Bush's plan for Illegals

Originally posted by THENEO
To push forward globalism you need to destroy nationalistic pride, nationhood, and idea of race. Then there are other things too of course.

The globalists use immigration to destroy first world countries in order to impose a one world order. Business people being short sighted and greedy agree to this not thinking about their children, grandchildren or great grandchildren and what they are to face in future.

so you are saying that the gov. is allowing people here so they can destroy natioanl pride??? so they should be soon outlawing st. patricks day..because god..we dont want those irish mucking up or races..we definently dont want any itallian pride going on,or chinese,or african or german..no more octoberfest downtown in my city because emegrants are ruining our country damnit..they are taking our jobs..all these emegrants are taking away our national pride..

Dont forget where you come from my friend..how do you think america filled out in the 1700's,1800's,and early 1900's??? all emegrants of coarse..and we embraced them and thier cultures..no cultures are going to bring down our country...this is what our country WAS about..i for one am thankful for all the emegrants and their contributions...most citizens i know today are simply selfish people who dont do a whole lot for their country except pay their taxes[which you have no choice or youll go to jail so dont act like your all high and mighty because we all do it or else..if we had a choice to pay taxes or not..i know that most people would cease to do so]

[Edited on 8-1-2004 by McGotti]

Sorry but I'm not going to argue with you because you cannot see how things have been different in the past 20 years vs the previous 200, not sure why but you can't. Thus a waste of my time.

Seekerof touched on it...but there is a ceiling for immigrants (legal ones).

The reason for this, is to not overburden the economy with an influx of non-citizens. For those who follow the process, it is indeed a land of opportunity, and Lady Liberty still says give us your huddled masses.

What we don't want though, are people flooding in illegally, and overburdening the available resources....resources allocated and created by our tax dollars...not the illegals'.....

Originally posted by THENEO
Seekerof,

all true but in the past there wasn't as many as there are now and growing exponentially everyday...

the people that push this do it because they make money from it but they sell out their own country for mere money... they should be shot as traitors IMHO.

NEO, well said, but please my friend, with such a major proposal as this, I am not conveying whether I fully agree or disagree with the Bush Administration proposal, but what I am doing, is digging into the past on this issue, because it does bear resemblance and has always been a heated discussion or problem in US history, per se'.

I found this information also. All I am trying to do, is get people to maybe post-pone their condemnation of something until after they have researched this a bit themselves. If an issue means enough for a poster, and I'm not saying you, but if it makes one heated enough to post assertions, opinions and thoughts, wouldn't it also be prudent to investigate what exactly this proposal and others in the past have meant? Thats all I am trying to do.

Here's another bit of information, and pretty good information from what I have read.

"Immigration Bulletin"
Link:
216.239.37.104...:udFz5YWC7qIJ:www.visalaw.com/03nov3/newsletter.pdf+immigration+amnesty+in+the+mid-1990%27s%3F&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Excerpt:

