Ireland, Civil War at home, Revolution Abound

In Northern Ireland a majority of the population is Protestant .

Northern Ireland is a part of the U.K. therefore everyone in Northern Ireland is British although most (but not all ) Catholics would consider themselves as Irish and can hold dual passports (British and Republic of Ireland.

A majority of the popualtion of Northern Ireland (around 70% made of both Catholics and Protestants) wish to remain a part of the United Kingdom.

30 years of bombs , bullets and bloody murders didnt succeed in forcing the people of Northern Ireland to give up their status within the U.K.

Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein now sit within the government of Northern Ireland adminstering British rule along with 3 of the other local Northern Ireland political parties.

[edit on 19-6-2007 by The_Coo]

[edit on 19-6-2007 by The_Coo]

[edit on 19-6-2007 by The_Coo]

I am a lawyer in Belfast but born in England with Irish Republican ideals. I believe that qualifies me to comment on the N.Ireland position. In my opionion, all our ancestors have some responsibility for historic mistakes - in much the same way our children's children will be blamed for our government's actions today (Iraq, Afghanistan and soon Iran and Venezuela).

The English did invade and occupy Ireland (centuries ago) and later withdrew retaining what is today known as North or Northern Ireland depending on your poitical opinion. England drew a border (not officially recognised by republicans) across N. Ireland stratigically so as to make sure (at the time) that the majority of the people within N.Ireland were protestant and loyal to the Crown. Hence the exclusion of Donegall at the NW of Ireland which was and is today predominantly Catholic.

Today N.Ireland has democratic elections and a govenrment in place to reflect the citizens of this County / Country. Only the people of N. Ireland should have a democratic say in its future. A call to arms by either side would be disastrous for the whole island of Ireland.

Most Countries have a violent past where some natives were oppressed for economic gain. The US is no exception - what about native Americans?

I'll get to the point - we are all puppets of Government who lie to us. We must draw together internationally as citizens and demand peace for all. No English man today should be held responsible for his ancestors role in shaping today's world. Instead he should be held reponsible for today's actions as a result of his inaction to prevent today's atrocities

I dare you to read Emma Goldman on What is Patriotism. Simply google it and learn. Eyes and mind wide open.

Citizens of the world join in peace to the exclusion of our corrupt colluding dishonest murdering merciless governnments. Put the past behind - let's concentrate on today for a better future. Please.

The Protestants of the north at that time would have suffered greatly in an all Ireland state.

The British had no option but to give Ireland their state and also create a separate safe state for Protestants who mostly lived in the north of Ireland ( Ulster ) at that time

What is it about religion???? We talk about the "Protestants" and "Catholics" as we would talk about it in the Middle Ages. Isn't the real issue that there are British people in the North and Irish people in the South of IRELAND???

The answers to my questions in a couple posts ago I think (correct me if I am wrong) summed this up.

If the actual cause is that most of the Protestants are British than why dont they go to Britian. If this isn't the case, than why have so many Northern IRISH become so accustomed to British law and policy???

Originally posted by blissfullignorance
I honestly had no idea where to post something like this, or if it even belongs here.. so i apologize to anyone whos time I waste. anyway...

The IRA has been fighting, in my opinion, the good fight for hundreds of years. Since easter rising, things have supposedly gotten bad, then better... but now my relatives in Dublin are telling me about something they've heard underground. That there is a planned uprising of the RIRA, or the real ira as they call themselves. Supposedly, they are going to try to group up, militarize, and attack Northern Ireland. They have no problem with the protestants, and they wouldn't be doing this if it werent for the damned brits. I'm sorry, I hope I havent offended any of you. any opinions though on what this would mean?

