their Constitutional duties and will go against said Constitution by working against the will of the American people. Can we say rule by autocracy? You bet we can.
However, there is an alternative to the deceitful Senate Amnesty bill that is being developed in the US House of Representatives. The King-Smith bill, co-written and sponsored by House Reps Peter King (R-NY) and Lamar Smith (R-TX), seems to actually provide a viable and sensible approach to the illegal immigration problem. King advises that the bill approaches the illegal immigration issue from a “security first” perspective. It also does not denigrate the intelligence of the American people, as does the Senate’s Amnesty-for-illegals Bill, by watering down and attempting to cloud the already on the books border security act. I encourage you to take a look at Rep. King’s NRO article. There are also at least twenty loopholes in the Senate Amnesty Bill that support illegals and punish legal citizens and those attempting to gain legal US status. This is, yet, more insanity from the “minds” and hands of our lawmakers.
The only way that we-the-people have any opportunity of assisting the USA to survive—and therefore our way of life—is to fight the tyrannical elements currently in place in our federal government. These exist in both of our political parties. Continue to call, write, email—whatever it takes—your senators and Congressional representatives. Tell them to “just say NO to Amnesty!” But, due to promises made and secret back-door deals, the Amnesty Bill may pass. Our voices must now be very loud or we may very well lose our republic—and our country. It is just that serious.
While the US military warns us not to enter Mexico—it’s just too dangerous nowadays—the Open Borders US Senate and our president are refusing to protect our borders. Does this make any sense at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------
The author of this article goes out of their way to name Mexican illegals as the source of many problems along the border. As true as this is ,we've gotto understand that terrorism, criminal activity, and illegal immigration can be undertaken by anyone.
The conspiratorial side of this case is that our politicians in Washington D.C. have too much to gain (financially and politically) from an open border. The opportunities to scare us with terror threats would seem to be endless, and the chance to make a fast buck by using cheap labor seems addictive beyond measure. As citizens, we need to face up to these facts. These are the domestic obstacles we face.
Foriegn governments don't want us to get tough on border security for a variety of reasons. The conspiratoral aspect of that argument would seem to be that they need us to kee our borders open because they need a place to send their unhappy people. Let's not forget the commercial side of this. Open borders make for cheaper trade and the prospect of black market goods flowing to and from the countries that most benefit from underground economies.
There's a larger policy issue here that goes far beyond race. We risk economic catastrophe if we don't undersstand that and take steps to ensure that our borders are safe, stable, and 'unfriendly' to the people who mean to do us harm. We face enough problems from the people who don't intend to do us in. With social chaos pending, and the prospects of a coming economic downturn, we shouldn't be afraid to get our hands dirty with this issue. We do it now, or we do it later...which may be too little too late.
[edit on 21-6-2007 by Justin Oldham]
Military Warns Personnel Don't Go to Mexico while Senate Pushes Open Borders
By Sher Zieve on Jun 21, 07
While President Bush and US Senators continue to fiddle with their open borders amnesty policy, also known as the “Immigration Reform” bill, the US military is warning its personnel and civilian employees not to enter Mexican border towns. Chillingly, this warning also includes US towns located along our southern border.
Towns on the Mexican side of the border, and perhaps those on the US side as well, are increasingly being controlled by Mexican drug lords and their cartels. These same drug lords have placed death-bounties on both our US border patrol agents and US military personnel. Unconscionably, our leftist mainstream media is neither reporting this nor the facts that open warfare is occurring, on a daily basis, along large portions of the US-Mexico border.
Mexican illegals are, on a regular basis, burning down portions of the ecologically-sensitive Coronado National Forest to create diversions; so that drug dealers and other illegals can cross unfettered into the United States. Where is the outrage from the supposed environmentalists? It’s nonexistent. Are the sonists accepted because they’re assumed to be from the politically-correct race - no matter what they do? Apparently so.
Note: Despite the arson and increasing warfare at our southern border, our politicians are still working to bypass the American people and pass their Illegal Alien Amnesty bill. What are they thinking—or better yet, smoking?
With the exception of our elite political and business leaders, the Senate Amnesty Bill will—ultimately—help no one. As illegal-turned-legal workers enter the US, in even greater numbers, wages for US citizens will be driven down, members of the US middle class will become fewer and fewer and a new and permanent lower-class structure will have been firmly established upon our shores. Can the Patron-peon scenario be far behind?
After our Congress and President have imbued the current illegals in our country with legal status, said illegals-now-legal will demand somewhat higher wages. Business will then need even more impoverished workers to fill the lower-lower class worker pool. So, illegal entry will continue—aided and abetted by our politicians. It is a never ending cycle of the intentional planned destruction of the United States of America—by those who are sworn to protect it—for the promises of power and larger bank accounts; or additional holdings in the Caymans. Power and money corrupt and there are always those in line begging to be corrupted. We now hear them on and in the media virtually every day. The current Amnesty Bill also calls for the construction of 370 miles of border fence. HUH??? The Secure Fence Act of 2006, which was passed and funded by Congress, already provides for the building of 700 miles of security fencing along our southern border! Congress is—yet again—ignoring a law that is currently in place in order to attempt to pass a more feckless one. The Senate is simply trying to force their Amnesty Bill upon the American people by trying to convince them that without it there will be no security fence built.
Note: I know Americans are said to have short memories but, holy smokes! The ink hasn’t been dry for even a year on the original 2006 security fence bill! Do our Senators think we’ve already forgotten it? The bottom line is that neither the President of the United States nor any amnesty-supporting senator has any intention—whatsoever—of building any border fence or providing any security for US citizens at the US-Mexico border. Instead, they are brazenly telling we-the-people that they will not uphold their Constitutional duties and will go against said Constitution by working against the will of the American people. Can we say rule by autocracy? You bet we can.
However, there is an alternative to the deceitful Senate Amnesty bill that is being developed in the US House of Representatives. The King-Smith bill, co-written and sponsored by House Reps Peter King (R-NY) and Lamar Smith (R-TX), seems to actually provide a viable and sensible approach to the illegal immigration problem. King advises that the bill approaches the illegal immigration issue from a “security first” perspective. It also does not denigrate the intelligence of the American people, as does the Senate’s Amnesty-for-illegals Bill, by watering down and attempting to cloud the already on the books border security act. I encourage you to take a look at Rep. King’s NRO article. There are also at least twenty loopholes in the Senate Amnesty Bill that support illegals and punish legal citizens and those attempting to gain legal US status. This is, yet, more insanity from the “minds” and hands of our lawmakers.
The only way that we-the-people have any opportunity of assisting the USA to survive—and therefore our way of life—is to fight the tyrannical elements currently in place in our federal government. These exist in both of our political parties. Continue to call, write, email—whatever it takes—your senators and Congressional representatives. Tell them to “just say NO to Amnesty!” But, due to promises made and secret back-door deals, the Amnesty Bill may pass. Our voices must now be very loud or we may very well lose our republic—and our country. It is just that serious.
While the US military warns us not to enter Mexico—it’s just too dangerous nowadays—the Open Borders US Senate and our president are refusing to protect our borders. Does this make any sense at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------
The author of this article goes out of their way to name Mexican illegals as the source of many problems along the border. As true as this is ,we've gotto understand that terrorism, criminal activity, and illegal immigration can be undertaken by anyone.
The conspiratorial side of this case is that our politicians in Washington D.C. have too much to gain (financially and politically) from an open border. The opportunities to scare us with terror threats would seem to be endless, and the chance to make a fast buck by using cheap labor seems addictive beyond measure. As citizens, we need to face up to these facts. These are the domestic obstacles we face.
Foriegn governments don't want us to get tough on border security for a variety of reasons. The conspiratoral aspect of that argument would seem to be that they need us to kee our borders open because they need a place to send their unhappy people. Let's not forget the commercial side of this. Open borders make for cheaper trade and the prospect of black market goods flowing to and from the countries that most benefit from underground economies.
There's a larger policy issue here that goes far beyond race. We risk economic catastrophe if we don't undersstand that and take steps to ensure that our borders are safe, stable, and 'unfriendly' to the people who mean to do us harm. We face enough problems from the people who don't intend to do us in. With social chaos pending, and the prospects of a coming economic downturn, we shouldn't be afraid to get our hands dirty with this issue. We do it now, or we do it later...which may be too little too late.
[edit on 21-6-2007 by Justin Oldham]
OK I will bite...
If border security was to be left up to the states there would be chaos some states would attempted to enforce border security while others would put out the welcome mat. The pro illegal emigration crowd will or is trying to manipulate Americans fears of a central government in there favour.
I am amazed that border security is an partisan issue in the US I guess the politicians use the issue to maintain the orchestrated divided that sucks in the masses. It is extraordinary that Minutemen have resorted to using there spare time to build border fences that would be like me patrolling NZ waters for illegal fishing boats or me searching for over stayers.
