you have to eat but all there are is other people..what do you do?

It took a lot of guts to even start this thread So I gotta give ya kudos there. As for your character flaws, just ignore the nay sayers.

i think for you, your opinion is right. i don't personally agree that makes us like/no better than the animals cause for one, we are a human animal and for two, that is your moral compass that makes you feel that way..not mine.

See I said common animal. We are most definitely animals but not common. We as a race are above the animals and as such we must not act like them or why else did we develop this wonderful brain? I don't think morality has anything to do with my post. it has more to do with the facts that this planet tends to get rid of species that kills and eats them selves.

Again just my opinion.

It's just crash+mountains=eat your mates.

Holy Crap!!!! When I read that I almost pissed my pants!!! I seldom laugh that hard whilst reading anything. Thanks for that even though you were serious.

As for what I said, after reading the first page of this thread I suddenly got a picture in my mind of Jeff Dahmer sitting at his PC typing while a pot full of skulls boils away in the background. It made me wonder if it was possible that an actual cannibalistic serial killer were posting within the thread?

I wasn't trying to pass judgment on anyone, just thinking about human nature.

As for the scenario of floating stranded in a life raft and then dispatching someone and eating them...What if a ship suddenly appeared as you were just finishing your first meal of human flesh? Would it then become a crime or would it depend on how long you had gone without food? What factors would make it a crime or not?

Boondock,

What about one of my other scenarios? What if you were told that you would have to give up one of your two children or both would be killed, say by a Nazieske type group getting their thrills or something?

What if a group of survivors were going to take one of your kids to kill and feed the others?

These scenarios are of course in the event that you were at a disadvantage and couldn't stop the others.

libra, thanks for addressing all that. i will try to do the same

as far as physically easier to hike down a mountain vs kill a person. now, i am only speaking for myself. yes, it is pyhsically easier.
i have degenerative disc disease. i have a spinal fusion at l5s1. titanium cage, cadaever bone and a piece of bone from my hip. surgery failed and i have nerve damage.
now, i can't hardly make it through cutting my lawn when i have a full belly, let alone hike the andes. now, before i got hurt i was a wrestler/grappler, took western boxing and muay thai. now, i am not as fast or as able as i used to be but i am still very adept at in fighting and joint manipulations. if i HAD to, it would be much easier for me(physically, i don't know where i would be mentally) to make the kill than it would be to make the hike.


i see what you are saying about the core of humanity....thats kinda why i started it. ever since i saw that show i have read up a bit on other cases like the andes thing and simply often wondered about it. i think about it sometimes. i guess i have a warped mind.
i don't/can'r work. i am a househusband...i wash dishes here and there, take care of the finances, and sit here with my thoughts.
i tend to lead towards the strange stuff though. things like this, i read a lot about diseases. wiki has 189 pages of disease in alpha order and i am making my way through it. i read about guys like ed gein and albert fish...then, i read about freud. just ordered a 1,000 page book of his general writings. i am just fascinated by things that have to do with the human mind(like choices in eating human flesh, possilbly killing someone, how you deal with learning you have als).....crazy i know but i assure you all, i have NO DESIRE to taste human flesh. i am simply stating that i would do it.

how did i give out the impression that i would eat flesh pretty fast? cause i just got right to it? and sorry if it appeared like disdain but my point was not to try and read through posts of 'i would find another way' or 'i would eat llama or insects'....of course we would all go through those processes.
i wanted to know from the people here, how they would feel about that scenerio...not this or that...
i mean, we can start another thread and talk about what would we try to do to survive insteead of eating human flesh and i will participate willingly. i just didn't want to do it here.

a couple of them were willing to hike up and climb for help. but this only happened after they ate the flesh. before that they were starving trying to eat leather. they made the choice as a collective group.
i know the people in this situation were already dead. thats why i addressed it in the first post...
the search for rescue did work...after they ate the flesh. that is in fact what happened. we don't know if they would have been rescued(due to not being able to survive the 71 days, dying of hunger and/or not being able to make the hike. the flesh is what allowed them to make it 71 days and allowed them to make the hike.)

i agree about not getting cocky and keeping a clear head. i think it is easier to think straight about this stuff as we post here vs if we actualy were tired, maybe injured, thirsty, hungry, cold/hot, dead friends/family around you....that has to enter the equation.
blood loss? elevation? temp?

