I posted this in a reply elsewhere on ATS but i thought it needed a thread of its own.

Ive seen a few posts now on ATS that show pictures and videos of Ufos from the 40s and 50s all the way up to now, but the skeptics always seem to say when presented with a low resolution picture that it is a hoax because of the low picture or video quality, now if they are presented with a high resolution picture or a video they say its CG!! so my point is how can anyone prove the existence of ufo's via any digital media outlet eg. pictures, video, sound clips when the skeptics are being a bit too skeptic.

I think what is required for these people is a ufo on their front garden waving a white flag! :-)

So how do we prove it?

For me the most convincing pictures of ufo's are from the 40's & 50's because back then CGI was not heard of and to hoax a high flying Ufo would of been hard to accomplish back then. Although alot of the sightings can be put down to the Nazi and American black project attempts at flying discs. Which can be viewed at Disclose Tv at great length.

Thanks

Originally posted by sostyles
so my point is how can anyone prove the existence of ufo's via any digital media outlet eg. pictures, video, sound clips when the skeptics are being a bit too skeptic.
:

My opinion? Multiple witnesses with multiple cameras from multiple angles will be definitive evidence of "something".

Of course photos and video are not physical objects....

That is where the skeptic will turn to next.

[edit on 10-6-2007 by Dulcimer]

As far as I know there isnt one picture on the planet earth that proves anything.
And you are right I need to see them on my front lawn waving a white flag to know for sure. I want to believe.
I cant wait for the picture that cant be disputed instead of far away fuzzy out of focus camera shaking pinpoints of light.

Show me the money !

Originally posted by sostyles
So how do we prove it?

Just a quick point first. Skepticism is good. It's the only reasonable way to approach questionable evidence. Your alternative to being a skeptic is to be a sucker.

That said, photos and videos can't be taken as absolute proof of anything, because they can be faked. People have been faking ghost photos for over a century and a half. The only way a photo or video can be used as a good bit of evidence is if:

1) We know exactly who took the photo, when and where. If it was taken by Mr. Anonymous, into the trash it goes, no matter how good it looks.

2) There is more than one photo or video, taken by different people of the same thing from different locations. Makes it a thousand times more difficult to fake.

3) If there is some other kinds of evidence associated with the photos. A good, solid flying saucer with aliens would be best.

4) Confirmation and agreement by neutral experts saying that the photos are for real, along with the identities of the people, and the aliens, if available.

That's not too much to ask for is it? Any hoax would be flushed out by providing this additional information. And it's no more than you'd ask of any odd thing. It's the same kind of thing you'd ask for if I said a cow fell through the roof of my kitchen. My name. Different photos by different people. Police officers commenting. Stuff like that. Why would you accept LESS evidence for alien UFOs, which are something even more extraordinary than a cow landing in my kitchen? Think about it.

[edit on 10-6-2007 by SuicideVirus]

Originally posted by SuicideVirus

Your alternative to being a skeptic is to be a sucker.

Spot on !

As far as proof, I've seen quite a few pics and vids that can't readily be
explained.

Are these UFO's ? You bet.

Are they alien ? Whole different ballpark, brother.

For proof of aliens, none (to my knowledge) has ever been presented.

And, like Earth2 said, I'd need to see them in my yard, to truly
believe.

Regards,
Lex

There's a saying
"Garbage in, Garbage out"

If you record garbage, then its only worth garbage, now the rules on this are becoming flexible with news shows taking cell phone video from accidents and so on, but thats just sugar on a a good story.

A photo will never do, it never tells the whole story, it only tells you the story you want to see, same with alot of video.

Skeptics don't say everything is fake, we say well look over there in the distance at that airport with a crowd watching an air show, hmm could that be a plane doing stunts?
Could it be this that whatever?
Just because its not something doesn't it prove its something else.

The images from the 60's and the like could have
been doctored just like todays. I've worked with
images for years and at times we've used hard-copy
photos and found alterations and sometimes, the guy
who'd done it would actually be working along side us!