Second now, does anyone know of that Thomas Jefferson quote? "Every few hundred years or so, if a government is left in power for too long, it will become unruly. Every generation needs a revolution to straighten out a corrupt system of government.." or something to that effect. Does anyone else think it may be time? It may be time to stop the government and their corruption, their lies, and their slander. I'm not saying I wish to hurt the president at all, i think it would be a terrible thing to do and would solve nothing but anger the entire nation. But is it time for a revolt, and what kind? Armed? Peaceful? What can we do.. Could we learn from our Irish brothers, fighting for their country? Albeit, it is a different scenario, we're not being controlled by a foreign nation, but we are being controlled by our own nation. Does anyone have any opinions on this matter? Or on a potential race war, war with Mexico or Canada, or anything of that matter? Trust me, I'm not some bigot or gun happy moron. I'm simply wondering about the future of our great nation, and what we must do, as American's, to protect and get back our civil liberties that have been stolen from us so plain, right from underneath our noses. Any response is greatly appreciated. Thanks to all.

Here is Thomas Jefferson's quote in it's entirety. You see, TPTB only like to quote the second to last sentence, because that makes it sound like fighting EXTERNAL threats. When the sentence is left in context, it shows that it refers to fighting INTERNAL threats.

Here it is:

God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.... And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.

My father was half Scottish, and my mother half Scottish. I tell anyone who will listen that I am 100%, and my younger brother got all the rest. And there is some Irish in there. But my family came to America over 300 years ago, and kind of got out of that fight, and into another 'revolution'. BECAUSE of the historical necessity of overthrowing governments, we have the RIGHT and NEEd to bear arms, to overthrow our oppressors, not to shoot turkeys and pigeons. There would, I believe, already have been another revolutionary war, if it were not for a carefully laid web of deception by those who are enriching themselves at our expense. And this is why the internet is so radical, and why we are here at this site. Freedom of Speech renewed. You for freedom and peace? Buy a 50 caliber S&W pistol. And Billy, keep your head low...

I am sorry, I did not get that conclusion from Blissfulignoraces remarks. He simply stated that we have lost our Constitutional liberties.

N.I. was forceably brought into the UK by an act of union (1800) - they also wanted to keep the best parts of the developing industrial base, hence the line drawn with no regard for actual, historical county borders

This same tactic had already been used to legally (in the eyes of the English) annex Wales (1535–1542) and bring Scotland into the union (1707).

They did this by setting up "parliaments" in scotland and ireland, filled with cronies and sympathisers - it's an old, old English tactic, and one which they now refuse to acknowledge as illegal because they do not want to relinquish control. Although this is now starting to happen as part of the devolution process.

It's no coincidence that the current Scottish controlled Labour government have started this process of "Assembly" and autonomous parliament in occupied countries.

[edit on 27/6/2007 by budski]

I don't mean to derail this thread.. BUT, having seen this thread re-surface I couldnt help but notice that the user 'BlissfulIgnorance' somehow has been given stars for the creation of this thread. Now I am definitely not appealing for anything, I just think the star rating system is absurd. Someone who want to fight the 'good fight' promoting bombings can be applauded and someone who is deadly against it isn't?! Sorry but I am confused by this system, yet another absurd example I have seen since being back at ATS IMO.

Theres always going to be those who support terrorism , the IRA not only murdered and bombed their way across Northern Ireland they also trained FARC terrorists in the use of large mortar bombs in Colombia as well as supporting other groups like ETA etc.

Who would Irish terrorists turn their guns on now in Northern Ireland ?

The British Army no longer is based in the province due to the terrorism ceasing. The main republican political party now sits in th Government of Northern Ireland, it also supports the police of Northern Ireland which is a great step(well better than muderering them like before) and just today Martin McGuiness the well known member of the IRAs Army council said that the IRAs violence was well and truely over.

3000 lives wasted and yet some who have never set foot in Northern Ireland would wish for the blight of murder and mass bombings to resume again. But like has been said before the people in NI have had enough of the violence and are now enjoying their most peaceful time ever in the last 3 decades and there is no way they would support a bunch of extremists from the south trying to disrupt their hard gained peace.

