Imagine, blueprint for society

it seems to me that john lennon laid down a blueprint for the perfect world with his song "imagine"

let's examine the song piece by piece

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

ok, that seems simple enough. imagine a world in which people die and just die. a world where people don't live for some sort of religious judgement day (see reagan administration) but instead live for a sustainable future. imagine a world where people don't blow themselves up for their religion.

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

no countries, a truely united world. imagine no religion. two of the biggest contributing factors to the start of a war (religion and nationalism) gone. tranquility at last.

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

pretty straightfoward here. stop telling people that they're being unrealistic idealists and help create their idealist world, telling us that we can't do it is the thing stopping it from happening.

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

no greed and hunger..
well, that definitely gets rid of war. a world in which we share everything, nobody starving to death and nobody having obscene amounts of wealth. a world where we can truely focus on advancing humanity.

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

and then it just repeats this part.

so, what do you think?

It would be like a new Order for a New World.



[edit on 6/14/2007 by Spoodily]

Originally posted by Spoodily
It would be like a new Order for a New World.

how did i not expect this...

anyway, how about we discuss the merits of the type of world john lennon imagined

Can't really see the no wars scenario working in Lennons 'new world' (for want of a better phrase)

Really, I for one would probably get boared fairly quickly - the devil makes work for idle hands etc.

Some one somewhere will kick off - hey presto sooner or later we resort to a simular world as the one we have today.

Maybe for all thats wrong with the world today - this is our happy medium, the sort of state humanity would naturally gravitate to (also factoring in the technology available at the time) - just a thought

Originally posted by Now_Then
Can't really see the no wars scenario working in Lennons 'new world' (for want of a better phrase)

well, i hope someday you'll join us...

Really, I for one would probably get boared fairly quickly - the devil makes work for idle hands etc.

well, we could occupy ourselves with advancing the human condition and art

Some one somewhere will kick off - hey presto sooner or later we resort to a simular world as the one we have today.

how?
in a world where there is no greed, hunger, war, nationalism, and religion... what would start it?

Maybe for all thats wrong with the world today - this is our happy medium, the sort of state humanity would naturally gravitate to (also factoring in the technology available at the time) - just a thought

that could be true. violence, bloodshed, and intolerance could be our natural urges... but we've learned to overcome many of those natural urges in favor of thinking so far, so why not this one

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
in a world where there is no greed, hunger, war, nationalism, and religion... what would start it?

Unfortunatly I simply believe its human nature for some to feel the need to dominate over other (or at least feel that they are).

Unless this trate is selectively bred out (thats a whole other thread in its self!) eventually factions will devolop, friction will occur and dissagreements will multiply.

Pls don't think i'm one of those with no faith in people - our nature has got us this far. But a completly peacefull world IMO is impossable.

Originally posted by Now_Then
Unfortunatly I simply believe its human nature for some to feel the need to dominate over other (or at least feel that they are).

Unless this trate is selectively bred out (thats a whole other thread in its self!) eventually factions will devolop, friction will occur and dissagreements will multiply.

well, we could come up with ways to remedy that. competitions will still exist, achievement would still exist. we really would just have to redirect those feelings

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
would just have to redirect those feelings

And how EXACTLY would one begin to effect said changes?

By making the changes you would, in effect be starting the ball rolling.

Would mountin climbing still be allowed? Someones mother may not agree

Now multiply that desision (with all the possable permutations and connotations) by every decision that would travel through the average mind over say 24 hours.

Then multiply that result by the population of the planet (6,720,586,044 as of 00:30 Gmt 15/06/07 ) And that will only give you one day of cognitive thought.

Now you can begin including any thing else that could happen (earth quake, second comming of Jesus, McDonnalds admitting they were wrong)

Ever heard or chaos theroy? If there is a God, do you not think this is the reason we were 'blessed' with free will? Was it for our benifit, or to prevent him from going grey early!?

Do you want to beat me up yet?

Cooperation is the answer, the elimination of greed. The problem is that our world is built around greed. The individuals who formed the blueprint for modern society believe that human beings are driven by self interest and self interest only. It brings the game theory of the cold war down to the individual level. Find a method to reverse this and you have yourself a descent theory.