"When a law is routinely violated, a natural question to ask is whether the activity criminalized should have been illegal in the first place. The immigration laws of the United States do not make economic sense and that is the reason why illegal immigration is pervasive and persistent. America can solve this problem by repealing employer sanctions, legalizing the undocumented, eliminating most family-based immigration options and giving employment-based immigration the primacy it richly deserves but has rarely enjoyed. As Vermont Senator George Aitken famously advised at the height of the Vietnam War, we could then declare victory and go home. Any honest observer must conclude that all efforts by the United States Government since November 1986 to end, or even deter, illegal immigration have been a spectacular failure. Let's briefly recount recent history to put things in perspective. First, the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) required all US employers to verify the identity and employment authorization of potential hires, something that had never been done before. Spending on the Border Patrol soared; 2.8 million illegals living here since January 1982 received amnesty; tougher penalties were imposed on the undocumented already in this country and the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act (IIRIRA) took away what few legal protections they had previously enjoyed. So, after this unprecedented assault, what results? Daniel Griswold of the Cato Institute gave the bad news to the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Claims and Adjustments on October 30,2003: " By any real measure of results, the effort since 1986 to constrict illegal immigration has failed. The number of undocumented immigrants in the United States today has doubled since then from an estimated 4 million to 8 million with the undocumented population growing by more than 300,000." Truth be told, the harder it became for illegals to enter this country, the more they were likely to remain once they made it here. The harder we sought to close the door, the more those already inside resolved they had to stay. Before IRCA, most Mexicans who came illegally to the US did not seek permanent status. Secure in the knowledge that they could always return, the pattern of their migration is aptly described by Daniel Griswold as "circular rather than settled." From the end of the Bracero program in 1964 to the enactment of IRCA in 1986, the median stay of undocumented Mexican migrants in the United States was 2.6 years. By the mid-1990's, it had risen to 6.6 years. "A U.S. border policy aimed at reducing illegal immigration to the United States, " Daniel Griswold explained to Congress," has perversely encouraged illegal immigrants to stay." Getting tough on illegal immigration has hardened the resolve of most migrants not to repeat this trial by fire. At the same time, precisely because they had lived in the shadows, most illegals before IRCA had little, if any, incentive to upgrade their job skills, knowing always that deportation lurked around the next corner. A 1995 study by the US Department of Labor found that 43% of Mexican men legalized in the IRCA amnesty of the 1980's tried to invest in their own futures through upgrading their skills and getting more education. For the first time, IRCA gave them a measure of freedom to better their lot and look for a living wage. Let us now go the rest of the way by eliminating not only the underground economy, largely immune to taxation, but also the entire industry of smugglers and false documents that endangers the lives of those who come and seeks to make a profit off of their marginality...."



regards
seekerof

There is no emegration problem in the u.s...just selfish people wanting to deny other people things which they themselves have been givin for free....honestly..give me some kind of link showing real problems about emegrants bringing down the country..im not talking about some kkk style rants about the mexicans stealing our jobs and money because that is B.S....we got 84 billion extra for iraqis who dont live here and will not by products ect. like the mexicans that live in the u.s. do....one of the biggist indicators of a good economy is consumerism..so i think that more people with jobs will mean more money for shops ect.. which means more tax dollars and the cycle continue.....and yes...almost all of your statements are selfish and i do not appolozie for saying it...i say give the damn people access to jobs and live and let live..people are making a big deal about nothing..everything is fine as far as emegrants coming here..we should welcome them and let the build new cities or what ever...americans are not the only people on the earth and we are no better than anyone else . some of your statments of denying needy people of a chance at a good life are simply wrong..if they take some money or jobs from you..well then you need to work a lil bit harder. because they have not taking one damn thing from me!


[Edited on 8-1-2004 by McGotti]

That is all nice but a country exists to serve the existing citizens correct? Not the people that just landed there or want to come there.

That is why we have what is called nationality.

Thus, a country should be run to best take care of EXISTING citizens and not just business people and their servants and agents of the illuminati.

When the unemployment rate is like 3% and everyone that wants a job has one, and welfare and crime are reduced then and only then am I for immigration.

But that is only if the natural population is encouraged at every opportunity and in every way to increase the national birth rate.

That is the RIGHT thing to do.

Originally posted by THENEO
Sorry but I'm not going to argue with you because you cannot see how things have been different in the past 20 years vs the previous 200, not sure why but you can't. Thus a waste of my time.

oh please ....im talking about the foundation of our nation was built by emegrants...hell we all are emegrants..and i for one am not for denying things to people in need because..most people at some point in their life will need help...but unfortunantly..the people who have taken advantage of all the great things about america and get ahead in life often forget or simply do not know what it is like to be a person in need...and thus we get closed borders with guns that partol them..not to keep out attackers..but to keep out people who want to come here and make a better life....let them in..

Originally posted by worldwatcher
What do you people think of Bush's new plan to let illegal immigrants get legal status after working here for 3 years?

I don't like this plan, I think it will keep the minimum wage down and keep unemployment rates high.

The whole thing just don't seem right.

oh F**k yeah now i can bring all my cousens in!!!

you that is what will destroy USA!!!!

and if he does that will then i vote for someone else!!!

illegals come in eat our TAX money make ME pay for there hospital and needs....

and what do they give me?