The only way the debate can be shifted away from its current status to the best way of dealing with illegal aliens and providing border security is if American voters get behind the pro border security crowd. I invite members to post on this thread for more discussion on how the grass roots supporters can influence there leaders.
If border security was to be left up to the states there would be chaos some states would attempted to enforce border security while others would put out the welcome mat. The pro illegal emigration crowd will or is trying to manipulate Americans fears of a central government in there favour.
I am amazed that border security is an partisan issue in the US I guess the politicians use the issue to maintain the orchestrated divided that sucks in the masses. It is extraordinary that Minutemen have resorted to using there spare time to build border fences that would be like me patrolling NZ waters for illegal fishing boats or me searching for over stayers.
The only way the debate can be shifted away from its current status to the best way of dealing with illegal aliens and providing border security is if American voters get behind the pro border security crowd. I invite members to post on this thread for more discussion on how the grass roots supporters can influence there leaders.
My Opinion
Whats up with this Illegal Alient thing?
If you didnt want people coming over then maybe you shouldnt have been
trying to sell America the land of opportunity for so many years!
Whats up with this Illegal Alient thing?
If you didnt want people coming over then maybe you shouldnt have been
trying to sell America the land of opportunity for so many years!
Dont forget that we are a huge country and we only have 12,000 USBP agents and the US military and the Coasties want very little to do with homeland
security. The US Navy dosent even want to protect their own ships in American waters ...
USBP agents often operate alone in the middle of nowhere with a pistol, flashlight, radio, etc and in most cases they are not allowed to carry rifles or shotguns unless they are assigned to BORTAC which is what they call their SWAT unit oh and the nearest backup is at least 45 minutes away.
So I cant really blame the patrol agents, I place the blame on the idiotic corrupt politicians and the political hacks that run pretty much every law enforcement agency in the US.
USBP agents often operate alone in the middle of nowhere with a pistol, flashlight, radio, etc and in most cases they are not allowed to carry rifles or shotguns unless they are assigned to BORTAC which is what they call their SWAT unit oh and the nearest backup is at least 45 minutes away.
So I cant really blame the patrol agents, I place the blame on the idiotic corrupt politicians and the political hacks that run pretty much every law enforcement agency in the US.
On the basis of pure law enforcement, we have truly fallen down on the job. It's not a question of the low level employees failing to do their job.
It's a matter of highest policy by our highest officials. Because border security is more than just one thing, we need to take it much more
seriously than we do.
As we clamp down on illegal traffic, we're likely to see some very unsavory instances. Imagine the following possibilities.
1. Coyotes AND refugees alike shooting at U.S. border patrol agents and National Guard troops to force their way in.
2. Criminals of all sorts who are willing to use heavy weapons to momentarily break through U.S. border defenses.
3, Careful use of explosives and home-made mortars to take down border fences or to probe ground inside U.S. borders to blind electronic sensors.
All of this is comng.
As we clamp down on illegal traffic, we're likely to see some very unsavory instances. Imagine the following possibilities.
1. Coyotes AND refugees alike shooting at U.S. border patrol agents and National Guard troops to force their way in.
2. Criminals of all sorts who are willing to use heavy weapons to momentarily break through U.S. border defenses.
3, Careful use of explosives and home-made mortars to take down border fences or to probe ground inside U.S. borders to blind electronic sensors.
All of this is comng.
Originally posted by Justin Oldham
As we clamp down on illegal traffic, we're likely to see some very unsavory instances. Imagine the following possibilities.
I'm afraid that the possibility's you put forward have an only to real chance of happening.
1. Coyotes AND refugees alike shooting at U.S. border patrol agents and National Guard troops to force their way in.
Well that just in case lighting forest fires wasn't enough illegal aliens shooting at U.S. border patrol agents would prove beyond any reasonable doubt that an criminal element is involved in organising the masses of illegal aliens who cross the border into the US. I would bet money that the US government would find away to make the border patrol agents legally responsible.
2. Criminals of all sorts who are willing to use heavy weapons to momentarily break through U.S. border defenses.
Hmm just wait until a bunch 2nd amendment loving Minutemen or militias if they operate near the Mexican border return fire or have one of there own killed by organised crime. The media would go nuts over a fire fight between Minutemen and illegal aliens. Somehow I think the Minutemen would come worse off in the media coverage.
If you want to know why the American media would favour illegal aliens the answer is simple.
Corporate interests are the benefactors from illegal emigration and guess who runs the major media outlets in the US ?
3, Careful use of explosives and home-made mortars to take down border fences or to probe ground inside U.S. borders to blind electronic sensors.
I have no doubt that organised crime would resort to high tech measures if they ever had to do so. That is why a fence or wall isnt enough by itself measures to detect tunnels , RC drones and night vision equipment is needed e.t.c .
Under the wrong circumstances, I could see how we might end up at war with mexico due to such a highly disrupted border. I hope very much that it
never happens, but our politicians have set themselves up for a very bad fall in the event that border violence results in a 'high' death toll.
Imagine what happens if a firefight breaks out in a U.S. border town and for whatever reason, the 'invaders' have to dig in for...just a few hours. Perhaps its a group of illegals trying to "break in" to the country and somebody makes a wrong command decision? The response by local, State, and Federal authorities might result in one heck of an escalation.
Our current state of border security is such that I am concerned that more and more people would be willing to fight their way in to America. Would the conspirators who work to centralized power in Washington exploit this? You bet'cha, and they'd LIKE it.
Imagine what happens if a firefight breaks out in a U.S. border town and for whatever reason, the 'invaders' have to dig in for...just a few hours. Perhaps its a group of illegals trying to "break in" to the country and somebody makes a wrong command decision? The response by local, State, and Federal authorities might result in one heck of an escalation.
Our current state of border security is such that I am concerned that more and more people would be willing to fight their way in to America. Would the conspirators who work to centralized power in Washington exploit this? You bet'cha, and they'd LIKE it.
As time passes, more conspiracy theorists are convinced that American sovereignty is under attack. They point to the matter of illegal immigration,
suggesting that U.S. politicians are part of the problem when they insist on granting technical amnesty to millions of law-breakers.
It's not a strentch to say that big business in America wants cheap labor. the extra-territorial mindset of today's international corporations would suggest that they don't care where that labor comes from. Nor do they care which borders that labor must cross to reach their employment sites. It's for this reason that so many are worried about American soveriegnty.
As you may recall, the Kennedy-McCain Immigration Reform Act received a tremendous back-lash early in 2007. Under the terms of that bill, undocumented persons already in the U.S. would be given a fast track to legal status and eventual citizenship.
A reworked immigration bill is about to generate new media attention. H.r. 1645 mandates greater enfocement, but its got a few sneaky things in it that you should be aware of.
Source: CNS News
The official summary of H.R. 1645 is as follows:
The following summary is provided by the Congressional Research Service, which is a government entity that serves Congress and is run by the Library of Congress.
3/22/2007--Introduced.
Security Through Regularized Immigration and a Vibrant Economy Act of 2007 or STRIVE Act of 2007- Prohibits the Secretary of Homeland Security from implementing the New Worker Program established in title IV or grant conditional nonimmigrant classification under title VI of this Act prior to certification to the President and to Congress that specified conditions have been met respecting: (1) border security; (2) document security; and (3) first phase implementation of the electronic employment verification system.
Sets forth border security and enforcement provisions, including provisions respecting: (1) personnel and asset increases and enhancements; (2) a National Strategy for Border Security; (3) border security initiatives, including biometric data enhancements and a biometric entry-exit system, and document integrity, (4) international cooperation; (5) Central American gangs; and (6) National Guard use on the southern border.
Authorizes a border relief grant program for a tribal, state, or local law enforcement agency in a county: (1) no more than 100 miles from a U.S. border with Canada or Mexico; or (2) more than 100 miles from any such border but which is a high impact area.
Sets forth protections for asylum seekers and other immigrants who are subject to expedited removal and/or detention. Establishes within the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) an Office of Detention Oversight. Provides for a secure (detention) alternatives program.
Directs the Secretary to develop a plan to combat human smuggling.
Sets forth interior enforcement provisions, including provisions respecting: (1) criminal aliens; (2) voluntary departure; (3) expedited removal; (4) background checks; (5) the state criminal alien assistance program; (6) tribal lands security; (7) state and local enforcement of immigration laws; (8) detention and alternatives; (9) passport and immigration fraud; (10) illegal entry and reentry; (11) detention and removal; (12) criminal penalties; (13) alien street gang members; and (14) alien smuggling.
Makes it unlawful to knowingly hire, recruit, or refer for a fee an unauthorized alien. Sets forth verification provisions.
Provides for implementation of an electronic employment verification system, which shall include required, voluntary, and excluded employer categories. Sets forth system provisions respecting: (1) procedures; (2) criminal and civil penalties; and (3) privacy and anti-discrimination safeguards.
Provides for additional worksite and fraud detection personnel.
