PentaCon is not a Hoax

Originally posted by Aldo Marquis

You mean the debris primarily centered near he helipad, the little scraps that were more than likely blown from the "storage trailers"?

No the debris that was scattered all through out the lawn. And the debris from light poles and taxi cab on the roads that you claim were planted as well.

Calls? As in more than one? The only one I remember is from Barbara Olsen and that account from her hubby is highly problematic. Not to mention, we have further proof that phones were deactivated prior to 9/11.

You're forgetting Renee May. And you thinking the phone call is problematic? So the recordings were made of her and she must have been in on it too now? She killed herself to be part of this caper? Her husband played along with her death to be part of that caper? Or did they manage to clone her voice so well that all her family members were fooled? Or are the family members in on it too?

And sweeny's family is in on it too I suppose?

Where do you people come from? Show me the bodies. Show me the parts being matched to mx logs. Not 6 years after. Show me within the months following the event.

There are pictures on the trail site. There are the DNA results. There are the testimonies form the rescuers. There are the belongings that have been confirmed by the family members (which are often used to identify people). Do you have proof that these family members, the many DNA testing companies, and all the people who handled bodies, are all in on this caper too?

You can believe whatever you want. Because apparently you do. Stop setting up weak little straw men arguments that we've never even asserted. This is how the inept debate.

Straw man????? No sir. YOU made thee claims. And you have to accept the results from your claims. How do you explain your claims? What this is is YOU avoiding the subject by trying to call it strawman. You claim that flight 77 didn't hit the pentagon. So you need to explain how that stuff and the people got there and what happened to flight 77. Otherwise you haven't proven your case, you simply found some odd evidence. And of course you simply make the rest up. Just like you make up the part about bombs and the plane veering away.

Do you mean Terry Morin?

s the aircraft flew ever lower I started to lose sight of the actual airframe as a row of trees to the Northeast of the FOB blocked my view. I could now only see the tail of the aircraft. I believe I saw the tail dip slightly to the right indicating a minor turn in that direction.
. . . The tail was barely visible when I saw the flash and subsequent fireball rise approximately 200 feet above the Pentagon.


Sounds like he saw the plane before it flew over.

In fact, Northeast of the FOB could very well be the North side of the Citgo.

Doesn't sound like that to me at all. If it flew over he would have seen it veer away. Or are we to believe it continued just over top of the traffic on the other side of the building too and yet not a single person on the streets saw it? Seriously?

You mean the 5 frames that were originally leaked and no one could or would take credit for?

Officials from the Pentagon said the photos were not released officially by the Department of Defense. A Pentagon spokeswoman could not verify that they came from surveillance cameras.

"The Pentagon has not released any video or any photos from security cameras from the terrorist attack of Sept. 11," said Pentagon spokeswoman Cheryl Irwin.

A spokeswoman at the Department of Justice, which reviews taped and photographed evidence obtained by federal security cameras, said she could not comment on whether the photos are legitimate, adding that the photos "were not disseminated by the FBI or the Department of Justice."

You mean the surveillance video with a frame missing?

You mean the surveillance video that shows an object and it's smoke plume/trail that DOES NOT cast a shadow?

You mean the smoke plume that NOT ONE WITNESS SAW. Not even dubious witnesses mention it.

Nice try, but we know where the video came from. If you are trying to claim it's fake, then show your evidence. Quote mining is not evidence. No it wasn't officially released it was leaked because no investigation is going to hand out evidence during the investigation. But like in most big situations evidence gets leaked out.

And what missing frame? Are you referring to the version from the cult tabloids where they put fake time stamps on the frames? And put the fake date on it? The smoke trail is the damaged engine which was in the path of a light pole.

And more importantly, it shows something, anything you want to imagine it is hitting the building and nothing flying over. So even pretending it isn't flight 77, it still is more evidence that your claims are completely wrong. And what witnesses would see the smoke from the engine when it started only a second before the impact?

No, I know. They just "think". It's a figment of their imagination. They all imagined it at once.

A common phenomenon.

As opposed to you imagining that the plane must have flown over and that they must have planted all this evidence in front of everyone without them knowing and that they must have faked the phone calls, and tha they must have faked the surveilance video, and that they must have planted bombs in the building, and that they must have planted the taxi cab driver and his cab in front of everyone, and that the USA people are in on it, and it can go on and on with things that you imagine must have happened.

What it all comes down to is you trying to use a piece of evidence which is low on the reliability scale and use it to discard all other evidence and simply make up the rest. You don't mind making up the part about bombs and what not, but when asked how you make up for other issues you call it strawman.

Craig, I told you.

ATS is trying to control the information.

This thread should not have been moved to our forum.

