And some deny that it was unavoidable or that it could not have been prevented. At least in part.

This is really where the subject of ransoms come in, the British have never been big on financial bargaining with any enemy. Thatcher was a prime example of this. The Zionists though who considered Judiasm as a race, it would have been assumed would be willing to assist in saving at least some jews. That they set a condition of Palestine and when it was not met knowingly allowing those Jews to die implies a greater degree of inhumanity than to refuse any negotiations as the British did. Or at least this is how some Jewish and Muslim groups view it, and many see such actions as an attempt to impose a Jewish majority control in palestine.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
The Zionists though who considered Judiasm as a race

and it is these who are doing 'their race' vastly more harm than good....vastly, exponentially more harm even

.....although there are some who are not shameists, are you ever going to stand up ? ever ? what will it take ? apathy is quite damaging to yourself, realize that.....apathy is actually a child of sloth, and one of the seven.....you are where you are because you are supposed to be there - yes, i'm talking to you (not you, you, lol)......not choosing is a choice, remember that

lol, i'm here with my own agenda - if you didn't understand this, it wasn't aimed at you or meant for you...just consider me a retard and let it go

Originally posted by hikix
What exactly is a Holocaust denier? Do they believe that nothing happened at all. There is plenty of video and pictures to document that there were concentration camps. Some of my friends Grandfathers are Holocaust survivors.

Maybe 6 million is an exaggeration, maybe it was one million, or 500,000. Whatever the number is ALOT of people went through hell and died during that time.

Does a Holocaust denier believe that it never happened at all or that it is an exaggeration.... and are any of you guys Holocaust deniers yourselves?

Deniers usually questions the numbers however others plainly Deny the existence that it ever happened. However 6 millions is only the number of Jews that were killed during the Nazi Regime over 5 million Homosexuals, Handicapped, Mentally challenged, and Gypsy's were also killed.

(Trying to be as politically correct as possible.)

However my family fought in WWII and half of my step dads family got out the other half were in rebellious organizations in Belgium.

OK, I'm going to Necro this, and add my 2 cents on things. Did the holocaust happen, I would say yes. My Grandfather was a German soldier in WWII and witnessed some camps during his time. As far as how many people were exterminated, well, you can go by your own numbers or what has been "documented". Irregardless, people died because of it.

I read somewhere else about a "Zionist Mafia" in some pretty high and powerful positions (such as government) around the world trying to make things better for Israel one way or another and didnt care who or what they stepped on to get it accomplished. In the piece I read, they linked the war in Afghanistan and Iraq to it.

And yes, I do believe that if you question anything to do with Israel or the holocaust, you are labeled as an anti-semite.

Just my 2 coppers

i think we are a little off here. Holocost denialist is generally being used to refer right now to people such as Ahmadinejad. And it does not resemble your ideas of "someone who denies jews were killed in germany or disputes the count". When he talks about the "Myth of the Holocost" what he is talking about is the idea that palestinians must pay for the atrocities perpetrated upon jews by europeans. When he denies Isreals "right to existence" he has said in his speaches to his people and to others that what he is denying is isreals right to take land given to them by europeans and americans that belongs to palestinians. He has even avowed that if the jewish state were to be established in europe or north america or alaska or something, the arabs would have no problem with it. It is just that theft and murder and ethnic cleansing of palestinians is no good way to make up for a holocust.

he never said the holocost did not take place

He never said all jews should die.

Originally posted by pexx421
i think we are a little off here. Holocost denialist is generally being used to refer right now to people such as Ahmadinejad. And it does not resemble your ideas of "someone who denies jews were killed in germany or disputes the count". When he talks about the "Myth of the Holocost" what he is talking about is the idea that palestinians must pay for the atrocities perpetrated upon jews by europeans. When he denies Isreals "right to existence" he has said in his speaches to his people and to others that what he is denying is isreals right to take land given to them by europeans and americans that belongs to palestinians. He has even avowed that if the jewish state were to be established in europe or north america or alaska or something, the arabs would have no problem with it. It is just that theft and murder and ethnic cleansing of palestinians is no good way to make up for a holocust.

he never said the holocost did not take place

He never said all jews should die.

Someone lied to you.

Here are quotes pulled from different press conferences given by Ahmadinejad:

"They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets," Ahmadinejad said in a speech to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan, according to a report on Wednesday from Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting.

