Originally posted by Essedarius

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
It goes much deeper than just the events of that day, and much deeper than just the Twin Towers. If you knew anything about the Truth Movement, you'd know that.

I know the basic characteristics of thermite, I can tell you what day Larry Silverstein secured the lease on the WTC buildings, I've googled the name "Porter Goss", and I managed to sit through every supercharged dramatic moment of "Who Killed John O'Neill"...I'm pretty sure that means I know more about the Truth movement than 97% of the world's population.

If you want the Truth Movement to actually achieve something, then I'd hurry up and go public with those irrefutable deep dark secrets of yours. Because while I don't know much...next to the average Joe I'm Dr. David Ray freakin' Griffin.

If you can't convince me, you don't have a prayer with my dad...or his fishing buddies...and their families...and their cities...

I don't doubt that you may know more about it than 97% of the world, but if you truly know alot, rather than just knowing more than the average person, I hope that you realize that if the Twin Towers thing is ever solved, that's not the "end" of the Truth Movement. Again, that's not the only thing the Truth Movement has to work with.

They're not deep dark secrets. They're out there for everybody to look at and learn. It's just a matter of how important you consider it to be to look at all aspects of both sides with an open mind.

Does the Truth Movement have tons of PROOF? No. I'd say there's very little proof. But then again, there's very little proof with the official story. There isn't a whole lot of depth to the official story. So the deep down story of the official story, and most of the Truth Movement is just speculation. But I guess since most of the stuff surrounding 9/11 is speculation, then it's up to you, or your dad, or your friends, or the average person to use common sense and decide which speculation is more plausible.

I don't know where the Truth Movement became this evil entity that doesn't even deserve a few seconds of looking into. I've met people who have reviewed all the theories of both sides and still consider the official story the most plausible. That's fine, that's their opinion. But for those who just blow it off without ever reviewing anything, that's wrong and a mistake.

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
... that's not the only thing the Truth Movement has to work with.

A fair point...I was defining it as "The 9/11 Truth Movement."

...there's very little proof with the official story. There isn't a whole lot of depth to the official story.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Because the official story is based on the traditional actions of martyr-terrorists...their motives and tactics.

Now whether or not you BELIEVE those motives and tactics, that's another story...but when it comes to complete theories, CTs are notoriously short on providing the WHYs and the WHOs behind the WHATs.

But I do see your point, and I will concede that the official version is not devoid of speculation.

I don't know where the Truth Movement became this evil entity that doesn't even deserve a few seconds of looking into.

I think it happened when someone coined the term "sheeple" and claimed that people who "buy into" the official story are ignorant slaves to the government. Then, of course, someone responded that all conspiracy theorists are lunatic tin-hat extremists...

That's when a research project became an intelligence contest.

But for those who just blow it off without ever reviewing anything, that's wrong and a mistake.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Originally posted by Essedarius

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
...there's very little proof with the official story. There isn't a whole lot of depth to the official story.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Because the official story is based on the traditional actions of martyr-terrorists...their motives and tactics.

Now whether or not you BELIEVE those motives and tactics, that's another story...but when it comes to complete theories, CTs are notoriously short on providing the WHYs and the WHOs behind the WHATs.

But I do see your point, and I will concede that the official version is not devoid of speculation.

Yes, the official story is based off of those traditional actions. Whether they wanted to, and whether they could are two different stories. But I guess that just goes back to how each individual person views the 9/11 attacks.

I agree that most conspiracy theorists suggest something, and don't answer the tough questions. But not every person in the Truth Movement is like that. For example, the mini nukes and holographic plane theories. The people that suggest it can't answer the simple question of why that's even necessary.

However, both sides have those people. There are people who haven't really researched either side that have the default belief that Al Qaeda carried out the attacks, and they insist the same general things over and over without answering the tough questions. It's just a sign of lack of education on the subject for both sides.

Originally posted by Essedarius

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
I don't know where the Truth Movement became this evil entity that doesn't even deserve a few seconds of looking into.

I think it happened when someone coined the term "sheeple" and claimed that people who "buy into" the official story are ignorant slaves to the government. Then, of course, someone responded that all conspiracy theorists are lunatic tin-hat extremists...

That's when a research project became an intelligence contest.

Fair enough

Unfortunately, that's what it's turned into is a name calling and pissing contest. It's sad because I've had co-operative research projects on individual theories with a few people from the Truth Movement debating and discussing in a civil manner with people who believe the official story, and alot was accomplished in debunking or proving the theory, and in the end, everybody was more educated on that particular aspect of 9/11. Nothing gets accomplished when there's name calling and people on both sides not willing to hold co-operative discussions and research with the 'other side'.

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
Fact-The North and South Tower did not fall in "8-10 seconds" as always reported. It was more like 18-20 seconds.

Fact - The government sources are where those numbers come from.

