A Public Banning Today...

I just read over the ''Shanksville bucket'' thread.

The first and most obvious fault was that it was posted in a
''I know how they did it'' 'FACT!!..'
He could have realistically been very correct..

BUT in presenting something as a 'fact' and taking obvious offence to being questioned about it afterwards,resorting to insulting everyone that took an opposing stance is not the way to present yourself as a credible figure.

I think the reason the whole thread took the turn it did was 100% because of the way it was presented.
If you present 'FACTS' you must be able to back them up against counter-claim. Is this not the point of discussion,learning and educating yourself and others?

You can bet your sweet behind if someone came to my house and acted like this they would be shown the door.
If they were then found out to be bad mouthing behind my back about being booted then I'm afraid I'd be hunting them down for an 'Apology' too.
No question..
VERY wise choice and very diplomatically handled by the Admin.
I don't see how anyone could have a complaint or start throwing 'internal censorship' or 'conspiracy within..' allegations.

It's just about sticking to the 'BE NICE' rule.

I've been guilty of it after heated discussions before too.It just takes a little step back for a while,regather your composure and hit back where it counts..
Undeniable research and evidence/'facts'..
or compromise that you do not know everything.
Simple and polite really.
Everybody still loves everyone else and we can go off skipping happily into the sunset

I was not around when Killtown got banned, so I don't know what all went on. But I will admit I am confused to why he got banned - the confusion lies in the original post of this thread and in subsequent responses to inquiries.

Now, my opinion on Killtown is that he was dogmatically married to his theories, and I also agree he tended to post things here and then seem to just not come back to the thread. But those things are not bannable offenses. And in his defense, I believe Killtown has done an extraordinary job of 9/11 research. It doesn't matter if I agree with what he did with that research in terms of theories, he did a lot of digging and archiving and analyzing. And I appreciate the respository he has created.

But the main thing that confuses me about the banning is the reference of him stating things as fact when they were just theories. As an example - the thread title referenced above that had the word "theory" edited at the end. I'd like to point out that right now on the most recent posts list there are at least TWO (probably more) threads that have thread titles that begin with "PROOF" and then make a definitive statement in the title, while the original post in each thread is just a presentation of interpretation of some evidence. It seems that people do not understand the difference between declaring something "evidence" and "proof". To decide you will claim something "evidence" is almost inherently accepted as your opinion, while declaring something "proof" is to make it a statement of fact.

With all that said - it seems Killtown just did the same thing as the posters of the threads I reference to be on ATS right now. And by the way, in one of the threads I'm referring to I actually spoke against another member's treatment of the OP because they were being accusatory of the OP because of the errant choice of "proof" in the title. It seems in all these cases the threads could simply be moved to Skunk Works which is the forum that was created for speculation by members.

As is usual in these type of situations, I'm certain I don't know everything attached to the incident, but still, I'm confused by it.

Originally posted by Valhall
I'd like to point out that right now on the most recent posts list there are at least TWO (probably more) threads that have thread titles that begin with "PROOF" and then make a definitive statement in the title..

I haven't seen these but I am pretty certain that if the OP of these threads started re-acting to questions from ATSers in the same deridery fashion as Killtown did in his 'bucket' thread,then we would see more bannings.

It's easy to be married to your theory and regard it as fact but it's in the handling of the course of discussion that goes with it.

John Lear is an absolutely perfect example of gentlemanly conduct.
While I do not subscribe to ALL his theories,he will always get nothing but respect from me because of the way I see him handle his doubters,some of whom can be quite harsh in their questioning too

I have not read the thread in question, and like I said, don't know the full story.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
A few. It's always been in relation to "high profile" members for which we want to inform the membership as to the reasons behind our actions. However, it's been a while since there was such a "public action." I believe the last one was a former site Super Moderator.

Is it possible I can see these with my own eyes? Sorry if I seem insulting by not just relying on people's words.

That's already been outlined more than once.

Yes, it's been outlined many many times, however none of them have been proven once. Can't you provide at least one link to any of his alleged violations here? If there were so many committed by him to warrant a public banning, it shouldn't be too hard to produce one.

You're referring to this thread: Shanksville engine planted by a backhoe bucket? (theory)
The only "change" applied was the addition of "(theory)" to the subject line of the thread. If you're going to make accusations, at least be accurate.