----------------------

angryamerican, i get you...and again, i respect the opinion....we are animal though. we are flesh eaters....i agree, sitting down for dinner and chowing down on thigh albert fish style is very macabe. thats why i am talking survival...

-----------------

jbondo, i think it is absolutely possible that a cannabal or murderer/serial killer posts here. why not?
this site has thousands of members. those kinda people have the internet too.
i don't know what would happen if you were rescued right after the event...
never had to deal with it...

as to your scenerio, would i give up one kid or have them both killed? well, of course assuming there is no alternate choice, i say i would allow them both to be killed. i could not make a choice between my kids. i would promptly shoot mself in the temple if i was released...everything would cease to matter.


[edit on 8-6-2007 by Boondock78]

OP, seriously dude, you need to get out more. Your thread before this one was on the survival value of dog food.

You have some real issues with calorie intake.

Originally posted by NGC2736
OP, seriously dude, you need to get out more. Your thread before this one was on the survival value of dog food.

You have some real issues with calorie intake.

..chronic pain. nerve damage.
i do get out, just not a lot.
my calorie intake is fine. i just mowed some hungry howies with cajun crust.


like i said man, i have a earped head....thats the stuff i think about.

You're pretty "cut and dried" about everything. this would probably be to your benefit in a survival situation.

Of course I keep looking at the pic of the Butcher under your name and it seems to (as has been mentioned) translate into your posts.

I have to say though, that was an excellent film!

Originally posted by jbondo
You're pretty "cut and dried" about everything. this would probably be to your benefit in a survival situation.

Of course I keep looking at the pic of the Butcher under your name and it seems to (as has been mentioned) translate into your posts.

I have to say though, that was an excellent film!

i am very cut an dry about damn near everything.

so a different avatar would give a different opinion...i could change it to a pretty pink flower or an ice cream cone....

i will change it if i can navigate to the panel

edit*

I would never, ever, kill another human being just to eat them. That is sick and wrong, killing someone just to save your own ass is something I can't even begin to fathom.

Now if the person is already dead and I was on the brink of starvation, then yes, I would eat them. Probably feel terrible about it, but at least I'm alive and they don't have to suffer.

In all truth though, I can't honestly say that I would, if and when the situation arises then I'll have to deal with it.

Originally posted by Zanzibar
I would never, ever, kill another human being just to eat them. That is sick and wrong, killing someone just to save your own ass is something I can't even begin to fathom.

first, your avatar is amazing...

about your comment, this is the kinda talk i wanted to get into. totally repect your opinion. i on the other hand feel the opposite. i can not fathom not killing someone to save yourself.

not saying you are wrong or anything like that.

what is it that makes you sit on one end and me on the other? it's just fascinating stuff. the human brain, societal 'norms' and 'taboos'...

Originally posted by Boondock78
as far as physically easier to hike down a mountain vs kill a person. now, i am only speaking for myself. yes, it is pyhsically easier.

In the condition you mentioned, I'd think it'd probably make more sense logically to volunteer yourself as the meal in that instance. In that extremely rare set of circumstances where there is no other possible choice but for someone to get eaten, or starve, then it makes more sense for the chance at survival to be given to someone who can make the best use of it.

I hope that doesn't come across as crass, or an insult, I just figure since we've already delved into one of the darkest pits of survival, we might as well take pragmatism to its fullest.

To survive such an extreme set of circumstances will take more than mere food. It will likely take every ounce of strength, agility, and so forth, to escape the situation and get to a food source or last long enough to be rescued. It makes no sense to take a life and eat the flesh just to sit and remain in the same position waiting to die for a bit longer, when you can't even make use of the energy you've gotten from eating.

