To all the atheist,

Originally posted by mnmcandiez
I'm not an atheist, but the bible shouldn't be taken literally, it has been changed over the years in translations and it was written when cultures were a lot different.

i actually want to state that, for the record, i think the bible is a fairly decent book if read properly. sure, i'll look at it in the same way i look at other mythical tales... but it still has its points.

it's very true that it shouldn't be taken literally, it never was meant to be taken literally

Also, revelation is nothing but a big puzzle.

indeed, a big allegorical and methaphorical puzzle.

Just because the Book of Revelation is a puzzle to some people doesn’t mean it won’t come true. I have to say I’m shocked at people who say that they still won’t believe in God if they see these things come to pass. I personally cannot see how anyone who even remotely knows the words to this verse and see it comes to pass and don’t believe in it 2000+ years after it’s written. Wow, is what I have to say.

Originally posted by Shar
Just because the Book of Revelation is a puzzle to some people doesn’t mean it won’t come true.

no, the fact that it's clearly an allegorical work is why it's not going to come true. it's a book written about the events that were happening back then... not about the events that are going to happen. the book is clearly not prophetic at all. you'd clearly expect anything that's dealing with a prophecy taking place in modern or future times to at least include some sort of ignorant description of modern technology.

I have to say I’m shocked at people who say that they still won’t believe in God if they see these things come to pass.

and i'm shocked that you'd immediately claim a specific cause to the events happening before you fully investigated the matter

I personally cannot see how anyone who even remotely knows the words to this verse and see it comes to pass and don’t believe in it 2000+ years after it’s written.

well, first off it's more like 1900+ years
secondly: it's been around for 1900+ years, people have had time to read it and could easily turn it into a self-fulfilling prophecy. it could just be the acts of people attempting to fulfill it for their own faith purposes

This is directed to athiests

There was a mass a couple years ago in the US where during the ritual, the eucharist bleeded. It was all caught on camera. I suggest you go look it up, I think it happened in Missouri.

Short answer, nothing.


The bible has been translated, retranslated, edited, censored, and added to so much over
the millenia that it is, even in a religious context, the word of man.


I see no point for a deity to exist, and I understand why people created the idea in
the first place, so I am not going to believe in it.

Originally posted by iori_komei

The bible has been translated, retranslated, edited, censored, and added to so much over
the millenia that it is, even in a religious context, the word of man.

Let me see, if I’m not mistaken the dead sea scrolls which date back well over 2000 years ago also says what the Bible says. So (KJV) has not been changed that much anyways.

Originally posted by Shar

Originally posted by iori_komei

The bible has been translated, retranslated, edited, censored, and added to so much over
the millenia that it is, even in a religious context, the word of man.

Let me see, if I’m not mistaken the dead sea scrolls which date back well over 2000 years ago also says what the Bible says. So (KJV) has not been changed that much anyways.

Where in the DSS does it mention jesus or anything that jesus was supposed to have done?

SO half the KJV can't be 'verified' by the DSS

And also the DSS cant be used to verify anything in the OT, only that certain stories in the bible are textually the same as the stories in the DSS, so means nothing in the scheme of things

G

Where in the DSS does it mention jesus or anything that jesus was supposed to have done?

SO half the KJV can't be 'verified' by the DSS

And also the DSS cant be used to verify anything in the OT, only that certain stories in the bible are textually the same as the stories in the DSS, so means nothing in the scheme of things

It means everything. It's more proof of the Bible. More than one reference to things. Oh according to the NT Jesus' bones were not broken which by the way was prophesied in the OT. As well as his birth and how he would come. As well as the book of revelation just about everything in it, is in the OT. Like in the Book of Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah and more.


[edit on 13-6-2007 by Shar]

Originally posted by Shar

It means everything. It's more proof of the Bible. More than one reference to things. Oh according to the NT Jesus' bones were not broken which by the way was prophesied in the OT. As well as his birth and how he would come. As well as the book of revelation just about everything in it, is in the OT. Like in the Book of Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah and more.


[edit on 13-6-2007 by Shar]

Eh? Its only proof that the same stories in the OT were copied in the DSS. As for the prophecies - there is no evidence that these 'prophecies' pertain to jesus only by christians conviction are these said to be about jesus.


G

Eh? Its only proof that the same stories in the OT were copied in the DSS. As for the prophecies - there is no evidence that these 'prophecies' pertain to jesus only by christians conviction are these said to be about jesus.

Wrong. This is just your opinion. However, you sure have gotten off the subject. Try and stay on the topic. Which is if you saw Rev. happen before your eyes would it change your opinion. That's it. That's all this thread is about. Nothing else.

[edit on 13-6-2007 by Shar]

If any of that stuff happened then i would question what i believe. But it isn't going to happen in my opinion and if it does and im judged by God to be a heretic then so be it i will not bow down to something i do not believe in, something i believe has casued more harm than good.

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
If any of that stuff happened then i would question what i believe. But it isn't going to happen in my opinion and if it does and im judged by God to be a heretic then so be it i will not bow down to something i do not believe in, something i believe has casued more harm than good.

Peruvianmonk


Thanks for your honest opinion. That’s more than I can say for a lot of other posters who totally ignore the question or change it to suit them.

Your welcome Mr Shah, furthermore i would fight anything like this that was happening, if people i loved around me were dying because they didn't believe in god, for me that is no god to believe in.

