Ive read it a thousand times or more. People talk about the gangs and the criminals in the city. Sure there are these individuals in the city. But there in the country to. Criminals are every ware. In a mostly abandoned city these individuals like every body else will have to leave or starve. hence why I erg to find a safe house and wate til things settle down and use the booty that is in the city. then once the population has thinned a little then venture out to your chosen BOL.

Use dark grey, dark brown or Dark green rather than black. Black actually stands out quite well in 99% of surroundings and lightning conditions. If everything is black all darker colors will look black.

Even standard woodland camo is better than black in urban settings.

[edit on 10-7-2008 by northwolf]

In my scenario, going to the city would be utter suicide, as it is the land mass and contains all of the ground routes separating 8 million people from the continental US. I'm speaking of New York City. The scenario is a bottleneck par excellence. 8 million people trying to leave through an area of roughly 35 sq. miles, plus the 8 million people in the City. Taking into account the fact that there are about 15 TOTAL crossings to get one from Long Island to the mainland, most of which go through Manhattan itself, and that these are, on average, among the most delayed and congested roadways in the world, it is truly nightmarish to picture a panicked evacuation. Average US population density in 2000 was 80/sq. mile, here it is 5,740. There would be no hiding or disappearing. Personally in sit x I would head out on the island and try to commandeer a boat to get back to the mainland.

I think people need to realize that infrastructure in a city would break down VERY quickly, accelerated manifold by a panicked exodus. There would be no one to collect the most recent round of garbage, the sewage systems would fail, power plants would cease output, gas pipes could easily leak and combust, food stores would dry up quickly, forget produce unless you plan on gardening a rooftop (direct sunlight all day, extreme winds, quite a hike up the stairs), the number of subdisasters (flooding, leaks, fires, structural failures, etc.) would increase daily for some time. If you can get out, do. Period.

Now back on topic. As mentioned earlier you are faced with underground, surface, and multi-story environments. I think one would want to pick an intact building with as few entry/exit spots as possible, and barricade the surrounding street intersections. Again as previously mentioned, the first floor should serve only as an entrance/exit, with as many routes to the upper floors barricaded or destroyed as possible. Multiple concealed escape points are ideal, a well-planned, drilled, and maintained escape route to a secure rendezvous point are again ideal. However, I think the greatest efforts should be make to "head for the hills" at the earliest possible convenience. Most cities have direct highway access and PLENTY of means of improvising transportation. Stick it out as long as it is the best option, leave as soon as you can.

Regarding battling dogs, I think it's worth mentioning that they are extremely limited in the range of their most dangerous weapons - their teeth and claws. A human can land a kick 4 feet away, a dog must charge right up to you to attack. In doing so they deliver themselves to you, especially in a jumping or rearing attack. This is the perfect time to deliver a blow, if your timing is right. I'll also say that I believe the threat of dogs is being exaggerated for the simple reason that most dogs will be left either indoors or in a fenced yard, trapped, and subsequently starve.

Thank you for bringing me out of hibernation. *~

I have often asked people, while discussing a survival situation, if they have any idea how far the have to go in order to avoid civilization. By that I mean, There are so many possibilities for survival in, or near any heavily urbanized area. For example, I live relatively close to NYC. I would have to drive into the heart of PA, at least, before I would even have to think about roughing it. Even with something of a mass migration, the possibilities ore almost endless, if you use your imagination.

People who think they can survive safely in a city with their families should look aty places like Gaza, Belgrade,Leningrad, Stalingrad to see how quickly things can turn nasty. and they should also remember how quick LA turned nasty after the Rondey King affair and the big power out in NY a few years ago. We must also not forget that during 911 in NYC some people still took the opportunity to steal and loot parts of Manhattan.

I honestly believe that people with familes who live in cities who think they can survive are just making excuses for themselves, a fit young man may get by for a few months, a family will not.