[edit on 27-6-2007 by The_Coo]

Originally posted by Knights
Someone who want to fight the 'good fight' promoting bombings can be applauded

Sorry, but I didn't see anything in the OP about support for bombers.

Fighting the good fight, to me, means the hundreds of years that Ireland have been resisting the British invader for, not killing innocents

And whilst we're on the subject of killing innocents - remember Bloody Sunday?
The slaughter of the Easter Uprising?

Many other examples of British soldiers shooting innocents are out there.
Have a look, you might be surprised.

Most Northern Ireland people would know how difficult a job the British Army had to do in Northern Ireland , they ended up fighting a well organised brutal terrorist force with one armed tied behind their backs so to speak.

Those terrorists who killed and bombed in NI for 30 years never once wore a uniform , instead they casually parked car bombs in packed town centres and walked off to safety leaving men woman and children out shopping to bear the full force of their terror tactics , shooting off duty policemen in the back or even planting booby trap car bombs under their vehicles at night, so that whoever got in the car in the morning was blown to bits whether it was kids getting dropped off at school, a mother popping out for milk or whatever.

Those terrorists gave NO warning about their bomb and gun attacks but during the 30 years of violence the police and army had to adhere to strict guidelines when combatting terrorists , a clear shouted order had to be issued before they could open fire on them (what a f###king joke)

Sure, the Army killed innocent people on both sides ,usually during the confusion of a violent riot happening in densely populated streets but they had a real difficult job to do with trying to combat terrorists from both sides who wore no uniform and used citizens as their cover.

Im glad the terrorists have announced their so called war as over , im sure many of them today are wondering why their leaders sent them out to commit these acts in the name of irish freedom.

When they look at their TV screens and see a select few of the old bunch in high powered government jobs , wining and dining across the globe and being a part of the British establishment that they fought against for so long , im sure they have their regrets at being a part of a 30 year terror campaign that failed.



[edit on 28-6-2007 by The_Coo]

I have to add to this thread, I lost a few friends in NI due to the acts of terror by the IRA, in a way I hope the real IRA do start up again and then maybe we can do something about them.
If you don’t mind here are a couple of extracts from a speech made by Bush

Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them. Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated.

Real IRA links with ETA and Hezbollah = global reach

We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.

However, If the campaign in NI was to resume then I doubt our American (political) friends would live up to these fine words.

From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime.

Give the United States full access to terrorist training camps, so we can make sure they are no longer operating. These demands are not open to negotiation or discussion.
They will hand over the terrorists, or they will share in their fate.

Originally posted by The_Coo

When they look at their TV screens and see a select few of the old bunch in high powered government jobs , wining and dining across the globe and being a part of the British establishment that they fought against for so long , im sure they have their regrets at being a part of a 30 year terror campaign that failed.

[edit on 28-6-2007 by The_Coo]

I'm sure this statement is well meaning, but IMO it is wrong - the involvement of former IRA members in the parliamentary process is in fact a victory.

Another part of your statement that is wrong is the idea that this has been going on for only 30 years - for nearly 8 centuries the Irish have fought against a foreign agressor who occupied their land.

The Irish constitution states that they will never give up their claim to the illegally occupied northern counties.
en.wikipedia.org...

observer.guardian.co.uk...
bluestate.wordpress.com...
www.historylearningsite.co.uk...

[edit on 14/9/2007 by budski]

[edit on 14/9/2007 by budski]

I can't believe that someone is trying to drag this up at the moment.
We are currently going through a period of peace and both Northern and The Republic of Ireland are fluroushing.

Old adversaries have put the past behind them and are trying to work towards peace, the slaughter of innocents has stopped and the British Army has withdrawn from the streets.
Why drag this up now?
Some people just can't let go.

For #sake, this started nearly a thousand years ago, LET GO and deal with realities!
Britain owned half of France when this started, should we demand the return of Calais, no, of course not.

