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Originally posted by Darkpr0
By some feat of chance, things have changed just a tad in the 60+ years since WWII. With things like the Raptor, the Rafale, and Eurofighter going on at the moment you no longer get to see where your opponent is, and how much metal is flying through the air at you. With the Raptor's latest tests as evidence, you get a missile warning. Just a missile warning. No convenient dots on the horizon representing aircraft coming to kill you. This is the idea of BVR combat.
We've seen how well F-15s and F-16s in Red Flag were capable of blasting F-22s out of the air when they knew something was coming, let alone when they didn't.
Do you think a Su-27 that has no idea what is coming is likely to be able to properly locate, track, and fire upon a Raptor?
The obvious answer is: possibly, but not likely. Even with pilots that are aces in the Su-27, the airframe itself limits its usefulness against the F-22.
It's like drag racing a GT-40 against a Model T. Even if the driver of the GT has never touched a 40, and even if the driver of the Model T has been driving it ably since it was first put out of the factory, the technology contained by the 40 gives it such a disproportionate advantage that the older piece's chances of winning are diminished significantly.
Now while this is a bit of exaggeration, we have to recognize that if the advantages the Raptor currently has (as well as other aircraft used by countries that do have the capability to wage war on Russia) put the Russians at a nasty disadvantage until they can come up with their own counters.
So were the US to declare war on Russia with the Raptor on its side, the advantages given would put an incredibly dent in Russian forces, trained or not.
Ace pilots are very ideal to have, I'm not trying to convince you that they're not, I'm simply saying that getting rid of the current avionics disadvantages and producing an aircraft superior to a great deal of others is a good idea, and just takes place over training pilots in current rigs which are quickly becoming out of date.
Originally posted by BlackWidow23
Why is it that whenever someone talks about how to beat an F-22 they always include ground radars and SAMS?
Why are the Raptors always the first aircraft in no matter what? I can tell you something that a lot of people JUST DONT GET! THE F-22 is an AIR SUPERIORITY FIGHTER. IT IS MEANT TO KILL AIRCRAFT.
I think that it is UNBELIEVABLY unfair to talk about how to beat an F-22 and use ground radars in an argument. That is a whole other universe.
1. We dont even know the top speed of the Raptor, we can only speculate within probably .5mach. So "superior speed" is not a fair argument either, due to the fact that both aircraft's speeds are - and for 50 years will be - completely classified.
Now that were being speculative and including ground radars and other such not-air-to-air things:
2. Why is it that whenever people talk about America vs Russia, they always assume its America attempting to invade Russia and gain air-superiority over the Russian landmass?
It would probably be in europe, and getting Russia's roxorz air defense to cover europe is an incredibly difficult task.
3. Even if Russia managed to move its air defense, keeping its aircraft under the SAM-UMBRELLA would be CRIPPLING to its air force. Syria tried that a while back....it didnt work out too well.
5. Why is it that everyone thinks that there will some how magically be a radar umbrella right below a stealth aircraft? While newer radars may be able to detect and track a stealth aircraft over a cluster of radars maybe hundreds, tracking one on the edge of a SAM umbrella is much harder.
What kind of stupid commander would fly an air-superiority mission there? Its suicide. And it wont happen. You JUST...DONT FLY FIGHTERS ABOVE A CLUSTER OF GOOD AIR DEFENSES!!
it doesnt happen unless the air force commander is smoking SOMETHING wierd. Thats a great way to loose half a billion dollars in one sortie.
6. So now that were giving Russia the advantage of hundreds of ground radars that just pop up under US fighters, I think I'll throw in some PATRIOT systems. So now the F-22s have some ground radars on their side, coupled with their own far superior radar to the one in the Su-27.
7. Excersises are very accurate. First of all, the F-15 is similar to the Su-27 in overall performance.
The pilots also have ten times the flight hours of Su pilots,
more often, they have better simulators,
more resitance to G-forces...in my opinion,
if the F-15s with 1,000 hour pilots cant touch the F-22
the Su-27s with 50 hour pilots dont have a chance in hell, even with hundreds of invisible ground radars that can track stealth aircraft.
8. If America tries to get air superiority over the russian homeland they will have a hard time. If Russia tries to get air superiority over America they will have a hard time. If the two air forces meet over common battleground such as europe, they RuAF IS going to lose.
America has numbers and quality.
The F-15s are a check for basically anything Russia can dish out save for the Su-35s of which Russia has a ground total of 11.
