Russia announces large joint military exercise with China, Shanghai Six, page 2
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reply posted on 11-6-2007 @ 11:16 AM by Zaphod58
Because the Tibetan people are almost non-existent now after the illegal take over by China. China invaded, and later during negotiations, forced the Tibetan negotiators, who had no power from their government to sign any treaties, to sign the Seventeen Point Agreement, which gave China full control of Tibet.

How can you POSSIBLY say this is "being well treated":

Under the 1951 Seventeen Point Agreement between the People's Republic of China and representatives of the Tibetan Government, which incorporated Tibet into China, China guaranteed no alteration of Tibetan political, cultural, and religious systems and institutions. The failure of the People's Republic of China to adhere to or uphold the Seventeen Point Agreement, and the imposition of so-called democratic reform, led to the March 1959 uprising in Lhasa. On March 10, 1959, the people of Lhasa assembled together and called for the Chinese to leave Tibet, thus marking the beginning of the uprising. The Chinese crackdown was harsh. An estimated 87,000 Tibetans were killed, arrested, or deported to labor camps. and flight to exile

Since the revolt against Chinese rule in Tibet that began in 1956 and through the end of the Cultural Revolution in 1976, an estimated 1,200,000 Tibetans were killed and more than 6,000 religious sites were destroyed.
In 1959, 1960, 1964, and 1997 the International Commission of Jurists examined Chinese policy in Tibet, violations of human rights in Tibet, and the position of Tibet in international law. The International Commission of Jurists found that the People's Republic of China had committed `acts of genocide . . . in Tibet in an attempt to destroy the Tibetans as a religious group' and that Tibet was at least `a de facto state' prior to 1951.

www.globalsecurity.org...


reply posted on 11-6-2007 @ 11:33 AM by Zaphod58
No, I'm not saying that your pictures weren't of Tibettans, but EVERY SOURCE I've found INCLUDING the UN talk about what's happened in Tibet. Are you saying that they're all misleading people? China is really a very nice place and has NEVER done anything terrible, and we're all being misled about it? If that's the case then those UN resolutions are fake, and the media is lying to us to make us feel sympathy.

More on the takeover:

With China’s seizure of Tibet’s eastern and northern regions, the devastation of Tibet’s inadequate army, the invasion of many more Chinese soldiers into central Tibet, and with no major foreign aid or intervention, the long-time peaceful country of Tibet had no other choice but to negotiate with their malicious Communist neighbor. In April of 1951, a five-man team of Tibetan representatives traveled to China’s capital to re-open negotiations. These officials were instructed to explain Tibet’s beliefs and to hear out China’s opinions. However, this negotiation team was specifically "not given the plenipotentiary authority to conclude an agreement," ("Invasion and Illegal..," 3) and was told to submit any significant subjects to the Tibetan Government. ("Invasion and Illegal..," 3).

The negotiations began in late April. They began with a series of rejected proposals put forth by China, which caused the communist nation great frustration. It could easily defeat its weaker neighbor, and would not stand for this refusal. China firmly explained that the then present proposal was final. During this, the Tibetan officials were verbally offended, intimidated with violent threats and almost literally held captive. All negotiations were ended, and the Tibetan officials were restricted from referring with their government on the situation, opposite to what Chin has alleged. The delegation was bestowed with the impossible task of deciding whether to agree to the present arrangement on its own, or face the burden of sentencing its capital, Lhasa, to Chinese invasion. ("Invasion and Illegal..," 3).

The five-member team of Tibetan officials finally cracked under the tremendous strain, and signed the "Agreement of the Central People’s Government and the Local Government of Tibet on Measures for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet." However, because the representatives were specifically withheld the power to make any major decisions alone, their authorization of the agreement was unofficial and did not bind either His Holiness or Tibet’s government. The Tibetan officials cautioned the Chinese of this fact, but it had no effect. The knowledge that the signing was unofficial was no problem to China. The PRC continued on with the ceremonial signing and revealed to the world that the "Peaceful Liberation of Tibet" was successful with the conclusion of a treaty between both parties. The main terms of the seventeen-section contract allowed the Chinese military forces to occupy Tibet and enabled the PRC to control Tibet’s foreign dealings. However, the agreement also assured that the present Tibetan Government would remain and Tibet would have independence both religiously and politically. ("Invasion and Illegal..," 3-4).

On May 27, 1951, what is now called the "Seventeen-Point Agreement" was announced in full on Radio Beijing. Amazingly enough, this was the first point in time that both the Tibetan Government and its leader, the Dalai Lama, learned of this revolutionary agreement. ("Invasion and Illegal..," 4).

www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us...

It's entirely possible to see a beautiful peaceful place now, because the takeover was almost 50 years ago. In that time, with brutal crackdowns, the people ARE going to become much more peaceful, and things will change drastically.