If there were only two people, no food, and zero hope of survival without one eating the other, and one ambulatory and the other not, then it would be the highest chance of survival for the ambulatory person to eat the one who isn't.

Further, without a weapon designed to kill, and without the physical training and prowess for doing so, killing another human is very difficult. If you're a trained Navy SEAL you might know how to slip up on another passenger and break their neck, even in your condition, but unless you're a ninja or have a gun, they're likely to just get really pissed when you try to club them with a rock (people don't just fall over like in the movies), they'll run away out of your range, and then use your disability against you to eventually kill you, restrain you, or abandon you.

Again, I don't mean any of that as a personal attack, I just figure if we're discussing something as dark as cannibalism, then taboos are pretty much out the window as far as the practicality of it. By "you" I mean anyone here who might not have full movement of body.

Originally posted by Boondock78
i don't/can'r work. i am a househusband

...i wash dishes here and there, take care of the finances, and sit here with my thoughts.

No shame there. Being a househusbamd is what I'd do if we could survive on my wife's salary.

Originally posted by Boondock78
i tend to lead towards the strange stuff though. things like this, i read a lot about diseases. wiki has 189 pages of disease in alpha order and i am making my way through it. i read about guys like ed gein and albert fish...then, i read about freud. just ordered a 1,000 page book of his general writings.

Well, err... it takes all sorts to make a world, I suppose, but there are some mentally healthier pasttimes out there. Did you have some intent to use this knowledge to a purpose? Such as becoming a doctor or a police detective or something?

Originally posted by Boondock78
how did i give out the impression that i would eat flesh pretty fast?

I almost addressed this last post, but I forgot to... lemme go back and grab some snippets that gave that impression. Admittedly, the butcher avatar really added to the image.

Here's a few gems that more or less gave the impression:

Originally posted by Boondock78

...i simply don't agree. i am that important. i don't want to die. IMO, this is not murder. this is survival...

...YOUR morals? they are not the same as mine...

...there is a 'healty'(as in not decaying) pile of flesh that you and your kids could live off of for days and you wouldn't touch it?...

...so, there IS food and drink there in that dingy.....thing is, do you take it?...

...well, i find it sad that most won't do it to survive cause the world has placed their morals upon you...

...i can't believe all these people that get bent....let me guess, all the people that said they would are bad people right?...

...it sounds like there are cannibles here cause some of us can realize the reality of this scenerio?...

...i can understand people saying they wouldn't kill a person to eat them but if you are starving and that morning someone that was stranded with you died, i can't imagine NOT eating it...i really can't...

...i can NOT fathom imminent death if i do not eat while there is a pile of 'meat' laying right there. it just don't compute...not for me...

...it is also possible you could live off of someone long enough to find another food source or get rescued and live for many years, or team up, try with limited energy to do something, then die...

...i am not a sociopath by maybe a tad crazy like the guy above though...

...as far as living happily, well, i'm not all that friggin happy now.....i don't know what would happen after, i just know i would do whatever i could to make sure there is an after...

That's more or less a sampling of your responses, combined with the butcher avi, and the rather macabre subject matter, and the repeated insistance that no one consider any other alternative... surely you can see how the impression might be given.

Originally posted by Boondock78
my point was not to try and read through posts of 'i would find another way' or 'i would eat llama or insects'....of course we would all go through those processes.

Well, no, not everyone would. That's the thing. It can't be assumed because some people are either too squeamish, too ignorant, or too unimaginative. The same can be said for cannibalism. The vast majority of any circumstance where cannibalism is an option, there's almost certainly other options available, and typically, the more team members, the more options there are.

The reason you are seeing these responses is because most of us who frequent the Survival forum recognize this fact, and most of us either would either be prepared enough to avoid the situation, or would immediately set about (usually successfully) in finding a way to get potable water, food, and shelter (in that order) without killing anyone who wasn't threatening our lives.

The concept of letting yourself be caught alive so unprepared, unable, and inescapable, is alien to most of us, because we've spent so much time and effort figuring out how we would get out of such a situation. That's why you're seeing those kinds of replies.

