Edited post:

Now that I see the new thread topic, I believe it is fair.

[edit on 6/13/2007 by Griff]

The post needs to be changed to Shanksville engine removed by backhoe bucket, and then it would be correct. However, he is stating that it put it there.

Please explain to me how they spread the debris, and moved the heavy equipment in with no one noticing? That would be step one in proving your theory.

BTW, the theory of relativity can be proven, it is the Special relativity that was suggested by a simple patent clerk.

Originally posted by Griff
To all who are claiming "hoax". This is not a hoax.

If it's not a hoax, why would the thread author need to alter the color and contrast in the source imagery to make his point? A simple glance at the original higher-resolution source imagery shows some unmentioned manipulation has happened.

Thanks for the alteration, the OP portrayed this as fact and not theory, he backs his " Evidence " up with nothing, he is clearly showing the true colours of what he and his friends are about.. Absolutely disgraceful..
I dont like suggesting anyone should be banned, but what these guys are saying about ATS on their Blogs and on other sites is more than disrespectful...
They are calling ATS, its members and Mods all the names under the sun, just for a bit of publicity..
If they dont like it here, and they disrespect us on other sites and Blogs on the Internet, why the hell do we continue allowing them to post their drivel on here??
I say ban the lot of them, ATS would be a better place without Disinformationists with an obvious agenda.

mister.old.school

That is what I am wondering and is the reason I am asking him to define exactly what 'evidence' is? Since anything that contradicts his theory is either planted or fake. So the natural question is why the changes to the original picture?

Originally posted by mister.old.school
If it's not a hoax, why would the thread author need to alter the color and contrast in the source imagery to make his point? A simple glance at the original higher-resolution source imagery shows some unmentioned manipulation has happened.

Well, I'm not positive that he was the one who manipulated that photo. Are you? If he is not the original manipulator, then he is guilty of perpetuating a hoax...nothing more.

He is guilty alright for posting something as fact , when in fact there is not one iota of evidence to support his wild speculation..
In fact the doctoring of the photos indicate to me, either he or someone with a similar agenda as him that this is a total hoax.
And you are just as bad going around threads trying to back up these fraudsters...

.

[edit on 6/13/2007 by Gools]

Originally posted by Fowl Play
And you are just as bad going around threads trying to back up these fraudsters...

Oh really? So, by denying ignorance, you are calling me a hoaxer now?

Furthermore, I haven't read all the CGI threads etc. that Killtown is involved with. If these acussations are stemming from those posts, then that's just childish in my opinion.

[edit on 6/13/2007 by Griff]

ON-TOPIC, or not at all

The title Has been edited to reflect it being a THEORY.


Please keep the responses focused on-topic, whether in support of or otherwise.


Prior to posting, I would ask the you consider the following:

Any inappropriate comments, insult, topic derailment, or trolling will result in immediate posting ban or account termination

* emphasis mine

Thank You.

We now return you to the Actual topic of discussion:
» 9/11 Conspiracies » Shanksville engine planted by a backhoe bucket? (theory) >> Post Reply


 

[edit on 13-6-2007 by 12m8keall2c]

Fowl Play

I realize your anger, but there are people here who contribute a lot to our knowledge about what happened, Griff is an engineer who does a lot of good here analyzing the physics of the collapse of the towers.

We all have to put aside our feelings at times and just look at what the people are saying and refute it logically. I realize your mistrust on certain individuals but the mods here are in a catch-22, they ban people and they would look like they are promoting censorship and then the blogs and web sites that many of these people belong will be ripe with accusations.

Many people here hold that with 9/11 something seriously wrong happened, we feel there was some gov manipulation.

Some here hold that there was no gov manipulation but we have to use logic more then our feelings when dealing with this.

I personally believe it was in the black ops, the more hidden part of the gov working with inteligence.

Look up Operation Northwoods.(now declassifed) Gov's do plan similar types.
of events.

If you hold the opposite view then your welcome to post threads and your ideas and many here would be interested. I also realize 9/11 is a touchy subject because of what happened.