I hate to say this, but it seems more and more like a
business that exploits the lost and confused.
I say that with no disrespect to all on this site, we all
want to see a Ufo landing on the White House lawn,
but more and more old info is dredged and re-ashed
and any genuine information seems to be thrown in
the 'doubtful' bin with the rest.

Maybe photographs and video material isn't good enough
these days... but lawks!! what's next?

I think the best way to go about finding "the truth" for oneself is to stop looking for "proof" (scientific), because I think that is a very long way off and too elusive at present. I doubt anyone any time soon will come forward with something that everyone will accept as "proof." For some of us, the truth is already evident and theres nothing left to prove, and only things to validate. For others, nothing short of hardcore scientific proof will be enough, an alien body on a table, etc... which is so unlikely to happen it might as well be fantasy, as some 'skeptics' like to think.



...as far as the public domain is concerned.

There are indeed some cases where even the hardest skeptic will say that there was something which one cannot explain. E.g the O`Hare event. Note that I'm not talking about the close minded people or stupids but any rational sane person.

As to what should be taken as proof, take anything that a judge will take as a proof before he hangs a convict of murder. He sure won't hang anyone basing his judgment on a photo from a nameless source found on internet, or a very dark, blurry and shaky video on youtube....would he?

He won't even think of taking a pic of unknown origin from 50s or 60s as evidence. There is no way to trace that out. The problem is people (like OP) don't differentiate between an evidence and a clue. A pic is merely a clue which can lead to evidence. Watch more detective movies if you must !

Clues on ufo's are interesting sometimes, but don't confuse them with evidence. What matters is whether you can find some evidence out of it and how solid is that evidence. Most of the time one evidence is not enough.

I can go on and on about what can be taken seriously, you can find a summary of my recommendations in the link in my signature below.

A pic is merely a clue which can lead to evidence. Watch more detective movies if you must !

Clues on ufo's are interesting sometimes, but don't confuse them with evidence. What matters is whether you can find some evidence out of it and how solid is that evidence. Most of the time one evidence is not enough.

How about the chad C2c drones there were multiple pictures of this craft in a few locations, yet most ppl here at ATS claim undoubtably that it is a hoax yet above you stated that if you had more than one picture of the event it would be more believable but how come we dont beleive the chad drone stories & Pics

Thanks for your replies!

[edit on 11-6-2007 by sostyles]

I totally agree with the OP.

No matter what pictures, films we see of UFO people have an unconditional reaction to say, FAKE.

This is because they saw so many pictures and films that they got used to them and in thier mind they are all fake and it does not matter if one is real since the general opinion will be, "heh this is another fake". Even if the picture is perfect, they will still not accept it as real.

Even when we saw that movie with an alleged alien from Area 51, almost all think it is fake, there is really no proof to sugest that it is fake, did anyone say he made that thing up? You have no proof to say it is fake. The same goes with many pictures, instead of proving it is genuine prove it is fake.

I honestly believe that over 50% of UFOs are real, and since we do not know how a UFO acts, behaves in certain conditions, you can't say that if an UFO has a strange light or shadow to it, it is fake, since you do not know how that UFO might work and play with light.

Many say we just need one proof to make this UFO thing a fact. I believe we have seen hundreds if not thousands of proofs, but none are good enough since if it was to be good enough it would be real and if it is real the consequences of accepting that we are not alone in this world is so hard to accept for some that it does not matter how good that picture is because for that person it will never be enough.

UFOs and aliens are here and have been here since ages ago. Thinking there are no aliens in the Universe is like thinking Earth is flat but you have to be in the year 1000.

IMO even if there was no UFO sighting, I would still believe in aliens and UFOs since it is impossible for us to be the only inteligence in the Universe, and there is proof to sugest there are more Universes in this world.

95% of the people living on Earth forget they live on a planet in a solar system. All they know and think about is that limited space where they live in and call home. Nothing more. If they were to travel all around the world I am certain they will change their view of the world, and then they will think that this is just a planet, then they will start to understand that we are just one small dot in an infinite sea.