"The West has given more significance to the myth of the genocide of the Jews, even more significant than God, religion, and the prophets," he said. "(It) deals very severely with those who deny this myth but does not do anything to those who deny God, religion, and the prophet."

Ahmadinejad sparked widespread international condemnation in October when he called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

I believe these quotes are direct contradictions to your statements.

~S

Originally posted by seagull
Allow me to attempt to explain...

A Holocaust Denier in the classic sense is one who claims, without validity I might add, that the Holocaust either never took place, or yes some were killed in the camps, but no where near as many as is said in the histories. Deniers have, almost exclusively, an agenda behind their denial. It is hatred of Jews, or Israel, usually both, though oddly enough not always. Holocaust denial got its start shortly after WWII as an attempt to begin the rehabilitation of Adolph Hitler. It's basically carrying on the myths of global domination by the Jews.

It's the reasoning behind that research that gives rise to the accusations of antisemetism against the researchers. Not the research itself.

For a more indepth look at the history of denial, especially in America, look up the following folks: Austin App. Arthur Butz. Richard Verrall aka Richard Harwood. Willis Carto. Paul Rassinier. Harry Elmer Barnes. Robert Faurisson. Ditleib Felderer. Ernst Zundel. Bradley Smith. Tom Metzger. David Duke. There are others but these should get you started. Whether you believe them or not is, of course, up to you. I'd say enjoy the reading, but its disturbing reading.

How do you know what motivates some of these people? Unless you are a mind reader, you are just assuming what their motivation might be. This seems to be an attempt to demonize them for having questions.

So, if that is your theory, what about reputable Jewish scholars and historians that question, and have even contradicted the official version of events.

It seems to me you might need to do a little more research on the subject, and to make it easier for you to get started, I'll help you out with the following information. Unlike a lot of people, I try to keep an open mind and read and study until I have enough information to be able to make an informed opinion.

Although I agree that the actions taken in WWII, or any war are terrible, for some reason most of the discussion about WWII seem to focus on the terrible toll taken on the Jewish people almost exclusively, to the point that nothing about the accepted version can be questioned without garnering the accusation of anti-Semite.

In some European countries, laws have been passed that actually make it a crime to even question anything about it, even though history doesn't seem to support the official version of what happened. WHY?

You don't have to be what is commonly considered to be a "Holocaust Denier" though, to see that something is seriously wrong with the official story that is being taught to our children and the general public. I have done some research on the subject, and found the following interesting information. I am not trying to deny that some terrible things happened during the war, or any war, but why are we putting one group of people at the forefront, when many people were killed, or had their lives ruined as well?

We all owe it to ourselves to question everything we are told, and do some research instead of blindly accepting the official party line, otherwise, we are doomed to continue down the same path that led us to WWI, WWII and all the other wars humans have participated in down through our recent history.

Continued below due to space limitations

Originally posted by seagull
Allow me to attempt to explain...


Continued from above,
Some of the information I found, with links.

What is "Holocaust Denial"? by Barbara Kulaszka

Six Million?

Should someone be considered a "Holocaust denier" because he does not believe – as Matas and many others insist – that six million Jews were killed during World War II? This figure was cited by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-1946. It found that "the policy pursued [by the German government] resulted in the killing of six million Jews, of which four million were killed in the extermination institutions." [2] Yet if that is so, then several of the most prominent Holocaust historians could be regarded as "deniers." Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the standard reference work, The Destruction of the European Jews, does not accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution, likewise did not accept the six million figure. He estimated the figure of Jewish wartime dead might be as high as 4.6 million, but admitted that this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable information.

Human Soap?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that the Nazis did not make soap from the corpses of murdered Jews? After considering the evidence – including an actual bar of soap supplied by the Soviets – the Nuremberg Tribunal declared in its Judgment that "in some instances attempts were made to utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial manufacture of soap." [3] In 1990, though, Israel's official Yad Vashem Holocaust center “rewrote history" by admitting that the soap story was not true. "Historians have concluded that soap was not made from human fat. When so many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give them something to use against the truth?," said Yad Vashem official Shmuel Krakowski. [4]