9. The F-22 has LPI radar...its designed specifically so the enemy WONT get a radar warning.
Yes the F-4 had the advantage, but thats because U.S. Airforce had Numbers, over the Vietnamies, the U.S. Pilot's training is not better than the Russians, look at the Korean war, U.S. claimed to have shot down, 10:1 MiG-15's VVS said it was 335 VVS MiG-15 and 235 Chinese/Korean MiG-15's downed to 1806+ F-80/84/86's and B-29's, then in 1977 U.S. in the Aviation Encyclopedia U.S. claimed 2000 MiG's downed in Korean war, after the Cold war, U.S.A. was force to addmit only 345 MiG's were lost, which means U.S.A. does tell MAJOR LIES, not just little ones, in order to "LOOK" better www.aeronautics.ru...
Originally posted by BlackWidow23
Valid points however:
Well SEAD/DEAD aircraft dont strike deep into the heart of defenses, they start at the edge and work their way in, blowing things up as they go. Fighter escort would come along without having to cross into extremely dangerous airspace.
While russian aircraft might be able to outrun the F-22, they cant outrun an AMRAAM, with the increased range of the AIM-120D, the AMRAAM would be fired before the hostile aircraft were in firing range of the attack aircraft, and they could keep going, fire, get blown up and hope their missiles find their targets, or they can turn back before the AMRAAMs get to them.
I do not believe for a second that RuAF would triumph against USAF in neutral skies. It is in fact America that has more advantages, such as a fleet of AWACS and tanker support aircraft.
What help are G-forces in BVR? How about evading missiles? Although these missiles can usually pull over 12G, USAF pilots are trained to make a missile waste its energy, and bring it down to a level where it can be evaded at 9G, which usually involves climbing 10,000 feet, descending again, than climbing again over and over. Rocket fuel doesnt last that long and neither does momentum.
The MiG-23 is in no way a match for the F-15, in any aspect. The F-15 could take on as many MiG-23s in BVR as it has missiles. Radar, weapons, flight characteristics....MiG-23 is a helluva stretch.
Now for the F-15 vs the Su-27...hmmm lets look at the facts.
-The F-15 has a thrust/weight ratio of about 1.25:1, the Su is more like 1:1.
-The F-15 has a top speed of Mach 2.5 while the Su is about mach 2.35.
-The F-15 has a range of 3,450m, the Su-27 has a range of 2,485m
-The F-15 has an AESA radar, the Su-27 has a flash dance radar.
-The F-15 has JHMCS and the Su-27 does not.
-The F-15 has a maximum altitude or 65,000 and the Su? 60,000.
Yeah, I see how the Su-27 has better performance in all areas. OOh!! It can do teh cobra at 20 knots!!. That doesnt sh1t matter if the aircraft is limited to pulling 9.5Gs just like the F-15, and I'd like to see some idiot try a cobra at 300 knots.
Vietnam huh? Do you realize that Vietnam resulted in the catastrophic destruction of the communist air force? The F-4 had a 10:1 kill ratio over the MiGs.
So over neutral ground, you say that the RuAF will triumph because they have "too many advantages"? GIVE ME ONE. The US has more aircraft. The F-22s will probably take out four times their own numbers in enemy aircraft, the F-15s ARE a check for most anything RuAF has in BVR, AESA and AIM-120D cover that area as well as the F-22. USAF has many more AWACS. USAF has many more tankers...it doesnt even need airfields in the immediate area with KC-135s flying around WITH fighter escort.
Top that off with hundreds of F-35s flying around...what advantage does the RuAF have over USAF? The USAF has more F-16s and F-15s than RuAF has Su-27s and MiG-29s.
Even if 10 times was an exagguration, the USAF pilots DO get much more training than RuAF pilots...thats a fact.
I am also sticking firmly to my belief that RED FLAG is an accurate portrayal of an air war. Despite bluefor having an AWACS aircraft, redfor has high performance SAMS on its side and other such things. The fact that the F-15s cant get a lock on the F-22s at any range says something.
Originally posted by StellarX
In a full scale war the USAF will in my opinion simply lose in their own skies or European skies and certainly Russian skies.
Originally posted by waynos
It does not. A very small number do and how many more, if any, get it is currently the subject of debate in the USA.
Originally posted by Harlequin
waynos is right about AESA - the debate is buy more raptors or give the eagles AESA - you won`t get both.
Originally posted by Harlequin
And before you get rid of the Flanker so quickly based on arm chair general assumptions - ask the Indians what they did with Bison`s (MiG-21) against the `vaunted` eagle.
Originally posted by bdn12
stellarx, what the hell are you talking about.
First of all, if you are talking about a large war between the U.S. and China or Russia, you say the F-22 has to bomb targets on the ground to protect the troops.
Do you really think we'd have many, if any, troops in China or Russia in a massive war like that.
As of 2005, the United States occupied over 700 military bases in over 36 countries worldwide.[5] Some of the largest contingents are:
Germany 64,319
Japan (United States Forces Japan) 33,453
South Korea (United States Forces Korea) 29,086
Italy 10,449
United Kingdom 10,331
en.wikipedia.org...
