We've been hearing a lot about this lately, with different treaties being signed etc.
The original constitution was defeated in referendum in quite a few countries, but this hasn't stopped the faceless, unaccountable beurocrats in brussels from trying to push it through, with the connivance of elected politicians.

The level of corruption in brussels by MEPs and others is quite astounding, the really aren't accountable at all.

Thankfully you can always rely on the french for one thing - if they don't like something they riot - hopefully this will coalesce into proper political protests and this silly attempt at hoodwinking the public will die a natural death.

The thing that really gets me though, is that politicians have said on more than one occasion that the electorate are too ignorant to understand the issues - we understand alright, we understand that these people want to perpetuate corruption and to write their names into the history books at the expense of the electorate.

It's coming time for electoral and beurocratic reform in the EU, and get those lazy buggers off the gravy train paid for by us.

Depending on the country, it may still need ratification by referendum.

Had the original constitution come over to the UK for a vote, that would have been done via Parliament, not a referendum as they had in France et al.

Thing is, even if it only went to Parliament, they could still vote it down or vote for a referendum anyway.

Would hardly describe it as a "Death of Democracy". Europe is one of the most democratic places on Earth.

but remember that blair promised us a referendum, then tried to go back on his word, when he saw the defeats in other countries.

And lets not forget his pal mandelson - a man who committed fraud, and who used his power to get his boyfriend residency - typical of the corruption in europe and the current government.

Yes we have democracy and pretty good too, but give blairs lot another 10 years and that'll change...

Originally posted by stumason
Europe is one of the most democratic places on Earth.

But how could that be if unaccountable beurocrats made the decisions for the people. Just the beurocrats voting on it and renameing it a treaty is not democracy to me.

[edit on 6/14/2007 by shots]

Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by stumason
Europe is one of the most democratic places on Earth.

But how dcould that be if unaccountable beurocrats made the decisions for the people. Just the beurocrats voting on it and renameing it a treaty is not democracy to me.

They write the documents, the elected politicians ratify them both in the european parliament and home parliament, according to the will of the electorate (in theory)

Originally posted by shots
How can they take the EU's Democracy away? Darn right shame.

Hehehe... Sorry, no offense intended, but your response to your own article submission is very stereotypical of your everyday average sheep.

It is responses like that that allow the PTB to push through this kind of crap, because they know that all the masses are going to say to that action is: "Tsk, darn right shame...", and then we will go about our daily lives watching american idol, and wondering about how Paris Hilton is doing in jail. All the while a NWO is inching ever closer...
The shame is not in the PTB taking away our "democracy", the shame is within the population for allowing the PTB to take away our democracy... So the PTB are not to blame at all IMO. It is all of us that are to blame for this for allowing it to happen.

Your question should be, "How can WE let them take our democracy away?"

BTW, I should also mention that I am no better, as you don't see me standing up to the PTB either, but I wanted to point out this inherent flaw in the personality of today's society anyway...

Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by stumason
Europe is one of the most democratic places on Earth.

But how could that be if unaccountable beurocrats made the decisions for the people. Just the beurocrats voting on it and renameing it a treaty is not democracy to me.

[edit on 6/14/2007 by shots]

As with any Law, it is written by Lawyers and bureaucrat's. You don't honestly think that such a complex thing as writing a law is left to politicians do you?

They give input, obviously, but the nitty gritty is defined by lawyers and other unmentionable types. Then the politicians vote on it, whom we elect. Not one law in Europe is "voted on" by the bureaucrats.

The same applies to Law's written anywhere, including the US.

Originally posted by IronDogg
Your question should be, "How can WE let them take our democracy away?"



If you want to pick on my use of the English language fine and no offense taken that is what I meant. However allow me to point out for me to word the question as you suggested I would have had to have been a citizen of the Eu which I am not...

----------

posted by stumason

The same applies to Law's written anywhere, including the US.

In theory yes, but we both know that is not the way it works in real life. Take US current events as an example, where the majority of citizens want imigration reform and fences along our borders yet our electeed officials are trying to jam what they want, not what we want down our throats.

Frankly I fear that is what may happen in the EU



[edit on 6/14/2007 by shots]

Incredible how the people in power will step over the citizens to do as they see fit to do, nothing more than more power to the ruling classes and the ones that dictate the agendas for the people.

I hope the regular citizens in the nations involved raises and demand to counted.

I can not wait when here in the US our corrupted corporate ridden government will try to change the constitution to accommodate for the north American union.

It's already happened with the EU
British grocers, butchers etc fined for selling things in pounds and ounces instead of kilo's
french farmers paid not to grow things
legislation on the length and shape of banana's (hilarious but true)
examples abound
and yet our government accepts this - don't want to use the veto over such stupidness I suppose.

Really - read up on some of the more bizarre laws that the eu has passed - you'll be amazed.

Other side of the coin is that britain is the only place stupid enough to try and enforce them

[edit on 14/6/2007 by budski]

Originally posted by shots
In theory yes, but we both know that is not the way it works in real life. Take US current events as an example, where the majority of citizens want imigration reform and fences along our borders yet our electeed officials are trying to jam what they want, not what we want down our throats.

Frankly I fear that is what may happen in the EU

Indeed. The UK Government is not exactly known for listening to the people either. In theory, they are supposed to be our Representatives, but in practice, they often do not behave like them.

In which case, I think it can be surmised that aside from what the EU bureaucrats are up to, democracy probably died a long time ago anyway....

Originally posted by budski
It's already happened with the EU
British grocers, butchers etc fined for selling things in pounds and ounces instead of kilo's

They can still sell in Imperial measurements, but must also have metric displayed as well.

The only silly buggers who got fined where the old farts who refused to have any metric measurements displayed because they were to stupid to do the math.

It's quite easy, 2.2 Kilo's to a pound. Simple.

Originally posted by budski
french farmers paid not to grow things

Thats the world famous CAP for you. Would reduce the bill for the EU by £30 Billion if the French gave up the CAP. And to think they want us to give up our £3 billion quid rebate!

Originally posted by budski
legislation on the length and shape of banana's (hilarious but true)

I'm sure that is untrue. It was blown all out of proportion by The Sun. i forget the details mind you.

Originally posted by budski
examples abound
and yet our government accepts this - don't want to use the veto over such stupidness I suppose.

Thing is, these "laws" are part of Treaty's we signed. We can't just opt out of biuts of Treaty's we don't like. We shouldn't have signed them initially.

Originally posted by budski
Really - read up on some of the more bizarre laws that the eu has passed - you'll be amazed.

They're not laws, they're directives. Often, they are blown out of proportion by the Mail and the Sun to increase sales.

Originally posted by budski
Other side of the coin is that britain is the only place stupid enough to try and enforce them

Not true.

I agree on the fact that the average citizen understand nothing on the issues regarding a constitution.And so i am (and i have studied it!)
The big brains figured we would for sure be down for whatever france should be prepared for..but no=>u get it wrong buddies ...shoot again

The Dutchmen have voted No to this constitution too and NOT to mention the Spannish and Polish that wanna include GOD into the picture (not lol)

I mean it's not like france is the only one on earth not happy with it

I don't believe in a united Europe as suggested by this constitution it's too complicate and too dangerous.I'm quite sure everybody wanna keep their identities.

They should focus on building up a new army first (if possible), and severely restrict the borders of europe, because we all know few countries are the weakness points.What happen to our economy then.....i ask y'all

First step was the economical stage: Fine, we did it but now get us a true army and protect our interests

Then we'll see for an "european identity" & a "president"