How do you propose to eliminate greed? While not making things worse?

The world is inequal, define greed.

Greed operates on a linear scale, some acts are higher levels of greed than others. A corporation that eliminates pensions to bolster a profit margin for the sake of share prices would be an act of greed. There is nothing greedy however about working a fifty hour week in order to scrape by, in fact if you are in this situation it is likely that you are experiencing the negative effects of some other individual's greed. The action need not be monetary however. I don't have the wisdom to offer a suggestion on how to eliminate greed entirely.

Greed is wanting more than you need. That's what society is built on right now. People want things they don't need. And the greediest are the one's pumping the advertisements out to help keep people wanting things they don't need.

Society doesn't need to be like this. This system creates too large a gap between people. I just don't think there should be billionaire owners while people are still starving. There needs to be limits to how wealthy one man/organization can get. Some things should also be free, like public transportation, food, and clothing. I can envision the creation of technology that would help make this be possible. Imagine a card similar to a credit card that would allow poor people to get the food, clothing, transportation, and other necessities they'd need to live their lives. There would be no charge for these people, but they would be limited in how much they could be provided. This could be in the form of microchips that are implanted into the person, to ensure that these things aren't exploited by the greedy looking to horde as much of these services as they can(like welfare is being abused now).

Once you get into the discussion of micro chips on here I imagine there are those who are worried about their security and are afraid of a "1984" scenario with big brother watching. It's clear to me those looking for peace and those looking for control have the same type of vision for the world; They both want a united world. The peaceful people want it so that those suffering will be relieved, and that the oppressed will be freed. That the issues that separate us now will be erased, and we realize we have too much in common to focus on our differences. Those who want control want a united world so that there power is absolute. They want one government so there is no opposition to there rule, one religion so people stay in line, one class for the leaders to exploit.

We need to oppose the way the system is today, not wait for the type of system that may be put in place tomorrow, for it may be too late. I don't care about secret societies or conspiracies. It doesn't matter who is in charge of the system, or if there's a group secretly in charge plotting all of this. All we need to know is that this system is not the one that humanity needs. There are far too many suffering far too much, and far too few enjoying far too much in this current world. We stand up by opposing exactly what runs this society. Reject excess. Don't spend on luxuries you don't need. I'm not saying cut out your hobbies, you like TV, keep the satellite dish. I'm saying if you're a woman, stop buying expensive shoes you don't need or rarely wear. If you're a husband, get them to stop. Also, forget jewelry, stop obsessing over shiny rocks. Seriously, shiny rocks? see, they have you suckered into thinking that shiny rock should mean more than it does by attaching sentimental value to it. You could pick up a pebble off the street and put the same value into that. The true value isn't in the engagement ring, it's in the loving bond you share. cherish that and stop buying the jewelry.

Men, this obsession with cars has got to stop. and how big a television do you really need? There comes a point where enough is enough. you only need 1 car, and it's main purpose should simply be to get you from point a to point b in one piece. too much emphasis is placed on appearance, on "status" when it comes to objects like these, while the main purpose of the object is almost considered secondary. These rich athletes don't seem to learn from this either, how many of them have cars they never drive sitting in garages of houses they never live in? speaking of sports, how much crap you own with your team's logo does not show how big a fan you are of that team. support them with cheers, not with your cash.

A world can be created where man is valued over money, but we need to stand up and make it. Through peace, and not with violence, our goals can be achieved.

We just need to break down all our barriers, and start HELPING out one another, instead of trying to Debunk them, or Denied them the human rights they deserve,

alot of our problem lays in finacial situation of the world, Not just greed, but the drive that money will cure all problems, Its the Belief that we can cure all problems that needs to be address, Becuz we can, and have shown that possibility in all walsk of life,

Right now there is a bunch of college students changing the way of darfur's Children by aiming to get more schools built and housing for them( becuz they were sick of no one else doing anything for them, due to lack of profit), But are the powers that invested in IRAQ or the New 700,000.00 USD SINGLE Family Homes in our area and thruout the world (while 100,000's aRE LOSING THEIR homes due to high morgage rates and lack of being able to pay them?)
Doing anything about the worlds hunger or lack of housing problem?