I also mistrust certain people who post questionable things but we have to use logic more then our feeling in response.



[edit on 13-6-2007 by talisman]

Originally posted by killtown
This is what the perps used the plant the "Flight 93 engine" in the crater:

I agree with Killtown that there is something not right with the backhoe/engine photo.

First, look at where the engine is in relation to the crater. The overhead crater shots show an apparent wing line, which would be adjacent to the engine. However, the engine photo doesn't appear to show the wing line. Also, the orientation of the wing line points towards the trees across from the service road. If you look closely at the engine photo, you can see the tree line in the background. There is no wing line in the engine photo that would align towards the tree line.

Second, look at the engine itself and the lack of dirt around it. The photo seems to imply that the scoop of the excavator uncovered the engine. However, there's no way an excavator scoop like the one shown in the photo would have been able to carefully dig out the dirt above and around the engine.

Third, the engine appears about 1 foot underground. The crater was said to be around 10 feet deep. It doesn't make sense that the engine would somehow be able to stop within 1 foot of the surface when the black boxes were said to be buried something like 16-30 feet deep.

Fourth, look at the angle of the engine. FL 93 is said to have hit at a 45 degree angle, but the engine appears nearly vertical. I don't see how the engine could NOT have been wedged at the same 45 degree angle that the plane hit. In fact, the damage to the engine seems to be from a force along the axis of the engine, not at a 45 degree angle.

It seems to me that the engine in the photo was put there for the photo. Whether or not it was excavated further down and then placed there, I don't know. But I think Killtown raises legitimate questions about the photo.

[edit on 13-6-2007 by nick7261]

Can someone please answer the questions I posted about how this would have been pulled off? This would help to prove/disprove the theory that is presented.

If we are deny ignorance, we must first not act ignorant. Lets look at the facts.


1. How did they move everything there with no one noticing?
2. How was the debris field spread since eyewitness reports state none of that including 2 pilots.
3. How did they know the exact time of the crash?
4. Why not allow the plane to hit the White House, this would have given the shadow government the oppurtunity to really put the citizens ver the barrel?
5. There were bodies in Shanksville.
6. There was alot of debris attached to manifest names

Lets start here....

Originally posted by esdad71
1. How did they move everything there with no one noticing?

Have you ever been to Shanksville? It's not NYC. Just answering the question.

2. How was the debris field spread since eyewitness reports state none of that including 2 pilots.

I'm not understanding your question. Are you saying the debris field wasn't spread out? Or are you asking how they would have spread the debris field out?

3. How did they know the exact time of the crash?

How do you know the exact time of crash? Plus, the official time of crash doesn't coincide with the flight recorder. There's 3 minutes missing I believe.

4. Why not allow the plane to hit the White House, this would have given the shadow government the oppurtunity to really put the citizens ver the barrel?

I believe it was propaganda. We needed heros on that day. Just my opinion.

5. There were bodies in Shanksville.

I thought the coroner on the seen said there weren't. How does an aluminum plane basically disintegrate but bodies don't?

6. There was alot of debris attached to manifest names

I'm sure if they could plant plane debris they could plant all this, including bodies.

Just thinking out loud. I am not promoting my answers as fact. Just speculation. Just so people don't accusse me of hoaxing.

Originally posted by esdad71
Can someone please answer the questions I posted about how this would have been pulled off? This would help to prove/disprove the theory that is presented.

Ok, I'll give it a try. Just for the record, I live near Pittsburgh and have visited Shanksville several times.

1. How did they move everything there with no one noticing?

According to a resident who lived a few hundred yards from the crater, and who I spoke with at length, the FBI locked down the entire area for miles around the crash site for two full weeks. Residents were only allowed to return home if they kept inside their house at all times while at home. When the residents wanted to leave, they had to check in with the FBI first.

In addition, this resident said that the FBI brought in over 100 Pennsylvania State Police just to keep people from looking at the crash site while the FBI was doing the excavating. The state police lined the perimeter of the site so nobody could get a good view of what was going on.