Ireland had long stopped being about religion and the wishes of the majority, it was about drug running, gun running extortionists who bullied and manipulated people and situations.
The vast majority of Northern Irish people DO NOT and never DID support the IRA, they are scum who slaughtered countless innocent people.
Remember Enniskillen, remember Omagh, remember Warrington.
These people are the equivallent to Al-Qaeda and other Muslim terrorists.

The vast majority of Southern Irish people I have met also do not want to be tarred with the same brush.
They are decent, hard working, fun loving people who just want to get on with their lives the same as the rest of us and all this muck raking does noone any good at all.
LET IT BE!

I have the utmost respect for all the people who have tried to put the past behind them and are continuing to work for peace.

reply to post by Freeborn


The thread isn't about "dragging it up" - it's a perfectly reasonable discussion within the bounds of the ATS T&C, and is a perfectly legitimate topic for discussion.
If you knew lots of Irish people (as you claim) then you'd also know that a free united Ireland is the most emotive subject you can speak to them about.

I haven't heard anyone here say they support the bombers or the terrorists on either side - try reading the whole thread

reply to post by budski


I've read the whole thread.
I know it's within the T&C, i've never questioned that.

I know quite a few Irish people, Northern Irish both Catholic and Protestant and a lot of Southern Irish.
My family originally came from Co. Kerry.
I was raised a Catholic (:puz) as are my whole family.
I however am very much English!
I know people from both sides who were forced out of Ireland during The Troubles, for various reasons.
Friends of mine have died in Northern Ireland.
I know people who have suffered in IRA bombings.
I know someone whose brother was kneecapped by the UVF for having a Catholic girlfriend.

I am neither for or against either political or religous persuassion.
I am against the killing and exploitation.
I have no personal agenda.
Yes, it is an emotive subject for me.

The vast majority of Irish people just want to get on with their lives in the same way that we do and they are sick of other people mentioning "The Troubles".
It is ridiculous to drag up events from centuries ago.

Great strides are being made to achieve a lasting, sustainable peace amd I have the utmost respect for all involved.
I don't intend to stifle debate or offend anyone but for pity's sake, just let them get on with it.

[edit on 14-9-2007 by Freeborn]

reply to post by Freeborn


And just how are we stopping them from getting on with it, by discussing the various events that led up to the rise of the provo's and the effect the provo's and othe terrorist groups had on the occupied territory of northern ireland?
I fail to see how we are doing anything wrong - you're free to partake or not in a discussion, but please don't tell me what I should or shouldn't do.

reply to post by budski


Budski, I have no intention or desire to tell you what to or not to discuss.
You always appear well reasoned, balanced and informed in all your posts, regardless of whether I agree or not.

I just can't help getting involved in any discussions about Ireland especially when I see ill informed or bigotted posts. (Not suggesting for one minute that you have been responsible for these)

I also strongly feel, from my constant interaction with Irish people, that they themselves are just so sick of it all and they just want to get on with their lives. They can't undestand why others have to keep on discussing the same old things that have been discussed for centuries.
It is time to leave the past in the past and move forwards into the future.

It's all been said before and some of the memories and wounds are still very close to the surface.

As stated before, it is a very emotive subject for me.

Regards and respect.

Originally posted by BlissfullIgnorance
I'm sorry but i find that very offensive, saying I am ignorant when I do actually know what I am talking about. Many North irish wanted her presence to remain because many of them are protestant, although not all. The british are predominantly protestant.

You are blinding supporting a bunch of thugs who kill innocent people. They arent even terrorists, they are THUGS. At least the British only arrested thugs, the IRA went after random people and shot them in the knees on baseless accusations ... they actually had the nerve to call it "justice". If you have a problem then settle it at the ballot box in a fair election, setting off bombs and murdering innocent people only set the "cause" of the IRA back even further and hopefully crushed it for good.

I truly feel you deserve a nice little visit with Her Majesty's Prison Service. You are no different then all those people who support Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, the KKK, the Red Brigades, etc.