That and simply answering "Yes" or "No" to the post would count as a one-liner, and we frown on that. Additionally, even if simple Yes and No were not frowned upon, there aren't a whole lot of people who would simply say "Yes" to such a question, because a simple Yes implies they wouldn't bother with the other stuff first. So they place a justification upon it.

Originally posted by Boondock78
a couple of them were willing to hike up and climb for help. but this only happened after they ate the flesh.

Yeah, but had they immediately set about hiking down the mountains with the scant supplies and knowledge that they had, as well as leaving a trail of "breadcrumbs" of wreckage or ribbons or something, they never would have had to resort to eating the dead. That was my point. A survivalist isn't just going to sit at his plane wreck unless he has a functional radio communication going with a rescue party that's currently on their way.



[edit on 6/8/2007 by thelibra]

libra, i respect your opinion...about it making more logical sense o me giving myself up is not very logical to me. either way, thats not happening...how is offereing yourself up logical? that is not self preservation.
i guess you are thinking about what is best for the collective group. unless that group was my family members, i would be worried about them but not to that degree, thats for sure.

not insulted at all.

it makes sense to me to keep youself alive even if you can't get out of whatever spot you are in...ok, not strong enough to hike the andes and look for rescue, but you have enough flesh to keep you alive and there is part of a plane to shield you from some of the wind.
you eat and you stay alive which in itself would be a fight. just cause rescue didn't come on day one, don't mean they won't come on day 3 or day 30..you have to stay alive as long as posible.
if there is other fod, eat it. if you can get moving to look for an out, do it. if all you can do though is club dude on the head with a rock and stay alive, then you do it...

of course the highest chance for survival would be the mobile person to eat, but that said, i wouldn't let em have it....if they're coming after me, i'll fight it off best i can.
if it was my wife or son, i filet my friggin leg myself to keep them alive.

i don't agree at all about what you said though without a weapon designed to kill. people may know that i have an injury but nobody knows what i am capable o fbut my doc, me and my wife.
you do not have to be a trained navy seal type dude to kill someone. not by a long shot.
there are tons of ways to choke a person out that does take a small burst of energy but don't take long.
there are ways.

you saying you can't knock a person out and then bludgeon them with a rock? it don't take that many shots man....

no offense taken to any of that man....lets toss all the taboos out. i don't care...anyone here can say anything they want about me...i don't care.
i'm not the get offended type.

people are entitled to your opinion.i would stand beside you for your right to call me filthy names...

i like being a househusband i just didn't like being forced into it.

no intent to use the knowledge...i just want to know it

the only reason i insisted that no other alternatives be mentioned is cause that is not the point of the thread. like i said, we can discuss all kinds. i will participate...i just wanted to cut through all that.

about letting yourself get cought in a situation, there are situations that are simply out of your control. you can't control if your plane is gonna crash or where...

i wasn't asking for a yes or no answer. i never asked for as much.
maybe answer it then explain your answer...seems to work.
i would not because but i would if they were dead because.

to your last paragraph, what, do you walk right out of the plane and get to hiking? what if it is just getting dark? kiss those hours goodbye. what if there is some sort of storm that takes away the visibality. they also tried to take care of their friends, scrounge for stuff. that stuff takes a little bit of time.
either way, they did what they did and you don't know that if they got to hiking right away they would not have to resort to that. they had to try it a few times..they made it so far once and got stuck there over night. so there was 2 more days of their rescue hike gone. so now they are more cold, tired, hungry...you suggest they try it again? you need food or you will die out there. seems like they realized this.

now, i don't mean to offend but it seems that some here are insistent that there will always be another way and we simply do not know that(assuming death is not that other way)...

you know, what if you crashed with a bunch of people and 2 people died but you were all busted up and the rest were healthy and they ditched you.
now, they are healthy and hiking with whatever rations they scraped up but they left you behind cause of your injuries.
you say join the group and find away. what if the group don't want you?
you just curl up next to the dead body and wait for your death to come or do you try and hang on one more day cause just maybe.......?