In reply to Citizen Smith re Dogs and the subsequent reply "CS and a shovel" CS spray doesnt work on dogs so never try it A CO2 Fire extinguisher however is, pardon the pun "the dogs danglies"

Rgds

Originally posted by Northern Raider
I honestly believe that people with familes who live in cities who think they can survive are just making excuses for themselves, a fit young man may get by for a few months, a family will not.

Exactly my thoughts. I would recommend living in the middle of nowhere on a farm living off the land for as much as possible. Arm yourself with a decent winchester and riot gun and sufficient ammo to protect your family & proceeds. Potatos, tomatos, unions, lettuce, grain, zukini, melon and other fruits, maybe almonds and olives etc etc. Most are easy to grow.

Then about 20-30 chickens, rabbits, pigs, sheep, maybe one cow and a few dogs.

A well or river closeby, some wind and solar for electricity and you are all set. Tough? Maybe. Impossible? Certrianly not. Especially if you have a family to support. Off the grid baby.

Not trying to be a jerk but the thread isn't about ware you would be better off we all know ware that is and it isn't the city.

let me point out a friendly reminder on what the thread is about.

Originally posted by angryamericanWhat happens when you cant leave. Never mind the reason why there could be a bunch of things causing you to stay.

Water, Food, and shelter. Are three main ingredient's for survival. Believe it or not an almost abandoned city can supply all three. One on a short term basis and two on a long term basis.

Please can we stop with the you would be better off in the country and assume that not every body is going to make it that far at first. That's what this thread is for. to help those who cant stay alive til they can. Nobody said hold up in the city forever.

I reckon one of the first things you would need to do in a dead city is to redirect the rainwater gutters so that any precipitation is directed into tanks rather than allowed to run to drain, What ever your water system if you are going to have any quality of life it will need to be a gravity feed system as pumping water around in cities is a waste of valuable energy.
A survivalist of old I knew worked at KCL London and he was adamant he would not leave, so he bought a couple of extra domestic water tanks and out them in his loft (with a few reenforced joists to take extra weight) so he has at least 200 gallons capacity. and he apartment already had a roof top garden so he has put a few 8 x 6 greenhouses up there. So far hes only grown Tomatoes I think. I think he bought and set aside one of those B & Q rain water diverter kits that you use to rdirect rain water into waster butts.

Really? You think that leaving is the best idea for a city?

Hundreds of thousands of people suddenly in the national preserves, or farmlands?

How much game do you really think there is out there? Because in North America, we've done a pretty good job in keeping their numbers significantly less than what would sustain any realistic population.

In the dark ages when laws were not particularly easy to enforce outside of cities, it was a death sentence for a person to be kicked out of their community. Women could not travel without escort. Bands of men would congregate and attack people for their stuff. You think that this would be a CITY issue only? Because it surely would not be. Gangs would have a one up in the cities merely because they are already set up. Gangs outside will quickly emerge.

Women travelling or attempting to get out by themselves or with children in tow, and without competent looking male escorts are targets. You think a gun is going to be enough? Really? Because the norm throughout cultures is for men to group up - you shoot one, and you still get gang
raped or worse. And all your supplies get taken away too.

On top of that, you'd have the hundreds of thousands, or even millions of people who think that they can actually hunt etc. They'd be a danger to themselves and those around them.

While it is likely that decorum would last for at least a little while for most of the population, within a month you'd be looking at some pretty serious problems.

Hunkering down does have much to recommend in many situations. I personally would not be so keen to jump out into the world of pretend rambos thinking that it is NECESSARILY the safest option.

Angry American..Good thread...This is one of maybe 3 threads since I been on ATS where I actually read every post. people had good thigns to say on here. good stuff.