Yet it was. I am not putting up with this spook operation at ATS.

Snoopy, I am not going to waste my time on you-go do some actual research on the witnesses-you are talkin out of your ass. You people are underinformed and are hanging onto your denial. When ANY OF you want to take it to a recorded phone call debate for everyone to hear. Hit me up.

WE ARE NOT STOPPING.

Originally posted by Aldo Marquis
Craig, I told you.

ATS is trying to control the information.

This thread should not have been moved to our forum.

Yet it was. I am not putting up with this spook operation at ATS.

We give you a forum, which you've used as a soap box. Given you latitude and we get this # in return when someone posts something that you can't answer?

If we're a "spook" operation why did you take the time to post here?

Snoopy, I am not going to waste my time on you-go do some actual research on the witnesses-you are talkin out of your ass. You people are underinformed and are hanging onto your denial. When ANY OF you want to take it to a recorded phone call debate for everyone to hear. Hit me up.

WHY? Phone messages can be manipulated. By posting here you've absolved yourself from legal issues. "He knew we were going to take it to a recorded phone call debate..." Then you can edit at will.

WE ARE NOT STOPPING.

That remains to be seen.

We give you a forum, which you've used as a soap box. Given you latitude and we get this # in return when someone posts something that you can't answer?

You didn't give us #. SO did.

And for the record I was against this BS forum to begin with. This is Craig's baby.

I can answer his crap. I have answered his crap. There is no answer that will ever satisfy the idiots and spooks on this forum. They get an answer and avoid it and carry on with their agenda.

If we're a "spook" operation why did you take the time to post here?

To fight the "ignorance" you all so proudly claim you "deny". I took the time to defend my work and my good name. Who are you again? Oh yeah an anonymous henchman on a notorious website.

WHY? Phone messages can be manipulated. By posting here you've absolved yourself from legal issues. "He knew we were going to take it to a recorded phone call debate..." Then you can edit at will.

Oh please. You are accusing us of manipulating phone calls that haven't even taken place. This has nothing to do with you. So mind your business. And by business I mean this profiteering website. The website with the pop-ups and ads. The website that tries to control information like it was proprietory. The website that profits of the death of the people who died on 9/11.

So we are being accused by you of doing something we haven't even done yet. Who are you again? What is your name?

That remains to be seen.

Yeah, well keep your eyes open.

PS. Now I WILL ANSWER snoopy. Especially for you.

Funny dude, when challenged you attack, that's not good form in debate. It indicates a weak position. You've just insulted members, this forum and myself. Is that all you have when your info is taken to task? I could have torn your post apart but I think you did a good enough job on your own. I'm not the type to rub salt in wounds.

Aldo Marquis has been temporarily post-banned pending administrative review.
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Everyone calm down, take a step back from the computers and take a deep breath.

Being passionate about what you believe is good, defending your position is also a good thing.

Aldo is a new member, and is not immune to the terms and conditions of use, that all here must abide by when posting. That said, this thread was moved to this forum, and seems to have caused some frustration. The move was made because this thread was being used to present information by CIT. And both the subject line, and opening post supported the Pentacon CIT. This seemed like the appropriate forum for this thread.

Please, anyone who reads this, the terms and conditions of use for AboveTopSecret.com are here also to help us keep discussions civil, something that is rare in online discussion forums, and is something we take seriously here.

We are not spooks, we staff are members who were invited to do this moderating, and we do it because we enjoy this site, and believe in the motto, deny ignorance.

That does not mean we are perfect, and most certainly we do not control information, we quite simply try to maintain decorum and civility, and really is that too much to ask?

The terms and conditions of use are there, and apply to all, we censor nothing posted within the boundaries of the terms and conditions, we do not control information, but we do take action on those who are rude, and choose to personally attack fellow members.

That said, perhaps some time to reflect on what transpired here and in other threads, and a review of the terms and conditions of use will let cooler heads prevail, those of us who wish can agree to disagree, debate, discuss, exchange information, opinion, and thoughts in a civil manner moving forward.

[edit on 10-6-2007 by UM_Gazz]

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
. That said, this thread was moved to this forum, and seems to have caused some frustration. The move was made because this thread was being used to present information by CIT. And both the subject line, and opening post supported the Pentacon CIT. This seemed like the appropriate forum for this thread.

Meanwhile the "Is the PenatCon a hoax?" thread still exists in the main forum for everyone to see. This thread was created as a RETRACTION of that thread and now you've hidden it away.

Not cool at all.

And why was this thread moved to this forum?

It doesn't mention The PentaCon or CIT at all.

Having this thread moved after that one can only imply a desire to control information.

Is everything that we post, or everything favorable about our documentary going to get moved while people are free to attack the information we present all they want in the main forum?