Establishes a temporary guest worker program (H-2C visa) (New Worker Program) of 400,000 initial entrants. Provides for: (1) a three-year admission with one additional three-year extension; (2) issuance of H-4 nonimmigrant visas for accompanying or following spouses and children; (3) U.S. and guest worker protections; (4) implementation of an alien employment management system; (5) specified employer obligations; and (6) establishment of a Standing Commission on Immigration and Labor Markets.
Provides for H-2C adjustment of status to permanent resident if the alien: (1) has been employed in H-2C status for a cumulative period of at least five years and establishes evidence of employment; (2) pays a $500 application fee; (3) is physically present in the United States; and (4) is pursuing English language and U.S. history education.
Directs the Secretary of State to negotiate bilateral agreements with H-2C worker home countries.
Sets forth backlog reduction provisions respecting: (1) family-sponsored and employment-based immigrant levels, including recapture of unused visas; (2) country limits; (3) immigrant visa allocations; (4) shortage occupations; (5) nurses and physical therapists; (6) Iraqi and Afghan translators; (7) aliens of extraordinary artistic ability; (8) Canadian powerline workers and boilermakers; (9) aliens in specialty occupations; (10) U.S. educated immigrants; (11) students; (12) L-visa (intracompany transfer) aliens; and (13) minor children and widows.
Provides for status adjustment filing of qualifying employment based immigrants regardless of whether an immigrant visa is immediately available.
Establishes a special immigrant category for certain children and women at risk of harm.
Exempt sons and daughters of Filipino World War II veterans who were naturalized under the Immigration Act of 1990 from worldwide or numerical limitations on immigrant visas.
Provides that determinations under the Haitian Refugee Immigration Fairness Act of 1998 as to whether an individual is a child of a parent shall be made using the individual's age and status on October 21, 1998.
Expands the S-visa (witness/informant) classification.
Limits the L-visa (intracompany transfer) classification.
Replaces the existing fashion model H-1B visa classification with an O-visa classification.
Return of Talent Act - Directs the Secretary to establish the return of talent program to permit eligible aliens to temporarily return to their country of citizenship in order to make a material contribution if the country is engaged in post-conflict or natural disaster reconstruction activities.
Major Disaster and Emergency Victims Immigration Benefits Preservation Act - Sets forth disaster- or emergency-related immigration benefit preservation provisions respecting: (1) special immigrant status; (2) filing or reentry deadline extensions; (3) surviving spouses and children, including surviving spouses and children of refugees and asylees; (4) waiver of public charge inadmissibility grounds; (5) age-out protection; (6) documents and address requirements; and (7) foreign students.
Authorizes a six-year conditional nonimmigrant status for a qualifying alien (and spouse and children as conditional nonimmigrant dependents) who has been illegally and continually present and employed in the United States since before June 1, 2006 up to the present. Requires: (1) criminal and security background checks; (2) payment of a $500 fine and applicable application fees; and (3) payment of tax obligations. Prohibits such status for an alien who has: (1) participated in persecutions; or (2) been convicted of a felony or three or more misdemeanors. Permits permanent resident status adjustment.
Development, Relief, and Education for Alien Minors Act of 2007 or DREAM Act of 2007 - Repeals the denial of an unlawful alien's eligibility for higher education benefits based on state residence unless a U.S. national is similarly eligible without regard to such state residence.
Authorizes the Secretary to cancel the removal of, and adjust to conditional permanent resident status, an alien who: (1) entered the United States before his or her sixteenth birthday, and has been present in the United States for at least five years immediately preceding enactment of this Act; (2) is a person of good moral character; (3) is not inadmissible or deportable under specified grounds; (4) at the time of application, has been admitted to an institution of higher education, or has earned a high school or equivalent diploma; and (5) from the age of 16 and older, has never been under a final order of exclusion, deportation, or removal.
Sets forth the conditions for conditional permanent resident status.
Agricultural Job Opportunities, Benefits, and Security Act of 2007 or AgJOBS Act of 2007 - Directs the Secretary to confer "blue card status" upon an alien who: (1) has performed agricultural employment in the United States for at least 863 hours or 150 work days during the 24-month period ending on December 31, 2006; (2) applied for such status during the 18-month application period beginning on the first day of the seventh month that begins after the date of enactment of this Act; (3) is otherwise admissible to the United States; and (4) has not been convicted of any felony or a misdemeanor, an element of which involves bodily injury, threat of serious bodily injury, or harm to property in excess of $500.
Directs the Secretary to adjust a blue card alien (and spouse and minor children) to permanent resident status if the alien has fulfilled specified periods of agricultural employment.
Amends the Social Security Act to exempt blue card aliens from prosecution for social security-related identity or payment false statements if such conduct occurred prior to the granting of blue card status.
Revises H-2A visa (agricultural labor or temporary or seasonal services) provisions. Replaces the existing labor certification requirement with a labor attestation requirement containing: (1) a description of the nature and location of the job; (2) the job's expected beginning and ending dates; (3) the number of jobs; and (4) specified labor assurances respecting job opportunities covered by collective bargaining agreements and non-covered job opportunities.
Authorizes an initial entry, adjustment, and citizenship assistance grant program.
Strengthening American Citizenship Act of 2007 - Directs the Chief of the Office of Citizenship of DHS to provide grants to assist legal U.S. residents who declare an intent to apply for citizenship in the United States to meet naturalization requirements.
Provides that a legal U.S. resident who demonstrates English fluency will satisfy the residency requirement upon the completion of four years (currently, five years) of continuous U.S. legal residency.
Directs the Secretary to establish an American citizenship grant program for qualified entities to provide civics, history, and English classes to promote the patriotic integration of prospective citizens.
Authorizes the Secretary to establish the United States Citizenship Foundation to support the functions of the Office of Citizenship.
Establishes a new citizens award program to recognize citizens who: (1) have made an outstanding contribution to the United States; and (2) were naturalized during the ten-year period ending on the date of such recognition.
Authorizes the Secretary of State to award a grant to a U.S. land grant university to establish a national program for a broad, university-based Mexican rural poverty mitigation program.
Provides for increases in DHS immigration attorneys and Department of Justice immigration attorneys and judges.
Expresses the sense of Congress that an effective and fair immigration court system should be established.
Sets forth citizenship assistance provisions for members of the Armed Forces.
Provides permanent resident status adjustment or cancellation of removal and permanent resident status adjustment for a requesting alien who was on September 10, 2001, the wife, child, or dependent son or daughter of a lawful nonimmigrant alien who died as a result of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks against the United States.
Authorizes an alien who is under removal or ordered to depart voluntarily from the United States to apply for such status adjustment.
Excludes from such provisions an alien who is: (1) inadmissible or deportable under criminal or security grounds, including September 11, 2001, terrorist activity; or (2) a family member of such an alien.
Establishes: (1) the Office of Internal Corruption Investigation; (2) the State Impact Assistance Account; and (3) the New Worker Program and Conditional Nonimmigrant Fee Account; and (4) the Immigrant Entrepeneur Regional Account Center.
Provide permanent resident status adjustment for certain persecuted religious minorities.
Establishes grants for state courts to implement programs to assist individuals with limited English proficiency to understand court proceedings.
Provides for notice and hearing if DHS intends to remove an alien to a country other than the one designated at the removal hearing.
Requires that Department of State and Department of Justice immigration documents comply with specified authentication, documentation, and machine readable standards.
------------------------------
You'll have to do a lot of homework to discover the myths and realities associated with this bill. In my respects, it is a re-packaged Kennedy-McCain effort, but take note of that increased bureaucracy. I'm not so sure it would translate to an improved enforcement effort. Looks to me like a super-highway of sorts that would actually bring in more illegals in a way that was 'easier' for the bureaucracy to justify.
If you're a fan of the NAU (North American Union), this looks like a validation of that philosphy. It could even be seen as a mechanism to speed up the evolutionary process. As a former Fed, this looks to me like a bigger engine to process more warm bodies. It does not look like an effort to improve border security.
[edit on 9-9-2007 by Justin Oldham]
It's not a strentch to say that big business in America wants cheap labor. the extra-territorial mindset of today's international corporations would suggest that they don't care where that labor comes from. Nor do they care which borders that labor must cross to reach their employment sites. It's for this reason that so many are worried about American soveriegnty.
As you may recall, the Kennedy-McCain Immigration Reform Act received a tremendous back-lash early in 2007. Under the terms of that bill, undocumented persons already in the U.S. would be given a fast track to legal status and eventual citizenship.
A reworked immigration bill is about to generate new media attention. H.r. 1645 mandates greater enfocement, but its got a few sneaky things in it that you should be aware of.
TextIra Mehlman, a spokesman for the Federation for Immigration Reform, told Cybercast News Service that this 'amnesty' legislation is not the reform the country needs.