Wanna fix Immagration? Help rebuild mexico, then they wouldnt wanna come to our land for help and send tha thelp back home, becuz their land will be just as profitable as ours.

Its just a matter of money and lack of it in many of these investments,

Money is the root of all evil, But its a root most of us survive on.

It would be nice if money wasn't an issue and people could pursue their true passions. If projects weren't dictated by politics and profit but rather by their potential benefit to humanity. There's no good reason why people should be starving any where any more. We have the technology and resources to eliminate most of the world's suffering right now.

Originally posted by Kingdrakethe3rd
Greed is wanting more than you need. That's what society is built on right now. People want things they don't need. And the greediest are the one's pumping the advertisements out to help keep people wanting things they don't need.

Define "need".
It sounds like a simple question, doesnt' it?
I don't "need" an apartment, after all, people have been sleeping outdoors for centuries, haven't they? Ditto my car, my computer...I don't "need" clothes, for that matter...it's not like the Arizona climate is going to give me frostbite. Admittedly, this is reducto ad absurdium at its finest, but do you see my point? "Need" varies widely from person to person, and circumstance to circumstance.

Society doesn't need to be like this. This system creates too large a gap between people. I just don't think there should be billionaire owners while people are still starving. There needs to be limits to how wealthy one man/organization can get.

So, there should be a limit on how much money I can make?
Who sets the limit?
Better question: why should the limit exist at all? If I'm willing to work two jobs, and make careful investments with my extra cash, why should I not be able to reap as much as I can get from my efforts? If I'm not going to be allowed to recieve the benefits of my labor, or my financial risk-taking, then why should I do the labor or take the risks?

I don't like the fact that CEOs are making millions while their companies are losing money...I think that's a travesty. But at the same time, I'm not sure I like the idea that the government is going to tell me that I can't make money beyond a certain amount, either.

Some things should also be free, like public transportation, food, and clothing. I can envision the creation of technology that would help make this be possible. Imagine a card similar to a credit card that would allow poor people to get the food, clothing, transportation, and other necessities they'd need to live their lives. There would be no charge for these people, but they would be limited in how much they could be provided.

And here, we get to the real problem with the "Imagine" society. You want to make public transportation free? That's wonderful. Now, who pays for the busses? Who pays for spare parts for the busses? Who pays the mechanics who work on the busses? Who pays the bus drivers? Surely you don't expect companies to build busses for free? You don't expect mechanics to spend thousands of dollars on tools and shop equipment and not be paid for their skill?

You want to make food free? How are the farmers supposed to make a living? Even with the system as it stands, the best way to make a small fortune as a farmer is to start with a large one. It's dangerous, expensive, back-breaking work, and now you expect it to be done for no return?

Clothing should be free? I guess tailors don't need to eat, either.

Let me guess...the "rich" can pay for all those things, right? Oh...I forgot...there ARE no rich people, because we can only make so much money in this wonderful world you've Imagined.

You might think you're describing an ideal, utopian world where nobody is hungry, nobody is poor, and we all sing Kumbayah around the campfire at night while toasting marshmallows...but what you're actually imagining is a world where nobody is wealthy, nobody is well-fed (except perhaps the Amish), nobody has clothes (except for the local seamstress), and nobody goes anywhere (because the busses broke down, and the mechanics are too busy trying to become farmers or barter for food).

Heck, if I was feeling REALLY cynical, I might even go so far as to ask why, if Mr. Lennon and the other Beatles thoguht "Imagine" was such a great blueprint for society, and really believed that "All You Need is Love"...why did they insist on getting crass, commercial PAY for their music? Maybe they just couldn't Imagine things vividly enough?

Originally posted by Brother Stormhammer


Define "need".
It sounds like a simple question, doesnt' it?
I don't "need" an apartment, after all, people have been sleeping outdoors for centuries, haven't they? Ditto my car, my computer...I don't "need" clothes, for that matter...it's not like the Arizona climate is going to give me frostbite. Admittedly, this is reducto ad absurdium at its finest, but do you see my point? "Need" varies widely from person to person, and circumstance to circumstance.