Auschwitz So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Surely a claim that most Auschwitz inmates died from disease and not systematic extermination in gas chambers would be "denial." But perhaps not. Jewish historian Arno J. Mayer, a Princeton University professor, wrote in his 1988 study Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The 'Final Solution' in History: “…From 1942 to 1945, certainly at Auschwitz , but probably overall, more Jews were killed by so-called 'natural' causes than by 'unnatural' ones." [9] Even estimates of the number of people who died at Auschwitz – allegedly the main extermination center – are no longer clear cut. At the postwar Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans exterminated four million people at Auschwitz. [10] Until 1990, a memorial plaque at Auschwitz read: "Four Million People Suffered and Died Here at the Hands of the Nazi Murderers Between the Years 1940 and 1945." [11] Is it "Holocaust denial" to dispute these four million deaths? Not today. In July 1990, the Polish government's Auschwitz State Museum, along with Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, conceded that the four million figure was a gross exaggeration, and references to it were accordingly removed from the Auschwitz monument. Israeli and Polish officials announced a tentative revised toll of 1.1 million Auschwitz dead. [12] In 1993, French Holocaust researcher Jean-Claude Pressac, in a much-discussed book about Auschwitz, estimated that altogether about 775,000 died there during the war years. [13] Professor Mayer acknowledges that the question of how many really died in Auschwitz remains open.

Continued.......

www.holocaustdenialvideos.com

I was a Holohoax believer until I watched these. I wasnt convinced from these alone, but it opened my eyes and made me research what the "Deniers" said.

All you have to do is read one 'Tale' after another and you can see how proposterous the legend is as it is presented; when accounts from people who were at the same camp, at the same time contradict each other.

The fact that an "Established Historical Fact" cant be questioned in any capacity should be an indication enough that its a house of cards waiting to fall. In the next decade, when all the "Survivors" die from old age. and there is no first-hand-sob-stories about skin lampshades or soap made from human fat (BOTH OF WHICH ARE ADMITTED TO BE FALSE BY YAD VASHEM!!!!) people wont give in to emotion, as opposed to logic any more.



[edit on 24-2-2009 by Lonewolf_NS]

man that entire war was a holocaust some 50 to60 million people died .

The way I see it there is no doubt that Jews were imprisoned , tortured , used as slave labor , died of disease due to the deplorable conditions in the camps and executed on mass . As for 6 mil , seems kinda high, killing that many people would require the German military allocate resources at a time while fighting a war on multiple fronts .

did six million die , I really don't care argue it , Perhaps 6 mil really did died perhaps not . But if some one chooses to have the opinion that not nearly 6 mil did died their intituled to that belief . Sending people to jail for Holocaust denial is wrong , as long a they aren't promoting violence

" if you are not for freedom speech for people you despise than your not for freedom of speech period" norm chomsky

[edit on 27-2-2009 by OpusMarkII]

This is an interesting thread because I am both jewish and American. I think that if someone says that the holocaust didn't happen, or the it was not to the extent documented by the Nazi - yes, the Nazis provided much of the documentation to help establish the 6 million number, Germans are meticulous record keepers - then they have the right to their ignorant uneducated opinion.

Under the First Amendment to the US Constitution, it is unpopular speach, offensive speach that is protected because sometimes, it helps to move our knowledge forward, or helps cause debate on important issues.

So I think that the German Law that makes it a crime to deny the holocaust is kinda extreme. Its what happens when you live in a socialist state. They tell you what to think.

The New York Post called Obama a monkey. What happened? nothing! Maybe a few less black people bought that paper. You had a few demonstrations, and thats it.

Can you imagine going to prison for thinking something or saying something? Really tells you a lot about Europe.

Its good to be an American, even if I have to listen to 'tards to can say something as stupid as one of the most well documented events in modern history didn't happen.

May be there was no Berlin Wall, may be there was no passenger ship called the Titanic. Whatever.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i would just like to state for the record that 10 million people died during the holocaust, that's the official number. 6 million jews died, but 4 million other people died alongside them.


and a holocaust denier is someone who can't take accept history

wrong. first, that "6 million jews" number has been downgraded by the "jews" themselves. i suggest you research the numbers by religion, geographical location, country, race, sexual orientation, handicap, and then maybe think laterally for a minute to decide where the overlaps lie.

I don't "deny" the holocaust. It really happened. Political dissenters, homosexuals, gypsies and Jews died in enclosed, heavily guarded camps.

That said, the number of Jewish deaths has been grossly exaggerated to great political effect. The holocaust was a tragedy and thank heavens America stepped in and defeated Nazi Germany.

Ever since then, though, the Holocaust myth has been one of the best tools for keeping those naturally predisposed to guilt and too sensitive to feminine ideas of "justice" in line. In that regard, it is among the most useful of myths.