[edit on 8-6-2007 by Boondock78]

Like it or not the will to survive is #1 priority ! If I exuasted all options as far as sustanence is concerned and I was absolutly starveing to death I would eat human flesh ! If the other person was already dead , why not ?Meat is meat period ! I hope to god that none of us are ever faced with this situation .

Originally posted by SHADOW WALKER
Like it or not the will to survive is #1 priority ! If I exuasted all options as far as sustanence is concerned and I was absolutly starveing to death I would eat human flesh ! If the other person was already dead , why not ?Meat is meat period ! I hope to god that none of us are ever faced with this situation .

that is the reality of the human animal. self preservation(and that extends to your wife/kids, actually thanks to our brain, they usually supercede yourself)..living is priority one.

now, i CAN understand a person not being able to mentally make the kill. society/people/whatever places heavy morals upon us. some put it upon themselves so i can kinda sorta see where they couldn't do it. now, with a person that is already dead though, i can not see just letting it rot while you die. you are not 'murdering' anyone, but merely doing what you have to do to survive.
you back a person into a tight enough corner, you might be suprised what some are capable of

Originally posted by Boondock78
so a different avatar would give a different opinion...i could change it to a pretty pink flower or an ice cream cone....

i will change it if i can navigate to the panel

edit*

Originally posted by Boondock78
how is offereing yourself up logical? that is not self preservation.
i guess you are thinking about what is best for the collective group. unless that group was my family members, i would be worried about them but not to that degree, thats for sure.

See I guess that's probably a big dividing point on the whole ideology. Some people work ultimately for the good of the group, and some work ultimately for the good of the self.

To me, self-sacrifice is the ultimate altruistic act. I hate to use movie examples in any Survivalist thread, but when you see in the movies how the one injured guy stays behind to buy time for the others to escape, that's what I hope my own self would be capable of doing under the same circumstances.

If I were injured or disabled, and stranded at the top of the Andes with an able bodied friend, it's a numbers game. If I only have a 0.01% chance of survival, and the able-bodied person has a 50% chance, and there was zero chance at all of both of us making it down, I'm going to give that other person the chance.

I might ask they please give a message to my family, tell my son I died with honor, or something of the sort, but I'd go to my grave knowing I'd made the right choice. That doesn't make me eager to die, or less likely to survive other things, but when it comes down to my life vs. the good of the many, I hope I'd choose the good of the many every time.

Originally posted by Boondock78
pick a scenerio...

whatever, crashed in the andes or lost at sea or broe from the prison camp in australia and all that are there are your friends or other people, strangers, whatever...

very simple...and i know none of us could actually know unless we were in the scenerio, but take a guess.

quite simply, in that situation, would you eat another human?
only if they were already dead or would you kill them to eat them?


i'd eat a human and i would kill them to eat them if i was in that senerio. simle as that. i need to live.

you?

1st. I would check to see if all communications were up or down. Check for injuries and assist others with theirs.

2nd. Water; water is what you need to survive more so than food. Stranded on the ocean...pretty scary considering you are surrounded by water but it is deadly to drink....You can drink your urine though or wait for rain. You would also need some sort of shelter or floating device to keep you alive and safe before food even becomes a concern.

3rd. Regulating your body temperature...Hypothermia, Heat exhaustion both will kill you before hunger does.

4th. Creating and mapping out a plan...You need a plan....Leaders need to be appointed to go and search for water, land, food, help, and a way out. Others need to stay and find ways to bring up communications for help, make shelters, keep others calm and tend to the sick, injured, children, and most important keep a lookout for danger or potential help.

5th. Food....make use and regulate whatever food people might have....
I'm a trained and skilled hunter...w/o a weapon I could trap any small animal or I could easily catch a fish...I'm an excellent swimmer and diver I have no problem eating bugs, raw sea life, plants, or drinking my urine if I had to.

It is unusual and unnecessary for others to eat each other in a case of survival, only in cases like Tahoe Donner and Alive which are severe cases where people were trapped for months and years at a time.