Source: CNS News
The official summary of H.R. 1645 is as follows:
The following summary is provided by the Congressional Research Service, which is a government entity that serves Congress and is run by the Library of Congress.
3/22/2007--Introduced.
Security Through Regularized Immigration and a Vibrant Economy Act of 2007 or STRIVE Act of 2007- Prohibits the Secretary of Homeland Security from implementing the New Worker Program established in title IV or grant conditional nonimmigrant classification under title VI of this Act prior to certification to the President and to Congress that specified conditions have been met respecting: (1) border security; (2) document security; and (3) first phase implementation of the electronic employment verification system.
Sets forth border security and enforcement provisions, including provisions respecting: (1) personnel and asset increases and enhancements; (2) a National Strategy for Border Security; (3) border security initiatives, including biometric data enhancements and a biometric entry-exit system, and document integrity, (4) international cooperation; (5) Central American gangs; and (6) National Guard use on the southern border.
Authorizes a border relief grant program for a tribal, state, or local law enforcement agency in a county: (1) no more than 100 miles from a U.S. border with Canada or Mexico; or (2) more than 100 miles from any such border but which is a high impact area.
Sets forth protections for asylum seekers and other immigrants who are subject to expedited removal and/or detention. Establishes within the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) an Office of Detention Oversight. Provides for a secure (detention) alternatives program.
Directs the Secretary to develop a plan to combat human smuggling.
Sets forth interior enforcement provisions, including provisions respecting: (1) criminal aliens; (2) voluntary departure; (3) expedited removal; (4) background checks; (5) the state criminal alien assistance program; (6) tribal lands security; (7) state and local enforcement of immigration laws; (8) detention and alternatives; (9) passport and immigration fraud; (10) illegal entry and reentry; (11) detention and removal; (12) criminal penalties; (13) alien street gang members; and (14) alien smuggling.
Makes it unlawful to knowingly hire, recruit, or refer for a fee an unauthorized alien. Sets forth verification provisions.
Provides for implementation of an electronic employment verification system, which shall include required, voluntary, and excluded employer categories. Sets forth system provisions respecting: (1) procedures; (2) criminal and civil penalties; and (3) privacy and anti-discrimination safeguards.
Provides for additional worksite and fraud detection personnel.
Establishes a temporary guest worker program (H-2C visa) (New Worker Program) of 400,000 initial entrants. Provides for: (1) a three-year admission with one additional three-year extension; (2) issuance of H-4 nonimmigrant visas for accompanying or following spouses and children; (3) U.S. and guest worker protections; (4) implementation of an alien employment management system; (5) specified employer obligations; and (6) establishment of a Standing Commission on Immigration and Labor Markets.
Provides for H-2C adjustment of status to permanent resident if the alien: (1) has been employed in H-2C status for a cumulative period of at least five years and establishes evidence of employment; (2) pays a $500 application fee; (3) is physically present in the United States; and (4) is pursuing English language and U.S. history education.
Directs the Secretary of State to negotiate bilateral agreements with H-2C worker home countries.
Sets forth backlog reduction provisions respecting: (1) family-sponsored and employment-based immigrant levels, including recapture of unused visas; (2) country limits; (3) immigrant visa allocations; (4) shortage occupations; (5) nurses and physical therapists; (6) Iraqi and Afghan translators; (7) aliens of extraordinary artistic ability; (8) Canadian powerline workers and boilermakers; (9) aliens in specialty occupations; (10) U.S. educated immigrants; (11) students; (12) L-visa (intracompany transfer) aliens; and (13) minor children and widows.
Provides for status adjustment filing of qualifying employment based immigrants regardless of whether an immigrant visa is immediately available.
Establishes a special immigrant category for certain children and women at risk of harm.
Exempt sons and daughters of Filipino World War II veterans who were naturalized under the Immigration Act of 1990 from worldwide or numerical limitations on immigrant visas.
Provides that determinations under the Haitian Refugee Immigration Fairness Act of 1998 as to whether an individual is a child of a parent shall be made using the individual's age and status on October 21, 1998.
Expands the S-visa (witness/informant) classification.
Limits the L-visa (intracompany transfer) classification.
Replaces the existing fashion model H-1B visa classification with an O-visa classification.
Return of Talent Act - Directs the Secretary to establish the return of talent program to permit eligible aliens to temporarily return to their country of citizenship in order to make a material contribution if the country is engaged in post-conflict or natural disaster reconstruction activities.
Major Disaster and Emergency Victims Immigration Benefits Preservation Act - Sets forth disaster- or emergency-related immigration benefit preservation provisions respecting: (1) special immigrant status; (2) filing or reentry deadline extensions; (3) surviving spouses and children, including surviving spouses and children of refugees and asylees; (4) waiver of public charge inadmissibility grounds; (5) age-out protection; (6) documents and address requirements; and (7) foreign students.
Authorizes a six-year conditional nonimmigrant status for a qualifying alien (and spouse and children as conditional nonimmigrant dependents) who has been illegally and continually present and employed in the United States since before June 1, 2006 up to the present. Requires: (1) criminal and security background checks; (2) payment of a $500 fine and applicable application fees; and (3) payment of tax obligations. Prohibits such status for an alien who has: (1) participated in persecutions; or (2) been convicted of a felony or three or more misdemeanors. Permits permanent resident status adjustment.
Development, Relief, and Education for Alien Minors Act of 2007 or DREAM Act of 2007 - Repeals the denial of an unlawful alien's eligibility for higher education benefits based on state residence unless a U.S. national is similarly eligible without regard to such state residence.
Authorizes the Secretary to cancel the removal of, and adjust to conditional permanent resident status, an alien who: (1) entered the United States before his or her sixteenth birthday, and has been present in the United States for at least five years immediately preceding enactment of this Act; (2) is a person of good moral character; (3) is not inadmissible or deportable under specified grounds; (4) at the time of application, has been admitted to an institution of higher education, or has earned a high school or equivalent diploma; and (5) from the age of 16 and older, has never been under a final order of exclusion, deportation, or removal.
Sets forth the conditions for conditional permanent resident status.
Agricultural Job Opportunities, Benefits, and Security Act of 2007 or AgJOBS Act of 2007 - Directs the Secretary to confer "blue card status" upon an alien who: (1) has performed agricultural employment in the United States for at least 863 hours or 150 work days during the 24-month period ending on December 31, 2006; (2) applied for such status during the 18-month application period beginning on the first day of the seventh month that begins after the date of enactment of this Act; (3) is otherwise admissible to the United States; and (4) has not been convicted of any felony or a misdemeanor, an element of which involves bodily injury, threat of serious bodily injury, or harm to property in excess of $500.
Directs the Secretary to adjust a blue card alien (and spouse and minor children) to permanent resident status if the alien has fulfilled specified periods of agricultural employment.
Amends the Social Security Act to exempt blue card aliens from prosecution for social security-related identity or payment false statements if such conduct occurred prior to the granting of blue card status.
Revises H-2A visa (agricultural labor or temporary or seasonal services) provisions. Replaces the existing labor certification requirement with a labor attestation requirement containing: (1) a description of the nature and location of the job; (2) the job's expected beginning and ending dates; (3) the number of jobs; and (4) specified labor assurances respecting job opportunities covered by collective bargaining agreements and non-covered job opportunities.
Authorizes an initial entry, adjustment, and citizenship assistance grant program.
Strengthening American Citizenship Act of 2007 - Directs the Chief of the Office of Citizenship of DHS to provide grants to assist legal U.S. residents who declare an intent to apply for citizenship in the United States to meet naturalization requirements.
Provides that a legal U.S. resident who demonstrates English fluency will satisfy the residency requirement upon the completion of four years (currently, five years) of continuous U.S. legal residency.
Directs the Secretary to establish an American citizenship grant program for qualified entities to provide civics, history, and English classes to promote the patriotic integration of prospective citizens.
Authorizes the Secretary to establish the United States Citizenship Foundation to support the functions of the Office of Citizenship.
Establishes a new citizens award program to recognize citizens who: (1) have made an outstanding contribution to the United States; and (2) were naturalized during the ten-year period ending on the date of such recognition.
Authorizes the Secretary of State to award a grant to a U.S. land grant university to establish a national program for a broad, university-based Mexican rural poverty mitigation program.
Provides for increases in DHS immigration attorneys and Department of Justice immigration attorneys and judges.
Expresses the sense of Congress that an effective and fair immigration court system should be established.
Sets forth citizenship assistance provisions for members of the Armed Forces.
Provides permanent resident status adjustment or cancellation of removal and permanent resident status adjustment for a requesting alien who was on September 10, 2001, the wife, child, or dependent son or daughter of a lawful nonimmigrant alien who died as a result of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks against the United States.
Authorizes an alien who is under removal or ordered to depart voluntarily from the United States to apply for such status adjustment.
Excludes from such provisions an alien who is: (1) inadmissible or deportable under criminal or security grounds, including September 11, 2001, terrorist activity; or (2) a family member of such an alien.