If the F-22 can barely get in, how the hell do you expect a large, slow transport or ship to get soldiers on the ground.
A war like that would most likely be fought in the sea and air, not the ground like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Also, you say the F-22 isn't fast enought to catch SU-27's, Mig-31's, or even Mig-29's. That is total bull#.
The only one I can see having a chance is the Mig-31. The F-22, as stated by pilots, can at the minimum supercruise at Mach 1.8. The top speed is upwards of 1600 mph, as stated by Paul Metz, a test pilot.
Those other fighters have to consistantly be in afterburner to maintain that speed, which uses up tons of fuel.
No, I am almost positive a F-22 can catch anything in the air today.
Oh yeah, it also has a little thing called stealth.
Originally posted by bdn12
stellarx, what the hell are you talking about.
First of all, if you are talking about a large war between the U.S. and China or Russia, you say the F-22 has to bomb targets on the ground to protect the troops.
Do you really think we'd have many, if any, troops in China or Russia in a massive war like that.
As of 2005, the United States occupied over 700 military bases in over 36 countries worldwide.[5] Some of the largest contingents are:
Germany 64,319
Japan (United States Forces Japan) 33,453
South Korea (United States Forces Korea) 29,086
Italy 10,449
United Kingdom 10,331
en.wikipedia.org...
If the F-22 can barely get in, how the hell do you expect a large, slow transport or ship to get soldiers on the ground.
A war like that would most likely be fought in the sea and air, not the ground like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Also, you say the F-22 isn't fast enought to catch SU-27's, Mig-31's, or even Mig-29's. That is total bull#.
The only one I can see having a chance is the Mig-31. The F-22, as stated by pilots, can at the minimum supercruise at Mach 1.8. The top speed is upwards of 1600 mph, as stated by Paul Metz, a test pilot.
Those other fighters have to consistantly be in afterburner to maintain that speed, which uses up tons of fuel.
No, I am almost positive a F-22 can catch anything in the air today.
Oh yeah, it also has a little thing called stealth.
Originally posted by StellarX
If the F-22 can barely get in, how the hell do you expect a large, slow transport or ship to get soldiers on the ground.
I did not claim that the F-22 could not fly ANYWHERE in the world but simply that it will have as hard a time as anything else to penetrate, or operate within range of , modern Russian type air defenses.
Originally posted by StellarX
It's true but if you refuse to read 'stuff' there is not much i can do to convince you.
Originally posted by StellarX
I did not manage to track down that quote so maybe you can provide me with that source, or any other for that matter, that indicates that the F-22 can do very nearly Mach 3.
Originally posted by StellarX
The F-22 can only super cruise( mach 1.7 ) for a few hundred Km's if it is to manage a range of anything close to 1500 Km and that's with drop tanks and no stealth at all. Sorry....
Originally posted by StellarX
This is not a question of 'belief' but one of 'facts' and while i am not sure what the Raptors top speed is i know it is unlikely to ever operate at Mach 2 speeds without breaking all the warranties.
Originally posted by Canada_EH
To me this seems to be a main thread of yours and I wonder what modern defenses your talking about? Did the Russians have a thread in the cold war with their 100 plus stations all around the USSR yeah maybe but as with anything there are holes to exploite.
Current Soviet air surveillance radar deployments include more than 7,000 radars of various types located at about 1,200 sites. These deployments provide virtually complete coverage at medium to high altitudes over the USSR and in some areas extends hundreds of kilometers beyond the borders. Limited coverage against low-altitude targets is concentrated in the western USSR and in high-priority areas elsewhere. Since 1983, The Soviets have begun to deploy two new air surveillance radars. These radars assist in the early warning of cruise missile and bomber attacks and enhance air defense electronic warfare capabilities.
www.fas.org...
The proper way to use stealth and for what it was designed was to reduce return over distance. effectivelly it creates holes in a radar belt by being harder (no impossible to detect in comparison to a "norm" aircraft. If the station could detect a norm plane at 500km it will only be able to pick up the 22 at 250km.
and if this station is in a belt of radars that are spaced 1000km apart the 22 now has a hole 500km wide that it can fly undetected.
The above principle is how stealth should be deplyed and well if its not the goverment got in the way again. bottom line I disagree the F-22 will have a easier time then anything else to penetrate enemy airspace.
Originally posted by waynos
westy, re AESA and the F-15, yes that is the plan, quite right. However as far as the last reports I read go the funding for that plan is not yet certain (and such things are always subject to change).
Originally posted by waynos
However it does not change my point that promoting the F-15 over certain rivals because 'it has AESA' is disingenuous, or at least premature.
Originally posted by waynos
I also noticed the comment that an LPI radar will give no warning (if the same person made these claims I'm not having a go, I just wanted to answer these specifics).