Yes, he started his thread as an answer and your mods CHANGED his thread to a question; EXACTLY what I had asked, so I WAS accurate Mr. Condescending.

I see no "attacks" from staff, and no personal attacks on Killtown from ATS staff in the thread... I only see a mixture of (sometimes intense) disagreement with this theory from members.

Here's what I see:

elevatedone (Forum Moderator) - "this is probably the most absurd "theory" that I've heard thus far."
thelibra (Forum Moderator) - "Killtown, in the future, please refrain from just making things up and presenting them as fact. I'm editing the title of this thread, and I'd also consider yourself on thin ice as far as this forum goes."
Springer (Site Owner) - " Or maybe, just maybe, the people know BOLLOCKS when they see it and comment accordingly."

"elevatedone" is ridiculing his theory, "thelibra" is accusing him of making things up and them threatens to ban him at the forum, and the site owner of all people is ridiculing Killtown! Is this the kind of behavior by the site owner and his mods to exhibit at ATS? I hope not.

I also see at least one reasonable accusation of photo tampering from Killtown to make his case.

I just checked that out and I agree with Killtown that the photos look the same, so that person's allegations of photo tampering are erroneous.

I am really starting to think you have some personal/political agenda against Killtown. How about you allow him back on to defend himself against all of your, as I see them, slanderous accusations against him. As much as I like to play "defense attorney", it is too time consuming and I don't know the whole story.

And I hadn't noticed this before, but it looks like Killtown had voluntarily left ATS within that thread?

To me it looks like he got banned and one of you mods closed the thread. However, if you feel the need to slander Killtown once more because you know he can't come on here and defend himself, you go right ahead.

Killtown got banned because he REFUSED to abide the TAC, PERIOD. We'd ban ANYONE who acted like he was WELL before we banned him, we tried on several levels to work with him but to no avail.

END OF STORY.

Springer...

For the record, the post of mine that P's Box, is referring to, was made before I became a MOD.

[edit on 19-8-2007 by elevatedone]

Originally posted by PandorasBox


I am really starting to think you have some personal/political agenda against Killtown. How about you allow him back on to defend himself against all of your, as I see them, slanderous accusations against him. As much as I like to play "defense attorney", it is too time consuming and I don't know the whole story.

Well, if you've followed killtowns career, so to speak, he has a propensity to get banned pretty much everywhere that he registers. He wears his bannings like a badge of honor and plays the martyr. At least this is MY experience here.

Originally posted by Springer
Killtown got banned because he REFUSED to abide the TAC, PERIOD. We'd ban ANYONE who acted like he was WELL before we banned him, we tried on several levels to work with him but to no avail.

END OF STORY.

Springer...

Wow, now the site owners are coming in to try to squash this.

Yes yes, I know I know, Killtown "violated" your rules. You guys have made that ABUNDANTLY clear. Haven't I made it abundantly clear that all I want to see is proof of what you guys are alleging against Killtown? Will I ever get to see any proof to know if Killtown was just trying to get sympathy by saying he was banned for political reasons, or do you just want me to take your word for it that Killtown was being a "bad boy"?

Originally posted by PandorasBox
Will I ever get to see any proof to know if Killtown was just trying to get sympathy by saying he was banned for political reasons, or do you just want me to take your word for it that Killtown was being a "bad boy"?

You have already been shown that. A better question would be, "Why are you championing a banned member, as your only participation in this site?" One of many he's been banned on btw. Agenda? Methinks so.

Originally posted by elevatedone
For the record, the post of mine that P's Box, is referring to, was made before I became a MOD.

So ATS selects people who ridicule others for moderators... Great.

You say ridicule, I say it was the truth. Apples and Oranges.

Besides ATS doesn't have to answer to you why and how they choose staff.

Why don't you just move on? Seriously.

You asked why, and you were told. You want proof, you can't handle the truth... oh sorry... that didn't help did it?

Seriously P's Box, just let it go already, if you like ATS and want to be here, try particpating a little instead of just complaining and causing a disturbance?



[edit on 19-8-2007 by elevatedone]

Originally posted by intrepidWell, if you've followed killtowns career, so to speak, he has a propensity to get banned pretty much everywhere that he registers. He wears his bannings like a badge of honor and plays the martyr. At least this is MY experience here.