Also all the people who believe in God are not alone, so we are not alone. We are being watched all the time. If you wish you could call God an alien and there you go, we are not alone and He has visited us in the past and He will come again in the future.

Think, if God were to come on Earth, would He be the final proof you need to say: We are not alone, and believe it?

As for me, I do not need any proof to make me believe in aliens, IMO they are here and have been here since ages ago. And the word alien can take so many forms, even God. All I can wish is that sometime in the future people will start to understand this world better and have a more holistic view of their world and in the end we might become a peaceful and respected world in the Universe.

As long as we live to fight one another we are not ready to accept that there are other worlds in this world and that there are other "creatures" which live there. As long as we kill jews, black people, etc. because they have a different culture or skin we will never be ready to accept a "Grey".

I can understand very well when some aliens said to us that we are at a "baby" stage as far as civilization is concerned. We do not deserve to know more since we can't accept and understand more. When we will be ready to accept new things, they will give us knowledge and information.

Since then, live your life and have an open mind, even in this world open minds find answers. But there is a long and hard road to get to that information, if you start by saying "We are the the most inteligent race in the Universe" well, being so selfish will never let you find any answers since your EGO will always win.

Peace, Pericle

Originally posted by sostyles
How about the chad C2c drones there were multiple pictures of this craft in a few locations, yet most ppl here at ATS claim undoubtably that it is a hoax yet above you stated that if you had more than one picture of the event it would be more believable but how come we dont beleive the chad drone stories & Pics

It has other major problems, like
-anonymous people,
-no exif data in the pics,
-secrecy about the exact places where it was seen,
-no news coverage
-no reporting to authorities/police etc
-incorrect proportions in various pics
-and the biggest give away was the writing on the drone, which is senseless, but is obviously not alien/ET.

Multiple and sharp pics and multiple sightings are positive points, but these are overwhelmed by the negative points. Note that no one has PROVED that C2C drone is a fake, there are only opinions.

And no one will be able to prove it either as a fake or a real, this is my guess. Main reason being - people are not interested in spending their time and money in such matters. No one is going to do a complete formal investigation on C2C drone. Those who are interested have other intentions and agendas, like selling a book or a DVD.

[edit on 11/6/2007 by rocksolidbrain]

Originally posted by sostyles
How about the chad C2c drones there were multiple pictures of this craft in a few locations, yet most ppl here at ATS claim undoubtably that it is a hoax yet above you stated that if you had more than one picture of the event it would be more believable but how come we dont beleive the chad drone stories & Pics

Multiple pictures by themselves don't cut it. Multiple pictures taken by different people from different angles is much more convincing and yields a great deal more information.

On of the worst features of the chad drones is that the photographers will not come forward with additional information. We have some promises, but it's been weeks and nothing is forthcoming. The information that ought to be in the pictures themselves is also missing. That last is a very bad sign, indeed. The information is not accidentally missing; it's normally embedded with the photos on any digital camera. In other words, the data is intentionally missing.

What's an example of a GOOD sighting?

The Phoenix Lights. Multiple witnesses, multiple photographs from different people in different places. Reported to authorities. Witnesses, including a governor, willing to give their names and discuss what they saw. There are a few people calling fake on Phoenix, but not many. The air force has attempted to debunk it, but not successfully. By and large the Phoenix Lights is one of the best sightings in recent history.

Unfortunately, the UFO phenomenon has a large percentage of fakery associated with it. People have been caught time and again faking it. Whether this is an intentional disinformation campaign to discredit the field I do not know, but the fakes are everywhere. the Santilli autopsy film. Wasn't THAT spectacular! But it is an admitted fake. We had a fellow on here a week or so ago who told this story about being a prisoner on a work gang digging ditches. He came across some sort of underground tube that had strange characteristics. He was thrown into solitary confinement and interrogated. The story grew and grew and people here on ATS were very good with him. About half way through he suddenly says, "It's fake." He wanted to see if he could string us along. This happens alll the time.

Skeptics are not your enemy. Consider them the canary in the coal mine trying to alert you to a lack of oxygen.