[edit on 8-6-2007 by Tetraspace]

^^^^^^^^^^^apparently didn't read the numerous posts about this....ok, now toss out all that, assume you have exhausted all options and are in a one in a million scenerio....

libra, that must be the line, you're right and i have to say, that is very honerable thing to do while you are still alive.
that is something i can not do though. unless the group is my family, then i will put myself ahead of the good of the group.
just being honest and we are talking life or death.

Originally posted by Boondock78

that is something i can not do though. unless the group is my family, then i will put myself ahead of the good of the group.
just being honest and we are talking life or death.

Every body is somebody's family. As I stated its not morality its being a human. We are human because we can make these choices. Not trying to change your mind or any thing just pointing out What I perceive are flaws in your logic. I salute you for your honesty, and at the same time hope I never get stranded any ware near you

Originally posted by angryamerican

Every body is somebody's family. As I stated its not morality its being a human. We are human because we can make these choices. Not trying to change your mind or any thing just pointing out What I perceive are flaws in your logic. I salute you for your honesty, and at the same time hope I never get stranded any ware near you

yes, everyone is someone elses family. that makes no differene to me.
myself and mine are not going to suffer if i can help it.
we are human cause we can make rational choices when we are of sound mind and body. in those situations you are not of sound mind and body and the animal comes out. the instinct to live.

and as i stated, it is morality. just an opinion. i don't know who is right.
you say it's cause we are human but why? our morals...right?
things that we percieve as morally wrong..

for example, seems like quite a lot see it as morally wrong to kill/eat human flesh in this scenerio. i on the other hand don't think that at all.
i live by my own set of rules. i am not some anarchist out there causing trouble. i am a low key guy..i just like to do my own thing and be left alone. i just am not going to try and fool myself into thinking it is a 'wrong' thing to do when my brain is telling me i see no wrong in it.

thanks for appreciating my honesty. i catch a lot of flack for it. i try not to lie. not on the net or on real life and i always thought that was a good wuality but it seems that people, mostly in the real worl don't wnat honsety, they want to be appeased.

and yeah, probably good for one of us that we not be stranded together cause you might have to take me out to stop me from taking you out.
imagine that strain on yoru brain dude..

crazy crap to think about ain't it?

Originally posted by Boondock78

yes, everyone is someone elses family. that makes no differene to me.
myself and mine are not going to suffer if i can help it.
we are human cause we can make rational choices when we are of sound mind and body. in those situations you are not of sound mind and body and the animal comes out. the instinct to live.

The reason ATS survival forums was started was so we could educate ourselves to make it instinct rather then choice. instinct can be learned in the human animal. hence just one of the reasons we are above the animals

and as i stated, it is morality. just an opinion. i don't know who is right.
you say it's cause we are human but why? our morals...right?
things that we percieve as morally wrong..

I'll drop the morality thing because we will never agree on what is morality and what is just plane common sense.

for example, seems like quite a lot see it as morally wrong to kill/eat human flesh in this scenerio. i on the other hand don't think that at all.
i live by my own set of rules. i am not some anarchist out there causing trouble. i am a low key guy..i just like to do my own thing and be left alone. i just am not going to try and fool myself into thinking it is a 'wrong' thing to do when my brain is telling me i see no wrong in it.

As I said in a earlier post this is a tuff one with no black and white answer

thanks for appreciating my honesty. i catch a lot of flack for it. i try not to lie. not on the net or on real life and i always thought that was a good wuality but it seems that people, mostly in the real worl don't wnat honsety, they want to be appeased.

Ah the real world sucks any way

and yeah, probably good for one of us that we not be stranded together cause you might have to take me out to stop me from taking you out.
imagine that strain on yoru brain dude..

No strain my friend. the United states goverment spent alot of money and alot of years on training me not to stress in situations like that.

crazy crap to think about ain't it?

Not your usual conversation I'll grant you but its ggod for the ATS survival community to stretch our comfort bounds once and a while.