And your point is?

Originally posted by PandorasBox

Originally posted by intrepidWell, if you've followed killtowns career, so to speak, he has a propensity to get banned pretty much everywhere that he registers. He wears his bannings like a badge of honor and plays the martyr. At least this is MY experience here.

And your point is?

What's YOURS would be a better question imo.

reply to post by PandorasBox


Why don't you look it up for your self all you need to know is on ATS, it's not up to any of us to get it for you, For all I know you are Killtown or a troll judging by your name and just here to cause more crap.
Use the search function and stop your whining of show me show me,



[edit on 19/8/2007 by Sauron]

Originally posted by intrepidYou have already been shown

Of course I have an agenda... I'm against censorship, especially if it's been committed against one my fellow truthers. I came here to try to find the truth about why KT was banned because "the truth is in here," right? I also find it extremely disturbing that a well know conspiracy site humiliated someone questioning the 911 attacks with a "public banning." If you guys can do a public banning, can't I do a public questioning of this public banning?





[edit: fixed quote tags]

[edit on 20-8-2007 by 12m8keall2c]

Originally posted by PandorasBox

Originally posted by intrepidYou have already been shown that. A better question would be, "Why are you championing a banned member, as your only participation in this site?" One of many he's been banned on btw. Agenda? Methinks so.

I'm sorry... am I making you guys uncomfortable? Would you like me to stop posting about this on your forum and go to another one so you won't feel nervous about having your authority questioned?

Not at all. I'm SURE you came from another forum to stir up trouble. You don't listen to what's told to you concerning killtown. You just continue with you are attempting, I would call it an attempt at character assassination of ATS. Too bad that the reader can see this and make up their own mind.

Of course I have an agenda... I'm against censorship, especially if it's been committed against one my fellow truthers. I came here to try to find the truth about why KT was banned because "the truth is in here," right? I also find it extremely disturbing that a well know conspiracy site humiliated someone questioning the 911 attacks with a "public banning." If you guys can do a public banning, can't I do a public questioning of this public banning?

Thank you for confirming my assertions.

Are you going to ban me now for standing up for a fellow truther who has made substantial contributions to the 911 truth movement

I don't know where that was. Here he disrupted, as he does on many site. BTW, you're a collegue of his, how many sites has he managed to get himnself banned from because of his conduct? You would know better than I.

and yet has still, as I see it, been unjustifiably banned here?

Yeah, right.

Pandorasbox,

I accidentally edited one of your posts above. I meant to "quote" you.
I apologize. Please add your remarks back to that post if you want to.

The removed remarks are the same one's that Intrepid has quoted and replied to, so I don't need to reply to them now.

Again I'm sorry.

Crickets all of a sudden.

Hmm.

Originally posted by PandorasBox
Are you going to ban me now for standing up for a fellow truther who has made substantial contributions to the 911 truth movement

Help me out here a little bit will you?

Could you offer up which of the 9/11 Truth organizations he has affiliations with?

I've had some on-again off-again dealings with the NYC 9/11 Truth folks: www.ny911truth.org... who seem to have a rather large event coming up in a few weeks:
ready4mainstream.ny911truth.org
I don't see his name on the list, unless, of course, he's using his real name for the event.

I've heard through someone in the NYC group that Killtown was banned from contributing to the largest 9/11 Truth website, www.911blogger.com... Although I've not heard the reason, I suppose we can assume he's not affiliated with them.

I've also had some communications with www.truthmove.org... and have given them 10 million free banner impressions on ATS to help give their efforts a kick-start. He doesn't seem to be involved with them either.


And... did he happen to fill you in on this?

Before things went sour in a couple threads, I sent him this U2U:

Sorry for the delay in response... some busy times in the ATS business office.

What are you up to lately? Would you consider creating some 9/11-focused articles for our "Featured Article" email newsletters?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And he responded...

let me read over it. about to fall asleep. i'll get back to you shortly

Now... that's hardly the actions of someone out to "censor" him. And clearly, since all of his posts remain, completely unedited, he, nor his theories, have never been censored on ATS. And as I've said more than once, he's welcome to approach us about re-instatement.