So, there should be a limit on how much money I can make?
Who sets the limit?
Better question: why should the limit exist at all? If I'm willing to work two jobs, and make careful investments with my extra cash, why should I not be able to reap as much as I can get from my efforts? If I'm not going to be allowed to recieve the benefits of my labor, or my financial risk-taking, then why should I do the labor or take the risks?

I don't like the fact that CEOs are making millions while their companies are losing money...I think that's a travesty. But at the same time, I'm not sure I like the idea that the government is going to tell me that I can't make money beyond a certain amount, either.


And here, we get to the real problem with the "Imagine" society. You want to make public transportation free? That's wonderful. Now, who pays for the busses? Who pays for spare parts for the busses? Who pays the mechanics who work on the busses? Who pays the bus drivers? Surely you don't expect companies to build busses for free? You don't expect mechanics to spend thousands of dollars on tools and shop equipment and not be paid for their skill?

You want to make food free? How are the farmers supposed to make a living? Even with the system as it stands, the best way to make a small fortune as a farmer is to start with a large one. It's dangerous, expensive, back-breaking work, and now you expect it to be done for no return?

Clothing should be free? I guess tailors don't need to eat, either.

Let me guess...the "rich" can pay for all those things, right? Oh...I forgot...there ARE no rich people, because we can only make so much money in this wonderful world you've Imagined.

You might think you're describing an ideal, utopian world where nobody is hungry, nobody is poor, and we all sing Kumbayah around the campfire at night while toasting marshmallows...but what you're actually imagining is a world where nobody is wealthy, nobody is well-fed (except perhaps the Amish), nobody has clothes (except for the local seamstress), and nobody goes anywhere (because the busses broke down, and the mechanics are too busy trying to become farmers or barter for food).

Need is what's necessary for survival and I'd expand it to getting what's necessary for a realistic, non-materialistic enjoyment of life. It's not going to be the same for everybody, nor should it be. People enjoy different hobbies, people enjoy different lifestyles. Don't want to change that. But there certainly shouldn't be such a gap between the rich and the poor, and the greed that inspires men to want more of material while people die from deaths their money could prevent is insane.

And when I say a limit on how much one man/organization can make, I don't mean a guy trying to work two jobs and maximize his earnings. That guy isn't even on the radar for people who would be targetted for having too much while others have too little.

transportation, food, clothing, these things would still all cost money But for those who couldn't afford them there would be opportunities to acquire these things for free. The money taken from the rich can be used to fund many things to help the poor. See, there are no rich people, but the money from the rich people's organizations still exists. Instead of sitting in there pockets, it gets used for real good.

The problem with that (as good as it sounds) is what happens when the "rich peoples' money" is gone. At that point, your choices are limited....either the 'free' stuff starts costing money (which won't work because, by definition, the people in question can't afford it), the free stuff stops (which violates the basic assumption of your new society, since we now have hungry people all over again), or we find a new group of people to extract cash from. It won't take long to run through that money, either. Let's take Bill Gates (AKA Satan ) as an example. The highest I can recall him being worth was in the vicinity of $100,000,000,000. Presumably, that's too much money for anybody, so let's confiscate all of it, and give it to the poorest half of the US population. That means that about 150,000,000 people will be getting checks (irony of ironies, Bill Gates will get one. How's that for justice?). It works out to $666.66 per check (I told you he was Satan, didn't I?). Once that cash is gone, though, where do we get the next check? And the one after that? Your system relies on the very rich people it reviles...you need them to keep creating outrageous flows of cash that you can confiscate and redistribute.

Don't you think that we can do better than this?

Originally posted by wingman77

It would be nice if money wasn't an issue and people could pursue their true passions.

China and Cuba are still Communist. Need a listing for flights ?

Hoping you have a nice life,
Lex

Originally posted by Lexion
China and Cuba are still Communist. Need a listing for flights ?

china is far from communist at this point
and cuba is only pseudo communistic.

the problem in those two places isn't the whole "communism" thing, it's the lack of reasonable government.

and a baseline socialist system in which you're given everything you need for survival (food, water, shelter, healthcare and education) and that's it.... isn't that a reasonable thing?

[edit on 6/16/07 by madnessinmysoul]