Because that is what it looks like.

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
... can only imply a desire to control information.

Ummm.. no!

That is where your logic is terribly wrong. I've said it many times over the last few days, there is no censorship or desire to "control" information here at ATS.

There is only a NEED to ORGANIZE information and enforce the terms and Conditions for civility. Anything else is your imagination in my honest opinion.

You guys have been given special status (Conspiracy Master) and your very own forum with special billing (Pentacon) yet you accuse ATS of shuffling you off the "main forum"? Your threads appear bright orange in the "recent posts" page, so to me that accusation makes no sense.
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Threads in our forum do not get the same attention as in the main forum.

This is a fact.

This thread is a RETRACTION to an attack thread.

It's not right that the attack thread is left in the main forum while this one is hidden away.

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
And why was this thread moved to this forum?

In that thread, Aldo opens with:

I will be turning this into a published piece, but I would first like to work it all out here. I will try and do in the order of Arabesque's quotes & witnesses listed on his page

Normally, we would not support a thread from a brand new member that begins that way... and even veteran members would need advance permission to do such a thing.

However, such activity can be justified from within the confines of the dedicated forum provided to you and your group, so it was moved. I believe I already explained this via U2U.

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
Threads in our forum do not get the same attention as in the main forum.

It's not right ... while this one is hidden away.

Are you asking to have your Conspiracy Master status and Special Forum priviledges revoked so as to have your threads be part of the "main forum"?

I'm getting a little confused here.

Help me out.
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Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
Threads in our forum do not get the same attention as in the main forum....
...It's not right that the attack thread is left in the main forum while this one is hidden away.

You are wrong, the threads here have the same level of exposure here as in any ATS forum, and are provided search engine optimization. It is just as, of not more visible here to members guests and THOUSANDS of visitors.

This is your exclusive forum to present your information and discuss it in. However it is also an AboveTopSecret.com discussion forum.

Go check the recent thread list, your threads and forum are there.

Do some key word googling of some key words from some of your threads here.

It is most certainly not "hidden", in fact quite the opposite is true.

[edit on 10-6-2007 by UM_Gazz]

I know I don't go to any of the other special forums.

The only forum I ever went to before this one was 9/11 conspiracies.

Regardless if the research/witness thread move was justified.....this thread was a direct retraction from Nick.

It should be in the main room.

Originally posted by Gools

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
Threads in our forum do not get the same attention as in the main forum.

It's not right ... while this one is hidden away.

Are you asking to have your Conspiracy Master status and Special Forum priviledges revoked so as to have your threads be part of the "main forum"?

I'm getting a little confused here.

Help me out.
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Nope.

I'm asking that if other forum members make threads about our information in the main forum that they get left there.

Especially if they are a direct retraction to an attack.

Originally posted by snoopy

No the debris that was scattered all through out the lawn. And the debris from light poles and taxi cab on the roads that you claim were planted as well

Debris all through out the lawn? Care to share a pic of said debris scattered all through out the lawn?
As far as the light poles and the taxicab, do your homework on this here board my friend, because that has been discussed and disected ad nausium.

You're forgetting Renee May. And you thinking the phone call is problematic? So the recordings were made of her and she must have been in on it too now? She killed herself to be part of this caper? Her husband played along with her death to be part of that caper? Or did they manage to clone her voice so well that all her family members were fooled? Or are the family members in on it too?

For all you or I or anyone who reads this really knows Renee May just MAY or MAY NOT exist.
Sounds crazy huh, that a totally ficticous person would be created to support a story.
Its not hard to create a 'person' if your the CIA.
Heck, they wanted to create an entire planeload of people for operation northwoods, ficticious names with ficticous grieveing families at home.

Oh and I like how you fill your arguement in there with a bunch of dribble, asking silly questions while not even entertaining the possibility that Renee May not even exist....

There are pictures on the trail site.

If your going to be a debunker of any quality you are going to have to post some pictures man. Show me these pictures please.

There are the DNA results.

The only thing that DNA results show is that samples match.
The important thing that most people fail to realize is that the gathering of the sample could have been done anywhere at anytime. DNA does not prove a body was in the pentagon on 9/11.

There are the testimonies form the rescuers.

What testimonies claiming what? Bodies in the pentagon? Obviously. Bodies from the plane? Where?Link please, like I should even have to ask.

There are the belongings that have been confirmed by the family members.

Yeah so if I show you some of my belongings it means Im dead? Do my belongings show you how I died, or where?

Do you have proof that these family members, the many DNA testing companies, and all the people who handled bodies, are all in on this caper too?