Establishes: (1) the Office of Internal Corruption Investigation; (2) the State Impact Assistance Account; and (3) the New Worker Program and Conditional Nonimmigrant Fee Account; and (4) the Immigrant Entrepeneur Regional Account Center.
Provide permanent resident status adjustment for certain persecuted religious minorities.
Establishes grants for state courts to implement programs to assist individuals with limited English proficiency to understand court proceedings.
Provides for notice and hearing if DHS intends to remove an alien to a country other than the one designated at the removal hearing.
Requires that Department of State and Department of Justice immigration documents comply with specified authentication, documentation, and machine readable standards.
------------------------------
You'll have to do a lot of homework to discover the myths and realities associated with this bill. In my respects, it is a re-packaged Kennedy-McCain effort, but take note of that increased bureaucracy. I'm not so sure it would translate to an improved enforcement effort. Looks to me like a super-highway of sorts that would actually bring in more illegals in a way that was 'easier' for the bureaucracy to justify.
If you're a fan of the NAU (North American Union), this looks like a validation of that philosphy. It could even be seen as a mechanism to speed up the evolutionary process. As a former Fed, this looks to me like a bigger engine to process more warm bodies. It does not look like an effort to improve border security.
[edit on 9-9-2007 by Justin Oldham]
I hope nobody takes this the wrong way. I emigrated here- however, at this point in time, only the UNEDUCATED will be coming.
My dos centavos.
My dos centavos.
I don't think that most people look at the immigration issue in racial terms. Illegal is illegal. That's the issue that has most Americans up in
arms. That's where I'm coming from when I talk about this issue.
[edit on 10-9-2007 by Justin Oldham]
[edit on 10-9-2007 by Justin Oldham]
reply to post by Justin Oldham
12 Million Illegals and NOT 1 Terrorist!
Justin Oldham As time passes, more conspiracy theorists are convinced that American sovereignty is under attack. They point to the matter of illegal immigration, suggesting that U.S. politicians are part of the problem when they insist on granting technical amnesty to millions of law-breakers.
Look, Bush43 is no sentimentalist. That Bush43 would sign-on to Kennedy McCain tells you something about the size of the problem: How do you enroll 12 million people into anything? All the more so if some or all of them are exposed to possible criminal penalties. Get a life! The US had 13 million men in uniform in 1945. That took 4 years and a well organized and generally accepted draft system. It was not voluntary but it was accepted by almost 100% of those who were subject to it.
Another example on a smaller scale. In less than 12 months from talk (concept) to turn-key (completion), the Army built Oak Ridge, TN, Los Alamos, NM and Hanford, WA. But each city had an initial population of around 30,000. The simple fact is, we have neither the resources nor the will to MAKE 12 million people do anything. Thank you Lord, for little things.
Justin Oldham It's not a stretch to say that big business in America wants cheap labor. The extra-territorial mind set of today's international corporations would suggest that they don't care where that labor comes from. It's for this reason that so many are worried about American sovereignly.
Sovereignly? An interesting concept. Should everyone in a certain place to allowed to VOTE on issues common to all? TRUE universal suffrage. I know we talk the talk but there are many people who can’t vote in the US. We really don’t have UNIVERSAL suffrage but we like to call it that. It makes us “feel good.” I’ll close this by offering that if a person is permitted to participate in the decision making process, then he may be more likely to accept the outcome and conform to it? Just a thought. Let everybody vote, use the 3rd world system of inking the right index finger and start counting!
Justin Oldham As you may recall, [under] the Kennedy-McCain Immigration Reform Act . . undocumented persons already in the U.S. would be given a fast track to legal status and eventual citizenship.
It’s a dumb cop-out to talk about FINING a minimum wage worker $5,000 before he can get RIGHT with GOD and America. Please, “indentured servitude” surely ended in 1865? Surely we don’t want to give extortionists a/k/a loan sharks, a ready-made market for their unholy wares? The final solution - oops, sorry about that Hitler-ian slip - whaatever shape it takes, will make no one happy. BUT to wrok it must be perceived as FAIR!
Justin Oldham I don't think that most people look at the immigration issue in racial terms. Illegal is illegal. That's the issue that has most Americans up in arms. That's where I'm coming from when I talk about this issue.
It takes TWO to tango. Why brand the “A” mark on one but not the other? Like bribes, it is a rich man’s crime. I have never hired an undocumented worker. Swift and Company had 1,500 at 5 factories last year when ICE was put on a UNION busting assignment. The public pretense for the sweep was stolen identities. But they found only 70 workers in that category - they knew who those were anyway. The “illegals” had bought the id’s from domestic crooks. So the “innocent” illegals go to jail and the American crooks continue to sell stolen ids?
Sweet Jesus. Come Quick!
Oh, How To Stop Undocumented Workers In One Easy Blow? Simple. Raise the minimum wage to $10 an hour. Americans will take those jobs they will not take today. Raising the FLOOR is like water, a rising tide floats all ships.
[edit on 9/17/2007 by donwhite]
12 Million Illegals and NOT 1 Terrorist!
Justin Oldham As time passes, more conspiracy theorists are convinced that American sovereignty is under attack. They point to the matter of illegal immigration, suggesting that U.S. politicians are part of the problem when they insist on granting technical amnesty to millions of law-breakers.
Look, Bush43 is no sentimentalist. That Bush43 would sign-on to Kennedy McCain tells you something about the size of the problem: How do you enroll 12 million people into anything? All the more so if some or all of them are exposed to possible criminal penalties. Get a life! The US had 13 million men in uniform in 1945. That took 4 years and a well organized and generally accepted draft system. It was not voluntary but it was accepted by almost 100% of those who were subject to it.
Another example on a smaller scale. In less than 12 months from talk (concept) to turn-key (completion), the Army built Oak Ridge, TN, Los Alamos, NM and Hanford, WA. But each city had an initial population of around 30,000. The simple fact is, we have neither the resources nor the will to MAKE 12 million people do anything. Thank you Lord, for little things.
Justin Oldham It's not a stretch to say that big business in America wants cheap labor. The extra-territorial mind set of today's international corporations would suggest that they don't care where that labor comes from. It's for this reason that so many are worried about American sovereignly.
Sovereignly? An interesting concept. Should everyone in a certain place to allowed to VOTE on issues common to all? TRUE universal suffrage. I know we talk the talk but there are many people who can’t vote in the US. We really don’t have UNIVERSAL suffrage but we like to call it that. It makes us “feel good.” I’ll close this by offering that if a person is permitted to participate in the decision making process, then he may be more likely to accept the outcome and conform to it? Just a thought. Let everybody vote, use the 3rd world system of inking the right index finger and start counting!
Justin Oldham As you may recall, [under] the Kennedy-McCain Immigration Reform Act . . undocumented persons already in the U.S. would be given a fast track to legal status and eventual citizenship.
It’s a dumb cop-out to talk about FINING a minimum wage worker $5,000 before he can get RIGHT with GOD and America. Please, “indentured servitude” surely ended in 1865? Surely we don’t want to give extortionists a/k/a loan sharks, a ready-made market for their unholy wares? The final solution - oops, sorry about that Hitler-ian slip - whaatever shape it takes, will make no one happy. BUT to wrok it must be perceived as FAIR!
Justin Oldham I don't think that most people look at the immigration issue in racial terms. Illegal is illegal. That's the issue that has most Americans up in arms. That's where I'm coming from when I talk about this issue.
It takes TWO to tango. Why brand the “A” mark on one but not the other? Like bribes, it is a rich man’s crime. I have never hired an undocumented worker. Swift and Company had 1,500 at 5 factories last year when ICE was put on a UNION busting assignment. The public pretense for the sweep was stolen identities. But they found only 70 workers in that category - they knew who those were anyway. The “illegals” had bought the id’s from domestic crooks. So the “innocent” illegals go to jail and the American crooks continue to sell stolen ids?
Sweet Jesus. Come Quick!
Oh, How To Stop Undocumented Workers In One Easy Blow? Simple. Raise the minimum wage to $10 an hour. Americans will take those jobs they will not take today. Raising the FLOOR is like water, a rising tide floats all ships.
[edit on 9/17/2007 by donwhite]
reply to post
by xpert11
Xpert11 OK I will bite...
I am amazed that border security is an partisan issue in the US. I guess the politicians use the issue to maintain the orchestrated divide that sucks in the masses. The only way the debate can be shifted to the best way of dealing with illegal aliens and providing border security is if American voters get behind the pro border security crowd. I invite members to post on this thread for more discussion on how the grass roots supporters can influence there leaders.
PRO border security? I’m not against border security. It is just that I see it in an entirely different light than the so-called PRO border security crowd as you have labeled them. I want our north and south borders to remain under all career civilian control. I do not want the Army or the bordering state’s National Guard keeping our borders safe. In my mind, border parboiling is exclusively in the hands of the Federal government.