With that being said I will throw my two cents in.
I think first and formost, it really depends on what city you are in. All cities are different, and all lays of lands are different, different buildings, different weather, different animals, different people, different food sources, and different defences, etc. You have to know what you are up against, you have to know who is still in your neighborhood, or who has left. That really matters for defense purposes also for offensive purposes. Another great thing I learned on ATS recently was a thread on the "upside down fire" ,basically
it is a better way to build a fire, that doesnt give off any smoke(look it up, great stuff). Thats a good way of keeping warm without getting noticed.
Moving on. Weapons. Im sorry to say guys, but sometimes guns arent always the best thing in an urban "survival' mode as those also can give away your position as sound echoes well in cities. So only use if you have to, or on scavanger hunts. Not saying you dont need them, just dont get too trigger happy, Avoid Avoid Avoid. "live today, fight tommorow" mentality. I recommend a rossbow or some type of compound. I really like that post in here earlier about the cochroaches(live like that). pick your battles, get what you need, then hurry up and move along. When it comes to picking a spot to settle down, just remember landscape. The men who usually win in the end, are the men with the high ground. You dont want to be caught in the cesspool. Find a place where you have a good 360 degree line of sight and good fortress defense. When it comes to traps, dont make it obvious, as a trap is supposed to be a suprise to the enemy, and they shouldnt even have time to realize they have been caught in one. That means no barb wire or cars piled up on top of each other(bad move) that just gives the enemy time to better think out his plan of attack. Clothing..black is fine, but faded black is better (or dark grey).Even a dark green is good for that matter. Military camo is good for a couple reasons, they are built for summer/winter depending on which ones you have. Boots...make sure you have good boots, and always take care of your feet, those are the most important parts of your body when it comes to being able to be efficient in living. Lace the bottoms of your pant legs(like they doin the military) this keeps critters from climbing up your legs when living in dark environments. Lacing your pant bottoms are also good too to keep you from ruining your clothing. Water, dont need to go over that you are all prety much aware of that, most of you in here reading this stuff already know or shouldknow most of this stuff anyways.
Hygene, always maintain your hygene as best as you can. For one little sore can turn into something much worse. Always have first aid, and try to get your hands on nursing books. Also find Cookbooks while you are at it, not that you will be makin gourmet food, just that it will show you stuff you probably didnt know before. Never wear reflective material. as this can get you shot, I.E. Rings, dog tags, ect. Always carry a good knife with both straight and serated edge. You will be suprised how often you will need it. Thats it I believe, Im sure I missed some things, but that is just my two cents. Adaptability is the main thing. Always keep a cool head, and always remember, its just life.

Originally posted by MoonMine

Originally posted by Northern Raider
I honestly believe that people with familes who live in cities who think they can survive are just making excuses for themselves, a fit young man may get by for a few months, a family will not.

Exactly my thoughts. I would recommend living in the middle of nowhere on a farm living off the land for as much as possible. Arm yourself with a decent winchester and riot gun and sufficient ammo to protect your family & proceeds. Potatos, tomatos, unions, lettuce, grain, zukini, melon and other fruits, maybe almonds and olives etc etc. Most are easy to grow.

Then about 20-30 chickens, rabbits, pigs, sheep, maybe one cow and a few dogs.

A well or river closeby, some wind and solar for electricity and you are all set. Tough? Maybe. Impossible? Certrianly not. Especially if you have a family to support. Off the grid baby.

The whole topic base on "something big happened", while most land ruined, most people death ... etc.
And so, why do u think that u could still grow potatos etc on poison/radiated open land , and pet 20-30 chickens etc in the open?? How long for potatos etc to grow? How could u keep/store them without refrigerator?
Moreover, u think many countries in the world could let u own/buy winchester/gun? And exactly how many guns is enough to protect an open farm while everyone around will try to rob u? And, most importantly, I don't even know how to grow any food, or catch any fish, or build a camp, or maintain an fire when rain, or cook, or make a toilet, or create water, or keep insect out..... in the wild !

I need this thread, I need advise, and I still don't know how to survive my wife & my 6 months old son here on the 10th floor. I NEED HELP, PLS.