NOTHING!

(damn where is my shot gun)

Originally posted by THENEO
That is all nice but a country exists to serve the existing citizens correct? Not the people that just landed there or want to come there.

That is why we have what is called nationality.

Thus, a country should be run to best take care of EXISTING citizens and not just business people and their servants and agents of the illuminati.

When the unemployment rate is like 3% and everyone that wants a job has one, and welfare and crime are reduced then and only then am I for immigration.

But that is only if the natural population is encouraged at every opportunity and in every way to increase the national birth rate.

That is the RIGHT thing to do.

its not what you country can do for you..but what you can do for your country...

nationality is a description..not a rule that we must follow..

and as far as waiting for crime rates,unemployment to subside before allowing people the chance at making it in the u.s. is an impposibility..it will constantly go up and down ...

Originally posted by Russian

Originally posted by worldwatcher
What do you people think of Bush's new plan to let illegal immigrants get legal status after working here for 3 years?

I don't like this plan, I think it will keep the minimum wage down and keep unemployment rates high.

The whole thing just don't seem right.

oh F**k yeah now i can bring all my cousens in!!!

you that is what will destroy USA!!!!

and if he does that will then i vote for someone else!!!

illegals come in eat our TAX money make ME pay for there hospital and needs....

and what do they give me?

NOTHING!

(damn where is my shot gun)

oh great...the biggest intellectual around here just arrived ..you gotta love those well thought out from the heart posts that russian constantly gives...hey russian are you native to america because your english sucks..Me as a natural born american...i dont like you or your kind because your taking my damn money!!get out and go back to the motherland[just kidding..just shows you how moronic you reasoning is]i honestly welcome you and who ever else wants to make america better..oh and for crying out load..iraq is eating your tax dollars not mexicans!!! mexicans actually do contribute to the u.s...however small it may be..its more then iraqis ever did...and im sure most of you anti-mexicans are pro-bush/war in iraq aswell..so make up your mind already

[Edited on 8-1-2004 by McGotti]

keep propagating the american DREAM
fall economy fall

hey seekerof....i think im gonna make a sig like yours except change "gun control" to "emegration control"..just as effective I would say..what better way to control the people than to not allow new people in and make the existing citizens harbour false prejudices agianst innocent people..nazi's in germany used the same excuses of crime and unemployment to start their genocide against the jews....but first they started with emegration control and slowly worked there way up the ladder...

Originally posted by banjoechef
keep propagating the american DREAM
fall economy fall

its not the emegrants causing the economy to fall..i would love to see some links about that....its your government and greedy corporations that are stealing away your tax dollars....look at all these stories about corporate curruption,tax shelters for the rich,84 billion for the iraqis....there you guys go...ten times the amount of tax dollars down the toilet right there than the amount spent on mexican emegrants....dont be so blind...10 times the amount spent on mexicans...actually after thinking about it..it probably more like 100 times the amount of tax dollars actually "ROBBED" from your pockets...i mean reallly..we may give impovershed mexicans some medicare ect... but that does not even come close to the amount of tax dollars stolen away from you by your own citizens...blame them for a bad economy..not mexicans

Originally posted by McGotti


oh great...the biggest intellectual around here just arrived ..you gotta love those well thought out from the heart posts that russian constantly gives...so did i lie in my post?hey russian are you native to america because your english sucks..i am RUSSIAN!!!Me as a natural born american...i dont like you or your kind because your taking my damn money!!get out and go back to the motherlandILLEGALS are ILLEGAL! i am not ILLEGAL...[just kidding..just shows you how moronic you reasoning is]accualty it show how stupid you are...i honestly welcome you and who ever else wants to make america better..thank youoh and for crying out loadload?..iraq is eating your tax dollars not mexicans!!!iraq will pay with oil.. and there will be less terrorist.. but ILLEAGALS(NOT ONLY MEXICAINS!)eat up my money just to bring in MORE of there kind! mexicans actually do contribute to the u.syou are stupid...however small it may beyeah the contribute one dollar and take $10 back. not a bad contribution uh?