See the US Con Article IV. Section 4. “The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union, a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion;” See also US Con Article I, Sect. 8, Clause 4. To establish an uniform rule of naturalization; Clause 18. “To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.”
Our ocean or gulf borders have always been patrolled by the US Coast Guard. Founded in 1790. The Navy was not established until 1798. In peacetime, the CG was part of the Treasury Department, but in time of war, it moved to the Defense Department. In 2002, it was moved into the Department of Homeland Security.
Today we have a crisis. Over the past 20 odd years and especially the past 10 years when the 1996 $5.15 minimum wage was stagnated, more and more people living south of the Rio Grande have immigrated to the US to work, sans papers. We ALL knew that. Look back at the number of GOP nominees to high office who were knocked out of consideration when it was learned they employed undocumented workers often at scab wages. Hiring foreign nannies is a rich mans crime. Poor people do not do that. That is why the nanny goes to jail and her employer goes home.
The nasty example of selective enforcement on phoney charges - as phoney as Iraq’s WMDs - went on at Swift and Company’s 5 meat packing plants last spring. Swift has 5,000 workers in the 5 plants. It turned out 1,500 of them were undocumented. It also turned out 70 workers were using social security cards that had been stolen from the lawful owner. What they did not tell you is NONE of those 70 workers had stolen the cards themselves.
They were as much victims as anyone; they had bought the cards from what turned out to be thieves. This raid by ICE - Immigration and Customs Enforcement - would have you believe they are now in the social security and theft enforcement work. Au contraire. This was a union bashing raid called for by Swift & Co. Using Federal muscle-for-hire to intimidate workers. A quick check of SS records would have and I’m sure did, show all 70 workers. By name and address. Sweet Jesus, is there nothing Bush43 won’t do for money or power?
You want to influence your legislator? Hmm? How about “bundling” 10 checks for $2,000 each and hand delivering the stack to your faithful legislator? You and he will be on a first name basis. And if you need something, just ask. Oh, you’re an ordinary citizen? Hmm. How about every 2 or 6 years you go out and vote. Otherwise, don’t bug me!
By the bye, here is how the Deist referred to GOD in the 1778 Articles of Confederation, Article XIII. “And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures . . and that the Union shall be perpetual.“
[edit on 9/17/2007 by donwhite]
Xpert11 OK I will bite...
I am amazed that border security is an partisan issue in the US. I guess the politicians use the issue to maintain the orchestrated divide that sucks in the masses. The only way the debate can be shifted to the best way of dealing with illegal aliens and providing border security is if American voters get behind the pro border security crowd. I invite members to post on this thread for more discussion on how the grass roots supporters can influence there leaders.
PRO border security? I’m not against border security. It is just that I see it in an entirely different light than the so-called PRO border security crowd as you have labeled them. I want our north and south borders to remain under all career civilian control. I do not want the Army or the bordering state’s National Guard keeping our borders safe. In my mind, border parboiling is exclusively in the hands of the Federal government.
See the US Con Article IV. Section 4. “The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union, a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion;” See also US Con Article I, Sect. 8, Clause 4. To establish an uniform rule of naturalization; Clause 18. “To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.”
Our ocean or gulf borders have always been patrolled by the US Coast Guard. Founded in 1790. The Navy was not established until 1798. In peacetime, the CG was part of the Treasury Department, but in time of war, it moved to the Defense Department. In 2002, it was moved into the Department of Homeland Security.
Today we have a crisis. Over the past 20 odd years and especially the past 10 years when the 1996 $5.15 minimum wage was stagnated, more and more people living south of the Rio Grande have immigrated to the US to work, sans papers. We ALL knew that. Look back at the number of GOP nominees to high office who were knocked out of consideration when it was learned they employed undocumented workers often at scab wages. Hiring foreign nannies is a rich mans crime. Poor people do not do that. That is why the nanny goes to jail and her employer goes home.
The nasty example of selective enforcement on phoney charges - as phoney as Iraq’s WMDs - went on at Swift and Company’s 5 meat packing plants last spring. Swift has 5,000 workers in the 5 plants. It turned out 1,500 of them were undocumented. It also turned out 70 workers were using social security cards that had been stolen from the lawful owner. What they did not tell you is NONE of those 70 workers had stolen the cards themselves.
They were as much victims as anyone; they had bought the cards from what turned out to be thieves. This raid by ICE - Immigration and Customs Enforcement - would have you believe they are now in the social security and theft enforcement work. Au contraire. This was a union bashing raid called for by Swift & Co. Using Federal muscle-for-hire to intimidate workers. A quick check of SS records would have and I’m sure did, show all 70 workers. By name and address. Sweet Jesus, is there nothing Bush43 won’t do for money or power?
You want to influence your legislator? Hmm? How about “bundling” 10 checks for $2,000 each and hand delivering the stack to your faithful legislator? You and he will be on a first name basis. And if you need something, just ask. Oh, you’re an ordinary citizen? Hmm. How about every 2 or 6 years you go out and vote. Otherwise, don’t bug me!
By the bye, here is how the Deist referred to GOD in the 1778 Articles of Confederation, Article XIII. “And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures . . and that the Union shall be perpetual.“
[edit on 9/17/2007 by donwhite]
reply to post by Justin Oldham
Justin Oldham (1) What are we willing to do in an effort to slow or stop this new form of insurgent immigration? (2) How bad can things really get? What are the implications if we fail? I invite you to discuss this matter in an open and civilized manner. (3) This issue is likely to be freely mixed with the War on Terror by politicians who are looking for new ways to approach their Federalist goals. (4) Immigration and terrorism don't seem to mix, but they do for just one reason. Illegal entry is illegal entry, no matter who you are or what your purpose is.
1) Some people are happy to see a GREAT WALL OF CHINA go up between the US and Mexico. The China experiment is most notable for its failure to keep the Mongol OUT. But it did keep the Han people IN. Maybe not so much physically as in mental outlook. From that time forward until 1949, most Chinese looked inward, satisfied with the long tried and very workable principles of Confucius (551-479 BCE) and happy to work the rice paddy as their ancestors had for as long as they say in the common law, “Till the memory of man runneth not to the contrary.”
The American HATE Wall along our southern border may in the end prove to be more like the Iron Curtain first named by Churchill on 3/5/46 at Fulton MO, than it is like the Berlin Wall (1961-1989) we are all too familiar with. Walls prove much better in keeping people IN than in keeping people OUT. I’m embarrassed to live in a country that so dramatically WARNS the world NOT to enter here! As if to deny the sentiments found in the Statue of Liberty dedication, “New Colossus” by Emma Lazarus, referring to the United States as the new Colossus:
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
And now we casually flip the switch to OFF?
2) We are mired in the mud of our own making. We cannot cheerfully share the prosperity we are so proud of with those who do the most menial and unrewarding tasks of any organized society. I don’t know the number of people who work for the minium wage. I see many at nursing homes for the elderly, and as kitchen help in restaurants, but it is my own estimate they number around 10% of the work force. About 14 million. Even in 2007 many of the ANTI minimum wage people still argue against it philosophically, that is, it is an improper intrusion of government into the private sector in the first place. There should be NO minimum wage they say. A free market will set the minimum wage. I shan’t dwell on this but to say only this thinking is archaic.
American workers reject the corporate inspired tepid minimum wage law. By personal anecdote I can tell you that in 1952, it was a living wage for a single male person. (Women ‘cost’ more than men). It is not today. If the minimum wage was of sufficient amount, there would be no jobs open for out of country undocumented workers. The ultra high cost of health care is the No. 2 causation of the large number of illegal workers in America. Fix the minimum wage and provide affordable health care to Americans, and you will not have an illegal worker problem. Put your machine guns away. Send the old retired Vopos back to Germany. Note: “Vopo” is an acronym derived from the East German Volkspolizei. Literally, people’s police.
3) J/O and I see this 180 degrees apart. I guess it depends a lot on who’s ox is being gored. When Dems exercise Executive power, I like it, when GOPs exercise Execute power, I don’t like it. J/O sees Power as Power. I see its purpose more than I see its force. The GOP exercises power in directions I don’t want to go - Patriot Act - Guantanamo Bay - whereas the Dems exercise power in ways I do want to go. Power per se is not my bogey man.
4) “Illegal is Illegal.” J/O’s very excellent book “Politics and Patriotism: The Fisk Conspiracy” is more than 600 pages, so you know brevity is not a trait by birth of J/O. I don’t want to say simplistic, but in this case, it is TOO brief a way to describe a very complex problem involving Americans equally with Latinos. It all started in 1848, at Sutters Mill on the American River in Califrnia. The birthplace of the 1849 Gold Rush. Forty-niners. Which confirmed the wisdom of the Mexican War of 1846-1848 out of which the United States TOOK land from Mexico which was later divided into California, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico, Arizona and part of Colorado. TOOK being the operative word. Americans worshiped at the “Tree of Manifest Destiny” and Hey, who can deny GOD?
