What is a Holocost Denier?, page 1
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reply posted on 4-6-2007 @ 11:20 PM by Rasputin13
I kind of agree with what's been said so far. If you question any part of the official version of the Holocaust, you are labeled by many as a "Holocaust Denier" and even antisemetic. I personally believe in most of the official story. But whether or not it was 6 million who were killed, or 3 million or even 12 million shouldn't really matter. It was a horrible and evil event that we must never forget and never allow to happen again. Sadly, in some cases we have allowed it to happen again (in different forms) and it is happening right now in Sudan.

These days, if you question any part of the Global Warming story, you are considered a "Global Warming denier". And it has actually been said by some that being a Global Warming denier is worse than being a Holocaust denier, if you can believe that!!! And the situation as far as denial is virtually the same. Whether you question man's role in Global Warming, the data involved, the projections made, or anything at all regarding the subject, you are labeled a "denier" just as you would for questioning any part of the official Holocaust story.

What it all comes down to is politics. It's a game that people play, and they play it with a lot of issues. If you want to do something to improve social security, then you're accused of wanting to "privatise" it. If you're pro-choice then you're "pro-abortion". These types of labels are used in an attempt to undermine the other side, or anyone who questions a certain groups official stance on an important issue. And quite frankly, in most cases, it is disgraceful. It discourages honest debate and it does nothing to help the issue at hand. People should be able to question things, as long as they do it in a respectful and honest manner. You should be able to question the official death estimate of the Holocaust without being labeled a denier. You should be able to question man's involvement in global warming, and whether or not it is just a natural earth cycle, without being labeled a denier. And the same goes for all the other important issues out there. We of all people here at ATS should understand that. It's our goal here to deny ignorance. But when we start calling people "deniers" just because they are questioning a certain version of events or certain beliefs, we are only hurting our cause.



reply posted on 5-6-2007 @ 02:55 PM by seagull
Allow me to attempt to explain...

A Holocaust Denier in the classic sense is one who claims, without validity I might add, that the Holocaust either never took place, or yes some were killed in the camps, but no where near as many as is said in the histories. Deniers have, almost exclusively, an agenda behind their denial. It is hatred of Jews, or Israel, usually both, though oddly enough not always. Holocaust denial got its start shortly after WWII as an attempt to begin the rehabilitation of Adolph Hitler. It's basically carrying on the myths of global domination by the Jews.

The denial goes something like this: Global Jewry in an attempt to garner support for the nascent state of Israel used the myth of the Holocaust to extort monies from Germany, and to a lesser extent, the rest of the world by using their supposed guilt as a weapon.

It is sometimes worded differently, but generally the story is the same.

There is nothing innately wrong with questioning the numbers of the dead, killed during the Holocaust. There is an entire industry built around legitimate research into that very thing. It's the reasoning behind that research that gives rise to the accusations of antisemetism against the researchers. Not the research itself.

Most of the research into the Holocaust is indeed legitimate research done to increase our knowledge of a horrible event in world history. From knowledge comes understanding.

For a more indepth look at the history of denial, especially in America, look up the following folks:

Austin App. Arthur Butz. Richard Verrall aka Richard Harwood. Willis Carto. Paul Rassinier. Harry Elmer Barnes. Robert Faurisson. Ditleib Felderer. Ernst Zundel. Bradley Smith. Tom Metzger. David Duke.

There are others but these should get you started. Whether you believe them or not is, of course, up to you. I'd say enjoy the reading, but its disturbing reading.


reply posted on 5-6-2007 @ 11:34 PM by Rasputin13
Originally posted by PONCE
The real Holocaust (with a capital H) what the 11 millions Germans killed AFTER the war or the 21 millions Russians........ I wonder if they would like to set up a holocaust memorial in every American city.

And that's something that I don't understand.....we setup this memorials for the few foreigners who were killed by a foreign army in a foreign land?

'Don't worry about the US, we control them and they know it".....Sharon to Perez.


Okay... here we have it. This guy right here is an example of a HOLOCAUST DENIER.

Anyway, Ponce, would you care to explain the "11 millions Germans killed AFTER the war"? Are you alleging that the US and its allies simply murdered and disposed of 11 million Germans? Or maybe we just starved 11 million Germans to death through our "horrible" Marshall Plan? God, I can't wait to hear this one.

And where did you come up with 21 million Russians killed after the war? I've read in many sources that Stalin, during the length of his reign, was responsible for the death of 20 million of his citizens. Is that what you're referring to? If so, or even if not, what does that have to do with the Holocaust? Discussing the Holocaust, or Holocaust deniers, doesn't mean that the 6 million Jews killed is the only time in history that genocide occurred. Obviously there have been millions and millions killed throughout history for various reasons. Ever hear of the Khmer Rouge?