..its more then iraqis ever didiraq is JUST starting illegals were here way before the Iraq war started...and im sure most of you anti-mexicansMORON! are pro-bush/war in iraq aswell..so make up your mind alreadyps did you know Mexicians have some FINE chicks but they are NOT ILLEGALS!


I was talking of ALL ILLEGALS!!

at my post above and see if i said ANYTHING against the Mexicians!

[Edited on 8-1-2004 by McGotti]

P.S. I DONT GIVE A CARE ABOUT SPELLING...

IT IS BETTER TO MAKE SENSE THEN SPELL!



[Edited on 8-1-2004 by Russian]

I dont even know how to express my anger with this . the country is already growing mexicans come here to work hard and send money home why dont they work hard at home if they spent half there time trying to fix thier country as they do trying to come here and destroy ours they would have a country like ours.

on a second topic i belive any criminal commiting crimes that put them in jail any longer than 10 years should be deported and loose their citizen ship

Originally posted by tealc
I dont even know how to express my anger with this . the country is already growing mexicans come here to work hard and send money home why dont they work hard at home if they spent half there time trying to fix thier country as they do trying to come here and destroy ours they would have a country like ours.

on a second topic i belive any criminal commiting crimes that put them in jail any longer than 10 years should be deported and loose their citizen ship

man you people dont even have anything besides your prejudices to spew out..dont you have any real points???? mexicans dont come here to destroy our country..gimme a break...i swear you people are going word for word what the kkk spews out at thier rallies...

Originally posted by Gazrok


overburdening the available resources....resources allocated and created by our tax dollars...not the illegals'.....

what the ??overburdening the available resources??
what resources are they overburdening exactly??like i said..i have no problem finding a job..making enough money to live comfortably,i have plenty of food to eat,plenty of alcohol to keep me drunk,plenty of gas for my car,i have no problem finding housing in my area that is very south and has lots of"illegals"..so really..what the hell are you people talking about..any links or facts would be great...

McGotti, Russian, Myself included...
I certainly understand your position and argument(s), as I think I do with many who have commented thusly on this thread.....but, lets maintain a certain amount of respect and decorum.....let's all remain calm and abstain from throwing names and stereotyping.
Again, this is a proposal and will have to go through House and Congress, and is still in the undetailed early stages.

Lets keep this discussion focused instead of degrading to other none contributing issues which will obviously derail this discussion.

Btw, I would be interested in seeing that possibly created sig. McGotti.


Peace.


regards
seekerof

Why do Mexicans come to work here? There is a demand for their services.

Why is there a demand? Employers want cheap labor.

Why do employers want cheap labor? Consumers want cheap products.

The fix to this problem is for consumers to only buy from American companies who hire legal people.

Americans (myslef included) are so into themselves that I demand cheaper products and am blind to the consequences.

This is also what sends a lot of work overseas, we do not want expensive products yet we want high wages.

The only way to have high wages is through self employment or being a professional (both require lots of work).

We demand high wages and low cost products, this is a contradiction in a closed economy (cannot happen).

In the end, Mexicans come to work here becuase the American Consumers inderectly want them to.

Do you really know Americans who want to work in fields (seasonaly), be gardeners, work mopping floors, in hotels, in restuarants? I do not know any. Most of the ones I know, educated and uneducated feel that becuase they are American they have a right to high wages without hard work. This is a result of being a World Power. We come to expect good things. And we think we have a birth right to those good things.

To summarize, I believe we can fix this problem, but only through Consumers buying from American companies who hire legal workers (YES YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY MORE).

On another note, having lived in California and having known many illegal workers, (they don't work for me) I would like to share a few facts:

They pay sales taxes all the time.
Those who have fake SS#'s both vaild (you can buy anything on the balck market) and invalid pay SS and income taxes.
Those with valid fake SS#'s pay DMV fees to renew their licenses and registrations.
They have car insurance too.
They are deported, they come back. They never heard of anyone who did not make it in. They may catch you once, twice, three times at the border, eventually they get in. Border Patrol is a joke. They all eventually get in.

The "border' equates to roughly 22,000 miles in length.....thats alot of area to cover and 'nail shut'.



regards
seekerof