Originally posted by Essedarius
2)
The Truth Movement is one legitimate, repeatable laboratory simulation of the WTC collapses away from being dead and buried…and I mean GONE FOREVER. If someone proves that the collapse was possible…it’s over. No other arguments have the load-bearing capacity to prop up the Movement.

Funny how you say legitimate, repeatable laboratory simulation. Since the Cardington tests and NIST themselves couldn't do it, I guess we'll have to wait. Not to mention their non-reproducable computer models.

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
Fact-The North and South Tower did not fall in "8-10 seconds" as always reported. It was more like 18-20 seconds.

Fact - The government sources are where those numbers come from.

Source?

Before you even provide the source, I'll take a wild shot at what source you'll be quoting. It's going to be the NIST report which states "NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2." - right?

It probably is, because everybody that supports the "8-10 second collapse" theory quotes it.

See, I'm part of the 9/11 Truth Movement. I believe our government was solely responsible for the attacks. But that doesn't mean I'm going to believe every single theory that's thrown out there. Neither should anybody else.

If you'll read what I quoted, which is most likely what you were going to quote, it says "the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated". The 11 and 9 second times are for the debris falling, which indeed was free fall speed. However, the actual COLLAPSE time is 18-20 seconds. That is how long it took for the entire tower to go from standing to a pile of rubble. That is not free fall speed.

I agree with most that the 18-20 seconds is pretty quick for such a tall building, and it looks strange. But twisting words and creating alternative meanings for them doesn't make the theory any more true, nor does it help our cause.

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
I agree with most that the 18-20 seconds is pretty quick for such a tall building, and it looks strange. But twisting words and creating alternative meanings for them doesn't make the theory any more true, nor does it help our cause.

I agree. I was just pointing out that the erroneous times are quoted from NIST. So, we really can't say anything if a truther uses those numbers other than to show them they are mistaken.

But, if we are going to time the collapse of everything. They actually collapsed in about 1 hour and 1.5 hours, since things were falling off the building and floor trusses were suppossedly collapsing.

See what I mean about the times?

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
I agree with most that the 18-20 seconds is pretty quick for such a tall building, and it looks strange. But twisting words and creating alternative meanings for them doesn't make the theory any more true, nor does it help our cause.

I agree. I was just pointing out that the erroneous times are quoted from NIST. So, we really can't say anything if a truther uses those numbers other than to show them they are mistaken.

But, if we are going to time the collapse of everything. They actually collapsed in about 1 hour and 1.5 hours, since things were falling off the building and floor trusses were suppossedly collapsing.

See what I mean about the times?

I see what you mean. But the 18-20 seconds is the true 'noticeable' collapse. That can easily be seen in videos, except to people who want to see it as 8-10 seconds.

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi

I see what you mean. But the 18-20 seconds is the true 'noticeable' collapse. That can easily be seen in videos, except to people who want to see it as 8-10 seconds.

I agree with you. I didn't mean to start an argument but was just pointing that out. Take care.

The Lone Gunmen Pilot Episode

Fact: On March 4th, 2001, The television show The Lone Gunmen portrayed "elements" of the government running a false flag terror attack on the World Trade Center by crashing remote controlled commercial airlines into the buildings.

Coincidence??

While this may not be a fact about the incident, deniers will certainly become flustered conjuring up other coincidences, none of which will be as specific as The Lone Gunmen Pilot Episode

Black magicians will always advertise their evil

[edit on 13-6-2007 by Amelie]

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
HELLO?? the OP states "facts" ... did anyone bother to read the first one?

His first sentence states "ALLEGED".

[edit on 123030p://5019 by CaptainObvious]

But it is a fact that Indian intelligence believe this. Do you know more than them? If so please share. Him meeting with officials on 911 is just interesting, doesn't prove anything tho.

Come on people, where are the links? I don't want theories about how the building may have fallen. Facts which can be proven through legitimate links.

All of the thermate/micronukes/CGI fakery whilst interesting are all just unproven theories. They don't help the situation at all, they just distract from real provable things.

Originally posted by Krahzeef_Ukhar
Come on people, where are the links? I don't want theories about how the building may have fallen. Facts which can be proven through legitimate links.

How about real strutural calculations? Is that good? Check out my posts because I've done enough here. Thanks and take care.

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
Fact: 4 Israeli 'art students' were arrested filming the attacks and celebrating before being released after 60 days of high level negotiation between high ranking officials in the respective governments. Also Israeli intelligence had tabs on some of the hijackers and were aware of at least some proportion of the attack.

Yeah, that's a hard one to rationalize for all the deniers. But I rarely ever see them want to investigate this matter. It's an Undeniable fact.

and to add another FACT: The Security tapes around of the pentagon were seized.

[edit on 13-6-2007 by Amelie]

Fact - people in this thread aren't backing up their "facts"
What? Are we just supposed to take your word for it? Don't think so.
Undeniable facts should come with 100% authentic/credible sources.

Come on people!