Let me summarize this way: We NEED those 12 million very excellent and highly self-selected people of courage and resource as the BEST of the South of the Border population, to be added into our own society. Many of them don’t want to be citizens but DO WANT to work here legally. We should accommodate both groups. It will be our gain!
[edit on 9/18/2007 by donwhite]
Justin Oldham (1) What are we willing to do in an effort to slow or stop this new form of insurgent immigration? (2) How bad can things really get? What are the implications if we fail? I invite you to discuss this matter in an open and civilized manner. (3) This issue is likely to be freely mixed with the War on Terror by politicians who are looking for new ways to approach their Federalist goals. (4) Immigration and terrorism don't seem to mix, but they do for just one reason. Illegal entry is illegal entry, no matter who you are or what your purpose is.
1) Some people are happy to see a GREAT WALL OF CHINA go up between the US and Mexico. The China experiment is most notable for its failure to keep the Mongol OUT. But it did keep the Han people IN. Maybe not so much physically as in mental outlook. From that time forward until 1949, most Chinese looked inward, satisfied with the long tried and very workable principles of Confucius (551-479 BCE) and happy to work the rice paddy as their ancestors had for as long as they say in the common law, “Till the memory of man runneth not to the contrary.”
The American HATE Wall along our southern border may in the end prove to be more like the Iron Curtain first named by Churchill on 3/5/46 at Fulton MO, than it is like the Berlin Wall (1961-1989) we are all too familiar with. Walls prove much better in keeping people IN than in keeping people OUT. I’m embarrassed to live in a country that so dramatically WARNS the world NOT to enter here! As if to deny the sentiments found in the Statue of Liberty dedication, “New Colossus” by Emma Lazarus, referring to the United States as the new Colossus:
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
And now we casually flip the switch to OFF?
2) We are mired in the mud of our own making. We cannot cheerfully share the prosperity we are so proud of with those who do the most menial and unrewarding tasks of any organized society. I don’t know the number of people who work for the minium wage. I see many at nursing homes for the elderly, and as kitchen help in restaurants, but it is my own estimate they number around 10% of the work force. About 14 million. Even in 2007 many of the ANTI minimum wage people still argue against it philosophically, that is, it is an improper intrusion of government into the private sector in the first place. There should be NO minimum wage they say. A free market will set the minimum wage. I shan’t dwell on this but to say only this thinking is archaic.
American workers reject the corporate inspired tepid minimum wage law. By personal anecdote I can tell you that in 1952, it was a living wage for a single male person. (Women ‘cost’ more than men). It is not today. If the minimum wage was of sufficient amount, there would be no jobs open for out of country undocumented workers. The ultra high cost of health care is the No. 2 causation of the large number of illegal workers in America. Fix the minimum wage and provide affordable health care to Americans, and you will not have an illegal worker problem. Put your machine guns away. Send the old retired Vopos back to Germany. Note: “Vopo” is an acronym derived from the East German Volkspolizei. Literally, people’s police.
3) J/O and I see this 180 degrees apart. I guess it depends a lot on who’s ox is being gored. When Dems exercise Executive power, I like it, when GOPs exercise Execute power, I don’t like it. J/O sees Power as Power. I see its purpose more than I see its force. The GOP exercises power in directions I don’t want to go - Patriot Act - Guantanamo Bay - whereas the Dems exercise power in ways I do want to go. Power per se is not my bogey man.
4) “Illegal is Illegal.” J/O’s very excellent book “Politics and Patriotism: The Fisk Conspiracy” is more than 600 pages, so you know brevity is not a trait by birth of J/O. I don’t want to say simplistic, but in this case, it is TOO brief a way to describe a very complex problem involving Americans equally with Latinos. It all started in 1848, at Sutters Mill on the American River in Califrnia. The birthplace of the 1849 Gold Rush. Forty-niners. Which confirmed the wisdom of the Mexican War of 1846-1848 out of which the United States TOOK land from Mexico which was later divided into California, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico, Arizona and part of Colorado. TOOK being the operative word. Americans worshiped at the “Tree of Manifest Destiny” and Hey, who can deny GOD?
Let me summarize this way: We NEED those 12 million very excellent and highly self-selected people of courage and resource as the BEST of the South of the Border population, to be added into our own society. Many of them don’t want to be citizens but DO WANT to work here legally. We should accommodate both groups. It will be our gain!
[edit on 9/18/2007 by donwhite]
Lets not bandy words, or try to be "politically correct". The major problem is on the southern border, and with *mostly* Mexican citizens. Don't
get me wrong, I love Mexico, and have a house there, just north of Guatemala. It has always been a reciprocal problem, fostered by both
governments--The US gets cheap labor, Mexico gets the $$ they send back. What hacks me off is the current direction of the politics of the workers who
arrive here.
Have any of you been to southern Mexico? Any where near Mexico's southern border? Do you know what happens to Guatemalans crossing Mexico's southern border?
I guarantee you that no illegal immigrants in Mexico demonstrate, fly their own flag, demand health care and other social services, or try in any way to advertise their presence. Funny, isn't it, in a sick way. As Mexico looses it's best, brightest, and in the case of immigrant workers, the most ambitious people, leaving a great void in most of the towns, villages and cities, those who would be most willing to fill that void, and work in Mexico to send money back home to countries to the south, are shot on sight while crossing, arrested if found inside, and if very lucky, only deported.
While illegals from Mexico make up the majority of those crossing the border into the U.S., the porosity of the border has made it very easy for OTM's (other than Mexican) to get in. Like MS13 who now has a presence in most major cities across America, fugitives from all countries, and wealthy persons of interest, who may have a more sinister agenda for being here.
The solution? there are two.
Lock down the border and deport all illegals until a legal way for them to be here is devised and implemented.
Or, abolish the border, and let everyone freely cross BOTH DIRECTIONS. Therein lies the fly in the ointment. Mexico's ideas on immigration and free travel will have to be radically changed.
Have any of you been to southern Mexico? Any where near Mexico's southern border? Do you know what happens to Guatemalans crossing Mexico's southern border?
I guarantee you that no illegal immigrants in Mexico demonstrate, fly their own flag, demand health care and other social services, or try in any way to advertise their presence. Funny, isn't it, in a sick way. As Mexico looses it's best, brightest, and in the case of immigrant workers, the most ambitious people, leaving a great void in most of the towns, villages and cities, those who would be most willing to fill that void, and work in Mexico to send money back home to countries to the south, are shot on sight while crossing, arrested if found inside, and if very lucky, only deported.
While illegals from Mexico make up the majority of those crossing the border into the U.S., the porosity of the border has made it very easy for OTM's (other than Mexican) to get in. Like MS13 who now has a presence in most major cities across America, fugitives from all countries, and wealthy persons of interest, who may have a more sinister agenda for being here.
The solution? there are two.
Lock down the border and deport all illegals until a legal way for them to be here is devised and implemented.
Or, abolish the border, and let everyone freely cross BOTH DIRECTIONS. Therein lies the fly in the ointment. Mexico's ideas on immigration and free travel will have to be radically changed.
illegal is illegal, and that's really all I care about. I think that any nation that fails to police its own borders gets what it deserves in the
way of undocumented traffic that puts a hurt on their social support and government infrastructure. We've been very sloppy when it comes our our
soveriegnty and border security.
I do think that we have politicians in this country that don't particularly care about doing what's best for us as a nation. There is a school of thought that would have us do away with border security altogether. I'm not sure how they expect us to pay for anything, but such people do strongly suggest that our social to the world is to take any and all comers, regardless.
I do think that we have politicians in this country that don't particularly care about doing what's best for us as a nation. There is a school of thought that would have us do away with border security altogether. I'm not sure how they expect us to pay for anything, but such people do strongly suggest that our social to the world is to take any and all comers, regardless.
reply to post by gotrox
350 Words and not ONE word about the impact a minimum wage increase here might be expected to have. I take it you don’t agree. Health care was mentioned only in its denial in Mexico and in contrast to here as a “right” demanded by South of the Border “expatriates.”
Maybe I’m wrong to look behind issues. Maybe first impulses should prevail. Maybe vigilantism is the best way to resolve sticky issues? The NRA solution, arm every person. Take your best shot! As for the south of Mexico, I believe there are native Indians there who are under siege. Sounds as if Mexico is using our old 7th Cavalry down there. Or their tactics.
We cannot register and deport 12 million people. It is a physical impossibility. Shucks, we could not even get 30,000 people out of New Orleans. Now we can’t get them back. Get real. If you threaten them, they will go deeper underground. People like me will not lend a hand to either find them or deport them.