Originally posted by Pericle
Even when we saw that movie with an alleged alien from Area 51, almost all think it is fake, there is really no proof to sugest that it is fake, did anyone say he made that thing up? You have no proof to say it is fake. The same goes with many pictures, instead of proving it is genuine prove it is fake.

The number one thing that damns the "Alien Interview" video is its lack of provenance. Where did it come from? Who took it? Knowing where it came from is the number one quickest way to determine whether or not it's authentic. In fact, it doesn't matter if it's real or not if we don't know where it came from. It may be real. But unless we know where it came from, it's a useless piece of only possible evidence.

IMO even if there was no UFO sighting, I would still believe in aliens and UFOs since it is impossible for us to be the only inteligence in the Universe, and there is proof to sugest there are more Universes in this world.

That's a nice thought, but believing in something doesn't necessarily make it true. That's what evidence and proof are all about. At this point, there is no proof that life exists or has existed anywhere but Earth.

Since then, live your life and have an open mind, even in this world open minds find answers. But there is a long and hard road to get to that information, if you start by saying "We are the the most inteligent race in the Universe" well, being so selfish will never let you find any answers since your EGO will always win.

Nobody's stopping you from equating what you believe in with the truth, for your own personal way of looking at things. But if we want to reach a consensus about the truth, then just believing in something isn't going to cut it. We want to gather the available evidence, study it, eliminate as many other possibilities as we can, and see if we can come to some kind of an agreement about these UFO things. We're not being hard-headed about it because we're afraid of the truth, but rather because we're afraid of believing something that isn't true, in which case we're not really using our intelligence as should.

I personally think it takes more courage to look at a piece of evidence that points to something we would really like to be true and honestly recognize where it falls short. It really sucks when a good video or sighting report turns out to be fake. It hurts when your dreams and desires fail the test of proof.

It's worth it, though. Because the hope is that one day some piece of evidence will show up that doesn't fail even the highest level of proof we can throw at it. So that instead of having to believe something, we can know it to be true.

so my point is how can anyone prove the existence of ufo's via any digital media outlet eg. pictures, video, sound clips when the skeptics are being a bit too skeptic.

Nobody is doubting the existence of UFOs. Unidentified Flying Objects are a fact. Thing to prove is that they are spaceships of ET origin. No video or photo is going to PROVE this. And I'm a supporter!

I think what is required for these people is a ufo on their front garden waving a white flag! :-)

That would certainly work. Though physical evidence proved to not be of terrestrial origin would do it. Otherwise, all we have is evidence.

So how do we prove it?

Like "proving" anything else. We present excellent corraborated evidence.

For me the most convincing pictures of ufo's are from the 40's & 50's because back then CGI was not heard of and to hoax a high flying Ufo would of been hard to accomplish back then.

Not at all. Throw a hubcap up in the air a few times using a fast shutter speed. Eventually, one or more will be good UFO shots. That's just ONE example of many. Look at the Adamski hoaxed photos.

The most convincing photos are time sequenced, and backed up by multiple observers, especially if they are from different viewpoints. For example, had it not been for the flare explanation (which is quite solid, despite what our wishes may be) for the 10pm Phoenix Lights event, that sighting would be a classic case of good evidence. Multiple witnesses, numerous video tapes from multiple angles, etc. As cell cameras get more sophisticated, I can't wait to see what happens.....

Although alot of the sightings can be put down to the Nazi and American black project attempts at flying discs. Which can be viewed at Disclose Tv at great length.

Nazi black projects? Please... Remember, the Soviets and Americans pretty much captured the German scientists, or they defected during the war. Such projects would be fairly common knowledge now, and would be low tech these days... Horten discs, VRIL, Hannabaut, you name it...no working prototypes were recovered of anything beyond 1940's tech. There were sketches, sure, but I too have sketches of dream craft (complete with tech specs) I designed in high school, so that proves nothing. American attempts at discs pretty much all ended in failure and certainly never approached the maneuvers witnessed of "foo fighters" during the war.