I just fail to grasp where or how you came up with these figures, as well as what the heck they have to do with our discussion. Maybe you need to start your own thread on this subject before you hijack this one.


reply posted on 14-6-2007 @ 10:52 PM by Phil123
I don't know why we just don't just get some scientific evidence either way. If millions of Jews were killed, buried, dug up, cremated and the ash buried again then there will have been massive ground disturbance, the disturbance could still easily be seen today by using thermal imaging down to a good depth on the camp areas. One thing I will say is the the victors write history, that needs to be remembered. Also the Jews have claimed much bigger figures in the past which have gone down over the years, they also claimed 6 million Jews died after WW1, the 6 million number is very important to the Jewish faith as the old testament says something along the lines that they can't return to their homeland (Israel) until 6 million Jew's go by the sword. There is quite a lot of none mainstream evidence against the Holocaust but mainstream scientists can't be seen to have anything to do with investigating the holocaust as they are instantly branded anti-Semites, infact in some countries if they didn't come up with the 'right' results they could be sent to prison for being deniers. Under these conditions it can never be proven either way as one side can claim what they want and the other side can't claim anything even if they have evidence supporting it. The term holocaust denier should be dropped and it shouldn't be illegal as it is in some countries, having a different view on history to someone else shouldn't be a crime, it also makes people believe the holocaust could be a lie, otherwise why would people be locked up for denying it.


reply posted on 19-6-2007 @ 12:25 PM by Jazzerman
One thing I have always said about the Nazi’s is that they were very good at documentation and recordkeeping, and by this have essentially lent a huge blow to those that deny the Holocaust happened. There are literally thousands upon thousands of declassified documents from the concentration camps, intercepted Nazi communication letters, etc. that prove there were very near 6 million Jewish peoples killed by the Nazi’s from about 1939 to 1945 (particularly in Poland). Most of those documents are available to the public in the form of the Bad Arolsen Archives Bad Arolsen, the OSS documents OSS, and many others including such things as the “Hofle Telegram” pictured and translated here: Hofle Telegram. Those that deny the Holocaust also directly deny the records of extermination of the Nazi’s themselves, and sometimes refuse to acknowledge the tremendous deaths of Jews, Romany’s, etc. that were put into Ghettos before being shipped of to the camps. There were also the Einsatzgruppen ( Einsatzgruppen History ), which were a special task force appointed by the Nazi regime, if you will, whose primary objective according to SS General, Erich von dem Bach, “was the annihilation of Jews, Gypsies, and Political Commissars”. These Einsatzgruppen memebers would essentially do just that, and were heavily prevalent before the outbreak of WWII. Their murders probably account for another unrepresented number of Jewish people that suffered at the hands of the Nazi’s. There are thousands of pictures taken by SS officers and Nazi officials showing the horrific scenes in the camps and ghettos, and clearly show Jewish people being experimented on and tortured. There is a fine line that they seem to ride between what the Nazi’s were directly and indirectly responsible for. In a way it’s like saying that one cannot be held accountable for the death of a group of people just because they starved to death, but that those in power never offered or gave them food to combat their starvation

The Jewish were, however, not the only people to have suffered under the Nazi regime; there were substantial casualties to the Romany (Gypsy) population, Serb population, Homosexuals, and Political factions to name a few. In fact, conservative death toll estimates from WWII are anywhere from 55,000,000 to 72,000,000 losses…that figure includes Jewish losses, Allied losses, Russian losses, Axis losses, etc. Of those it is estimated that around 18 million were sent to Extermination Camps and between 5 and 11 million were actually killed. So, let’s take the low end of that figure (5 million) and say that is exactly how many perished in the Nazi camps during WWII including the Romany population and others. Now, take the total people that also perished in the ghettos, or who were directly murdered by SS officers before their deportation, or met their end from economic sanctions against Jewish peoples during this timeframe and it is not hard to see how current estimates believe so many Jewish people met their end under the Nazi’s. It is not, in my humble opinion, hard to believe that there were 6,000,000 people identifying themselves as Jewish killed during this time period when you take into account all the evidence supporting (from the Nazi records themselves) such a death toll.

[edit on 19-6-2007 by Jazzerman]


reply posted on 19-6-2007 @ 12:51 PM by golddragnet
There are people who deny the Vaticans proven involvement in the genocide of 800,000 people in Croatia during WW2.

www.srpska-mreza.com...

www.fantompowa.net...

www.prweb.com...

www.liberalslikechrist.org...

After the war the Vatican hid Pavelic before he moved on to Argentina

Cardinal Stepinac was arrested and held as a war criminal after the war. In 1998 Pope John Paul II beatified Stepinac, the convicted war criminal

[edit on 19-6-2007 by golddragnet]
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