Tibet, now officially the Tibet Autonomous Region, makes up nearly one fifth of China’s total area, yet the people of Tibet constitute "only a fraction of China’s six percent minority population." ("Chinese Invasion," 1). Even in their own country, the people of Tibet are being made a minority. Because of support by the Chinese Government for Chinese Han, China’s largest race, to move to the region of Tibet, there is now only one Tibetan to every ten Han. ("Chinese Invasion," 1). The PRC is now filling Tibet with thousands of Chinese businessman and workers, and is investing billions of yuan in order to improve Tibet’s poor economy.

www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us...

[edit on 6/11/2007 by Zaphod58]


reply posted on 11-6-2007 @ 02:54 PM by xmotex
While I'm not particularly impressed by Chna's claim to Tibet, it's basically a case of an oppressive state socialist regime overthrowing an oppressive feudal theocracy. Tibet was not exactly a paradise before the Chinese showed up.

All apologies to the current Dali Llama, who I'm sure is a decent sort, but priestly misrule was no better for Tibet than the Communists, indeed probably much worse. Feudal regimes generally don't have a great deal of respect for human rights, and that's exactly what Tibet was.

Friendly Feudalism

Until 1959, when the Dalai Lama last presided over Tibet, most of the arable land was still organized into manorial estates worked by serfs. Even a writer sympathetic to the old order allows that “a great deal of real estate belonged to the monasteries, and most of them amassed great riches.” Much of the wealth was accumulated “through active participation in trade, commerce, and money lending.”4 Drepung monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, with its 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 great pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen. The wealth of the monasteries rested in the hands of small numbers of high-ranking lamas. Most ordinary monks lived modestly and had no direct access to great wealth. The Dalai Lama himself “lived richly in the 1000-room, 14-story Potala Palace,” and admits to having owned slaves during his reign.5

Secular leaders also did well. A notable example was the commander-in-chief of the Tibetan army, who owned 4,000 square kilometers of land and 3,500 serfs. He also was a member of the Dalai Lama’s lay Cabinet.7 Old Tibet has been misrepresented by some of its Western admirers as “a nation that required no police force because its people voluntarily observed the laws of karma.“8 In fact. it had a professional army, albeit a small one, that served as a gendarmerie for the landlords to keep order and hunt down runaway serfs.

Young Tibetan boys were regularly taken from their families and brought into the monasteries to be trained as monks. Once there, they became bonded for life. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was common for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeated rape, beginning at age nine.9 The monastic estates also conscripted impoverished peasant children for lifelong servitude as domestics, dance performers, and soldiers.


...

In the Dalai Lama’s Tibet, torture and mutilation—including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation—were favored punishments inflicted upon runaway serfs and thieves. Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use.



reply posted on 11-6-2007 @ 05:57 PM by StellarX
Originally posted by Dallas
Russia and China have about the same 'guns' and ambitions. Being neighbors why hate each other when there's of-so-much to gain from the west in SALES be-it oil (R) or Goods (C).


Russia and China have been allied since the late 1970's and the 'animosity' since then have been almost entirely faked for your consumption.

China's smart and low keyed as Russia's been since /86. Russia now seems to feel their oil reserves recently found allows them to be non-subjective to the USA, and their right.


Russia has never in my opinion lost the dominant strategic position they gained i the late 70's when they started operating their new generation of strategic weaponry. That time corresponds well with the start of the decline of the USD and the US control over their vital interest.

China and Russia are a very formidable partnership not to be taken lightly. This USA/Europe missile defence - opposition by Putin says alot.


It sure does and in my opinion those missile defenses might very well still be built once again serving as 'proof' of American superiority for anyone who wants to believe. The resistance Putin is offering is resistance that must be be offered and in my opinion part of a grand deception strategy.

Perhaps a placido-reason to re-introduce communism character withing Putin's turf and free him from being retired next year under Yeltsin's Presidential limitation rule?

Dallas


I think Putin understands his place in this grand game and will step down at the appointed time.

Stellar


reply posted on 11-6-2007 @ 06:06 PM by gs001
Actually, Tibet formally became a part of China in
1720 in Qing dynasty. NOT by Communist in 1950!!!
before 1720, Tibet had long been a client state of China.
Taiwan became a part of China much earlyer than that.
depts.washington.edu...
USA government always demonize regime which they don't like.
You Americans should use you own brain to think.
Of course the best way to know the fact is to be there
and see by you own eyes. so that some laughable fantasys such
as "the Tibetan people are almost non-existent now after the
illegal take over by China" will be wiped off from you mind.
OK?


reply posted on 11-6-2007 @ 07:52 PM by Muaddib
Originally posted by marg6043
.................
Who is at fault? For forcing alliances between nations.

Can you blame them?