In the end the US will have to give them a work pass renewable every year if they have a job and have not broken a law. I don't care what color it is. Most of the illegals don’t want US citizenship - a thought many US types can’t bear - but they do want to be legal. Why not do it now when we still have some good-will remaining in the community? We are making the work of criminals easy. Just as we did in the 1920s when we founded the Mafia and did a re-run in the 1960s with anti drug laws when we corrupted all the police in this hemisphere and ruined Columbia.
One thing can still be said about us, WE NEVER LEARN.
[edit on 9/18/2007 by donwhite]
350 Words and not ONE word about the impact a minimum wage increase here might be expected to have. I take it you don’t agree. Health care was mentioned only in its denial in Mexico and in contrast to here as a “right” demanded by South of the Border “expatriates.”
Maybe I’m wrong to look behind issues. Maybe first impulses should prevail. Maybe vigilantism is the best way to resolve sticky issues? The NRA solution, arm every person. Take your best shot! As for the south of Mexico, I believe there are native Indians there who are under siege. Sounds as if Mexico is using our old 7th Cavalry down there. Or their tactics.
We cannot register and deport 12 million people. It is a physical impossibility. Shucks, we could not even get 30,000 people out of New Orleans. Now we can’t get them back. Get real. If you threaten them, they will go deeper underground. People like me will not lend a hand to either find them or deport them.
In the end the US will have to give them a work pass renewable every year if they have a job and have not broken a law. I don't care what color it is. Most of the illegals don’t want US citizenship - a thought many US types can’t bear - but they do want to be legal. Why not do it now when we still have some good-will remaining in the community? We are making the work of criminals easy. Just as we did in the 1920s when we founded the Mafia and did a re-run in the 1960s with anti drug laws when we corrupted all the police in this hemisphere and ruined Columbia.
One thing can still be said about us, WE NEVER LEARN.
[edit on 9/18/2007 by donwhite]
reply to post by Justin Oldham
Justin Oldham illegal is illegal, and that's really all I care about. I think that any nation that fails to police its own borders gets what it deserves in the way of undocumented traffic that puts a hurt on their social support and government infrastructure.
OK, OK, you’re right on the definition. It is it. But IT has become irrelevant. The issue is what to do now with 12 million people! We mal-treated 120,000 Japanese Americans in 1942-45, which we have since regretted. We were wrong then and I think we’re wrong today. Now we have 100 times that number to deal with. We have got to be careful how we do it. Whether it’s innate or learned, almost everyone knows or can sense what is fair. It is not fair - it is stupid - to ask them to voluntarily leave the country and put their names on a waiting list already 10 years long.
Or another stupid proposal that would have divided families. Who is doing this dumb stuff? Are these the young people from those unlicensed church affiliated colleges Bush43 and Pat Robertson seem so enamored with?
Allow every person 6 months to register, get a picture ID, assign a tax number for Social Security, and have it renewable annually as long as the holder is working and has not broken or been accused of breaking a serious law.
The undocumented workers already pay state sales taxes and if they rent, they help pay landlord’s property taxes, insurance and maintenance. ALL of the 1,500 workers at Swift & Co. (out of 5,000) were paying the SS tax but due to using phoney numbers, that money is lost. All of them were having income tax withheld but that may also be lost to them. It is not right or fair to say “they don’t pay taxes.” We must be honest if we expect to resolve this MESS cleanly. Illegals amounted to 30% of Swift's payroll. Do you think all the meat packing industry is 30% undocumented workers?
Justin Oldham I do think that we have politicians in this country that don't particularly care about doing what's best for us as a nation. There is a school of thought that would have us do away with border security altogether. I'm not sure how they expect us to pay for anything, but such people do strongly suggest that our social [obligation] to the world is to take any and all comers, regardless.
It is not always obvious what is BEST for our nation. People of good will differ on that. Others are thinking short term, still others long term. As usual the public does not know what course is best. Maybe we need a Commission on Undocumented Workers?
As for criminals coming north of the border, that is more our fault than it is theirs. We know and have known they are coming over. We have given them 12 million UNWILLING accomplices. Ugh! Will we EVER learn?
PS. Swift & Co. wants illegal workers. It stops unions, it stops higher wages and it stops fringe benefits. So why is hamburger $4 a pound?
[edit on 9/18/2007 by donwhite]
Justin Oldham illegal is illegal, and that's really all I care about. I think that any nation that fails to police its own borders gets what it deserves in the way of undocumented traffic that puts a hurt on their social support and government infrastructure.
OK, OK, you’re right on the definition. It is it. But IT has become irrelevant. The issue is what to do now with 12 million people! We mal-treated 120,000 Japanese Americans in 1942-45, which we have since regretted. We were wrong then and I think we’re wrong today. Now we have 100 times that number to deal with. We have got to be careful how we do it. Whether it’s innate or learned, almost everyone knows or can sense what is fair. It is not fair - it is stupid - to ask them to voluntarily leave the country and put their names on a waiting list already 10 years long.
Or another stupid proposal that would have divided families. Who is doing this dumb stuff? Are these the young people from those unlicensed church affiliated colleges Bush43 and Pat Robertson seem so enamored with?
Allow every person 6 months to register, get a picture ID, assign a tax number for Social Security, and have it renewable annually as long as the holder is working and has not broken or been accused of breaking a serious law.
The undocumented workers already pay state sales taxes and if they rent, they help pay landlord’s property taxes, insurance and maintenance. ALL of the 1,500 workers at Swift & Co. (out of 5,000) were paying the SS tax but due to using phoney numbers, that money is lost. All of them were having income tax withheld but that may also be lost to them. It is not right or fair to say “they don’t pay taxes.” We must be honest if we expect to resolve this MESS cleanly. Illegals amounted to 30% of Swift's payroll. Do you think all the meat packing industry is 30% undocumented workers?
Justin Oldham I do think that we have politicians in this country that don't particularly care about doing what's best for us as a nation. There is a school of thought that would have us do away with border security altogether. I'm not sure how they expect us to pay for anything, but such people do strongly suggest that our social [obligation] to the world is to take any and all comers, regardless.
It is not always obvious what is BEST for our nation. People of good will differ on that. Others are thinking short term, still others long term. As usual the public does not know what course is best. Maybe we need a Commission on Undocumented Workers?
As for criminals coming north of the border, that is more our fault than it is theirs. We know and have known they are coming over. We have given them 12 million UNWILLING accomplices. Ugh! Will we EVER learn?
PS. Swift & Co. wants illegal workers. It stops unions, it stops higher wages and it stops fringe benefits. So why is hamburger $4 a pound?
[edit on 9/18/2007 by donwhite]
reply to post by donwhite
Minimum wage increase? Right. What effect, hmmmm, lets see, everything more expensive, illegals make more, young people from the public edumacashun system still think they are entitled to CEO posititions upon graduation, so still refuse to work for under 50k a year, full benefits and a company car, and if forced to work to eat and not be homeless, are surly, insubordinate, and the quality of their work is minimal. That and the fact that they will leave on a moments notice for greener pastures.
You must not have kids, or have never hired a high school graduate in the last 15 years.
Minimum wage increase? Right. What effect, hmmmm, lets see, everything more expensive, illegals make more, young people from the public edumacashun system still think they are entitled to CEO posititions upon graduation, so still refuse to work for under 50k a year, full benefits and a company car, and if forced to work to eat and not be homeless, are surly, insubordinate, and the quality of their work is minimal. That and the fact that they will leave on a moments notice for greener pastures.
You must not have kids, or have never hired a high school graduate in the last 15 years.
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2024 Elections: 7 hours ago, 6 flags -
Don't take advantage of people just because it seems easy it will backfire
Rant: 6 hours ago, 4 flags -
One Flame Throwing Robot Dog for Christmas Please!
Weaponry: 5 hours ago, 4 flags -
God lived as a Devil Dog.
Short Stories: 11 hours ago, 3 flags -
Ditching physical money
History: 5 hours ago, 3 flags
active topics
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Why to avoid TikTok
Education and Media • 17 • : mooncake -
The Superstition of Full Moons Filling Hospitals Turns Out To Be True!
Medical Issues & Conspiracies • 22 • : mooncake -
University student disciplined after saying veganism is wrong and gender fluidity is stupid
Education and Media • 23 • : BigDuckEnergy -
President BIDEN Vows to Make Americans Pay More Federal Taxes in 2025 - Political Suicide.
2024 Elections • 3 • : BingoMcGoof -
Russia Ukraine Update Thread - part 3
World War Three • 5717 • : Arbitrageur -
Should Biden Replace Harris With AOC On the 2024 Democrat Ticket?
2024 Elections • 44 • : budzprime69 -
Hundreds of teenagers flood into downtown Chicago, smashing car windows
Other Current Events • 111 • : 777Vader -
British TV Presenter Refuses To Use Guest's Preferred Pronouns
Education and Media • 125 • : Annee -
Who guards the guards
US Political Madness • 4 • : kwaka -
New whistleblower Jason Sands speaks on Twitter Spaces last night.
Aliens and UFOs • 44 • : pianopraze