I'm sorry you're disappointed, Shar, but I gave you an honest answer -- I don't believe that stuff, don't believe it will ever happen, so in my own opinion, I can't answer the question. It would be like asking me if I was told I could swim under the sea at depth with no equipment, would I like to?

It's impossible, so I can't answer that question.

I know too much about the history of your bible to be able to even pretend the book of Revelations was prophecy and meant to happen, sorry.

Originally posted by Shar

Eh? Its only proof that the same stories in the OT were copied in the DSS. As for the prophecies - there is no evidence that these 'prophecies' pertain to jesus only by christians conviction are these said to be about jesus.

Wrong. This is just your opinion. However, you sure have gotten off the subject. Try and stay on the topic. Which is if you saw Rev. happen before your eyes would it change your opinion. That's it. That's all this thread is about. Nothing else.

[edit on 13-6-2007 by Shar]

You started with the DSS - also its just your opinion the prohecies were about jesus.

On topic - Definately would change my opinion but the chances of that actually happening are nil. You couldnt also say for sure who or what was causing it
Look dont get me wrong if there was suitable evidence for god I would have no problem in believing, still wouldnt worship it though.

So what difference does imagining if Rev. were to happen? - that still doesn't change my mind at this moment. A hypothical question of this sort really does nothing to change how people feel and think about religion.

Its like me saying "Would you believe in beer elves if a tribe of them crashed one of your parties and drank all your beer"?

You started with the DSS - also its just your opinion the prohecies were about jesus.

True I was answering someone above me.

On topic - Definately would change my opinion

thats nice to hear.

Originally posted by Shar
Let me see, if I’m not mistaken the dead sea scrolls which date back well over 2000 years ago also says what the Bible says. So (KJV) has not been changed that much anyways.

the dead sea scrolls don't contain ANYTHING from the new testament. read the book "misquoting jesus"
it'll give some insight into how, over the centuries, the bible got warped and mistranslated. especially the KJV, it's a bit off in some places, but that's a topic for another thread.

edit to add: oh, and the prophecy angle... all that proves is that whoever was writing the gospels in 70+ CE was really good at working in elements from earlier prophecies into his story about this fictional character named jesus

[edit on 6/13/07 by madnessinmysoul]

I don't want to sound rude but I will reply frankly.

Can you provide an EXACT translation of the very first draft of that passage? One that has not been translated umpteen times and modified to reflect the views of whatever period it was translated in?

I do not believe in your god. To me, he has no more substance than Winnie the Pooh, or Tarzan. He is a character in a story, except his story is taken as, quite literally, gospel truth.

If the Heavens rumbled, the mountains quaked, the skies sang and a chorus of angels descended form Heaven preaching about how lovely god really is, I'd probably still not believe.
I am man of science, but still of faith. I believe something created everything, but that something was not intelligent and had no intention of creating everything.
One of the arguments I have problems with is the question of where everything comes from. Atheists argue for the Big Bang, while religious followers say it had to be created because something cannot come from nothing. If that's true, and by your own logic, something had to make God too. Yet when you say that their response is usually "Its different with God. He doesn't conform to our laws."
It just doesn't fly.

Originally posted by JackofBlades

Can you provide an EXACT translation of the very first draft of that passage? One that has not been translated umpteen times and modified to reflect the views of whatever period it was translated in?

The Wycliffe Bible was translated from the original text into an English language. King James Version (KJV) the one I use came after it. Also, in English language . These next verses came from the Wycliffe Version. The earliest English language Bible there is. Hope this helps you.

Wycliffe Version Revelation 11

3 And I shall give to my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand days two hundred and sixty, and they shall be clothed with sackcloths.


4 These be two olives, and two candlesticks, and they stand in the sight of the Lord of the earth standing in the sight of the Lord of the earth.

5 And if any man will harm them, fire shall go out of the mouth of them, and shall devour their enemies. And if any man will hurt them, thus it behooveth him to be slain.

6 These have power to close heaven These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy; and they have power on upon waters, to turn them into blood; and to smite the earth with every plague and to smite the earth with all plague, either vengeance, and as oft as they will.

7 And when they shall end their witnessing, the beast that ascendeth up from deepness the beast that ascendeth up of the deepness, shall make battle against them, and shall overcome them, and shall slay them and slay them.

8 And the bodies of them shall lie in the streets of the great city, that is called ghostly Sodom, and Egypt, where the Lord of them was crucified.

9 And some of the lineages, and of peoples, and of languages and tongues, and of heathen men, shall see the bodies of them by three days and an half; and they shall not suffer the bodies of them to be put in burials.

10 And men inhabiting the earth shall have joy on upon them; and they shall make merry, and shall send gifts together, for these two prophets tormented them that dwell on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half, the Spirit of life of God entered into them; and they stood on their feet, and great dread fell on them that saw them and they stood upon their feet, and great dread fell upon them that saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven, saying to them, Come up hither. And they ascended up into heaven in a cloud, and the enemies of them saw them.

13 And in that hour a great earth-moving was made, and the tenth part of the city fell down and the tenth part of the city fell; and the names of men seven thousand were slain in the earth-moving and there be slain in the earth-moving the names of men seven thousand; and the others were sent into dread, and gave glory to God of heaven.

Don't see any difference here.


Wycliffe

which original text of revelations was it translated from? last i checked we didn't have the complete original manuscript of that book