Marg, i don't think you have payed attention to many of the threatds with excerpts and links to what former Russian military defectors have to say about this.

This is part of the master plan by the Communist regimes to topple the west, and mostly the U.S., and for these countries, mainly China and Russia to take control of not only the world economy, but being the superpower replacements of the U.S.

This is not good news in the least. Some will try to claim this is paranoia, but for over 2 decades the Russian military defectors have been able to predict 99% what these countries, and mainly Russia, would do.

Putin is once again calling for a new Global Economy, want to guess who will be in charge of that economy?...

Russia's Putin Calls for WTO Alternative
June 10, 2007 - 2:07pm

By ALEX NICHOLSON
AP Business Writer

ST. PETERSBURG, Russia (AP) - Russian President Vladimir Putin on Sunday criticized international economic institutions for protecting the interests of a select few developed countries and called for a new global economic order that would give rapidly growing developing economies a bigger role.

"The world is indeed changing before our eyes. Countries that yesterday seemed hopelessly behind are today the fastest growing economies of the world," Putin told a gathering of business leaders and government officials at an economic forum in Russia's second-largest city of St. Petersburg.

www.wtop.com...

You don't seem to understand the full scope of what has been going on. This is not happening because of the U.S., but because China and Russia have made pacts to help bring down the current world economy and put China and Russia, among some others, at the forefront of the "new global economy".


[edit on 11-6-2007 by Muaddib]


reply posted on 11-6-2007 @ 08:17 PM by Muaddib
Originally posted by gs001
......................
USA government always demonize regime which they don't like.
You Americans should use you own brain to think.
Of course the best way to know the fact is to be there
and see by you own eyes. so that some laughable fantasys such
as "the Tibetan people are almost non-existent now after the
illegal take over by China" will be wiped off from you mind.
OK?


Perhaps that member exagerated, but I think I understand what he was trying to say.

BTW, the fact that most Chinese people don't have "free" access to the internet, and not being able to post in certain sites, such as blogs and foreign forums that criticize China doesn't help your case.

It tells me either you are living outside of China or you work for the Chinese government.

China actively promotes the internet for economic use and to spread the communist government's views.
But it has worked hard to muzzle the web as a forum for free information and discussion.

One of the ways it does this is by blocking access to foreign websites such as Google by what has been called the Great Red Firewall.

news.bbc.co.uk...

We have seen how much the Chinese government has changed in it's tactics...

China tries to gag climbers who saw Tibet killings
By Leonard Doyle, Foreign Editor
Published: 11 October 2006

Chinese diplomats in the Nepalese capital of Kathmandu are tracking down and trying to silence hundreds of Western climbers and Sherpas who witnessed the killing of Tibetan refugees on the Nangpa La mountain pass last week.

This ominous development comes as fears grow for the safety of a group of Tibetan children, aged between six and 10, who were marched away after at least two refugees including a nun, were shot dead.

news.independent.co.uk...

Knowing that Chinese people can still be executed in large numbers, the number of Chinese we know are being executed each year is by conservative numbers up to 10,000, and the Chinese executions are a secret.

Being too pro-democratic, belonging to certain religious groups, or even because you have an organ which a rich person somewher ein the world needs are some of the reasons people get executed in China....if the Chinese government is like this to it's own people...imagine how they are with the Tibetans.

Here is a video which shows what has happened to some of those people who were executed for crimes they didn't commit, and it talks about the execution buses and even shows parts of executions and torture which happens in China.

WARNING, PARTS OF THE VIDEO SHOWS EXECUTIONS, BEATINGS AND OTHER FORMS OF VIOLENCE!!!

news.sky.com...


[edit on 11-6-2007 by Muaddib]



reply posted on 11-6-2007 @ 08:43 PM by ThePieMaN
Originally posted by Muaddib
How about instead of derailing the thread, you either stay on topic or leave to spread your claims and lies somewhere else?...


You are sitting there telling the man that lives in China how he should feel about his country, and talking about Master plans and Im derailing the thread? There are many people living in China that are thoroughly contented with their country communist or not. Many of the worlds smartest people come from China so things aren't all that bad for some, and they are doing things right if they are becoming so powerful and even overtaking us. The fact that we are squandering billions while they are making it, shouldn't be held against the chinese or the Russians.

Every country that u attack is doing well without US help as well as abandoning us (Venezuela, Iran, China, Russia) and the countries that can only survive by leeching off the USA you give nothing but high praises to. Strange and you allude away that no conspiracies to stab us in the back exist, even though the proof is right there in front of you.

Russia and China are not out to get us...they won't have to. They are waiting it out just like we did for the USSR to topple without firing a shot.


Up until Bushie boy started going on a rampage, China was perfectsly content with investing their monies into normal investments, its only been in the past couple of years they felt the need to be putting record amounts into their defense budget
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