Further, the crash site itself was a few yards from a little used and hidden access road. The debris which was documented was small enough to fit into one pickup truck. There is also a private landing strip within 2 miles of the crash site, a rail line not in use by CSX railroad, and a National Guard Armory within a few miles. You may be aware that CSX railroad also built and maintained a top secret government bunker not far away at the Greenbrier resort in West Virginia. Theoretically, planting evidence would have been the easiest thing in the world to do without anybody seeing what was going on.

2. How was the debris field spread since eyewitness reports state none of that including 2 pilots.

I'm not sure what your question is either. But reportedly the debris field spread 8 miles all the way to New Baltimore. This could have been caused by a shoot-down or for those inclined to a more exotic explanation, the debris could have been spread by the C-130 that flew over the area within 2 minutes of the crash.

3. How did they know the exact time of the crash?

If the crash seen was staged they would have CAUSED the time of the crash. If it was a shoot-down they would have known because they shot it down.

4. Why not allow the plane to hit the White House, this would have given the shadow government the oppurtunity to really put the citizens ver the barrel?

Maybe they wanted to make sure there was a "citizens are heroes" story to make it look like 9/11 wasn't a complete humiliation of the U.S. Plus, there would be no way to explain how a 2nd plane made it through D.C. airspace 30 minutes after the Pentagon was hit.

5. There were bodies in Shanksville.

There were no bodies according the the coroner's first impression when he arrived on the scene. In fact, the coroner stated there wasn't 1 drop of blood at the scene.

Also, I spoke with people who were first responders at the crash site of Flight 427, which crashed outside of Pittsburgh in 1994. By way of comparison, Flight 427 also crashed nose-first at high speed. The first responders said when they arrived there were body parts everywhere. Hands, legs, arms, heads, and internal organs were spread all over the place.

One thing I remember about the Flight 427 crash was that the workers at the site were only permitted to work for short periods at a time because of the concern for the psychological damage that was being caused by such a gruesome scene. Psychologists were brought in to help the workers cope with the process of picking up the hundreds of body parts.

According to the witnesses at the crash site and in the immediate area, there were no such reports of a gruesome scattering of body parts near the Flight 93 crash site. A make-shift morgue was set up off site, and the body parts were delivered there to the coroner. I'm not sure that there's ever been a public chain of custody for these human remains. I.e., they were just delivered by the FBI with the claim that the human remains came from the crash site.

I.e., almost the entire body of evidence from the crash site originates with the FBI. And even the 9/11 Commission was not permitted to directly question the FBI agents who gathered the evidence and wrote the reports. Instead, the 9/11 Commission was only given the PENTTBOM report to read.

Originally posted by shrunkensimon

I completely agree with what you've just said. Having said that, all we have in terms of real evidence for Shanksville is fragments of supposed flight 93..

Interesting pics. I hadn't seen them before. Thanks for posting them.

To me the crater looks too small for an airliner to have made it. To small and too "clean." I mean, where are the wing impacts. Shouldn't there be marks in the ground where the wings hit? Even if the plane did vapourize, there would still be wing impact, no?

Originally posted by esdad71
Yes, I have been to Shanksville, but not since 9/11. I am originally from NY and we traveled alot. We had relatives who lived within 30 minutes of the crash site. It is a small community, so how could the work go unnoticed. It would easier to build a house in Times Square then bring in a bunch of heavy machinery for no reason.

I was only answering your questions. If you are from a small community, you'd know that someone driving machinery around wouldn't really be noticed. I mean, how many times does DOT repair pot holes? It wouldn't be that hard really.

It crashed 3 miles from his house. I think this disproves the theory.

I never said I believed in this theory. I was just answering your questions.

Wow, what a firestorm I cause with this! The typical insults being hurled at me by members and even a mod insulting me and threatening to ban me over this!

I've must of hit the nail on the head about that engine being planted with the backhoe bucket!