Nice straw man, since you cant fathom any more subtle or covert way then to include every person from the DNA testers to the family members then the must ALL be in on it right? Absurd logic my man, absurd to say the least.

Straw man? No sir. YOU made the claims. And you have to accept the results from your claims. How do you explain your claims? What this is is YOU avoiding the subject by trying to call it strawman. You claim that flight 77 didn't hit the pentagon. So you need to explain how that stuff and the people got there and what happened to flight 77. Otherwise you haven't proven your case, you simply found some odd evidence. And of course you simply make the rest up. Just like you make up the part about bombs and the plane veering away.

Another classic.
If you cant counter every question thrown at you with a simply answer then you obviously are just a wild CTer.
Snoopy,its really too bad you dont focus some of your attention towards the governments version of what happened and start scrutinizing it like you have scrutinized this young man and his investigative work.
WIth an eye for detail like you have it should become apparent that the official version is false and misleading, no?


[edit on 10-6-2007 by 11Bravo]

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
It should be in the main room.

I can move it if you like... but it's an active thread and you won't be getting the revenue share.

Also, as far as exposure, some of your forum threads have spent considerable time on the site home page, which is the #1 highest trafficked page on all of ATS.

Ok deal move it back.

I don't have any "revenue" sharing set up anyway nor do I care to.

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
I know I don't go to any of the other special forums.

The only forum I ever went to before this one was 9/11 conspiracies.

Regardless if the research/witness thread move was justified.....this thread was a direct retraction from Nick.

It should be in the main room.

I'm the same, and share the perception that this forum is less visible than the general 9/11 forum. From what I gather, I agree either this belongs there or the original "Hoax" thread belongs here as well. It doesn't seem quite symmetrical how it is. And a non-CIT thread author? When there's no post new thread button? It doesn't seem to fit. But then I don't get the whole situation. Informationally it fits here - or there. I kinda like being able to gnore it, but that's not supposed to be the point...

ETA: I see it's apparently fixed

PS - Aldo's responses on the columns were pretty inadequate, but feel free to pretend otherwise. You can have the punch-out hole mystery and undamaged foundation and the rest. Your eyewitnesses prove it. Say I ceded, I've admitted your video and theory are undeniably true, I've retracted and recanted and begged forgiveness for my sins agains the smoking gun truth if you like. I'm done, and off in search of reasoned debate.










[edit on 11-6-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT

You have ADMITTED it was a hastily written, poorly done, rush to judgment "hit-piece". You called us "Pentagon sponsored disinfo" for gods' sake!

It most certainly was an empty, unjustified ATTACK.

There is no other way to characterize it.

Suspicion of disinfo. Based on a pttern I had already identified (Rummy's missile "admission," etc.) that it fell right into. I've never made a specific argument to that end.

Long past due Retraction/clarification: if not gloatworthy. The PentaCon is neither misinformation nor disinformation. It is IMO a forceful presentation of a flawed theory extrapolated according to eyewitnesses whose odd accounts are certainly evidence of something, leveraged to fit a pre-conceived notion contrary to the general body of evidnce as I see it. I have no reason to think the CIT are deliberately miselading people, it's only my opinion they are misleading at all, and there's no evidence the Pentagon are involved in this operation in any way.

Jeez, why didn't I clear that up better before.

Otherwise, the review was rushed. Some typos. Now it's empty? I had no real concerns worth publishing? It was only motivated by my irrational hatred of your video? Puh-leeeeze. Basically what I said is I don't buy it and here's why. I don't give a hoot if you like the content. Of course you don't, and that's why you lash back, because it was an attack on your theory that worked. You need to get better at taking criticism and quit trying to read too much into a passing observation and a few mistakes. Oohh, he's so eager to hurt our wonderful theiry he can't even type straight blah blah blah.

It may be hard for you to see someone call a spade a spade in the forum but that's what your article amounted to.

Clearly you agreed enough to take it down so coming back to defend my accurate characterization by arguing semantics seems rather wishy washy.

Say what you will about where I stand. You would know better than me wouldn't you? You're an expert after all at extrapolating what people mean, and always so objectively. But for the record I have never "admitted" I was wrong in the core issue of doubting your theory and criticizing the approach and logic of it. I have bent over backwards enough for you. Just keep re-hashing that little victory there, CL pulled his hit piece blah blah blah. That should tide you over till DRG helps you get that little second wind. You are not stopping, so just keep on going, man, and you'll get where you're headed to.

Aldo: I feel there's no need for a phone conversation. It's established to my satisfaction that there can be no informational breakthrough either way, and whatever you want to explain to me is already evident enough. You guys believe what you believe, and you don't want to keep fighting me over it. Me neither. My energy is better used elsewhere.

I wish you guys luck.