Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsSmarter
Good tips AA the thing about water in tall buildings was new to me. But CS I may be wrong but I doubt domestic dogs would form packs with others. Just my 2cents.

Domestic dogs would form packs immediately. That cute little poodle will be a raging monster in about 2 weeks without humans around, It's their natural state. Count on it.
Great thread by the way!

Spelling Edit

[edit on 30-5-2007 by Samhain]

Originally posted by Long Lance

one question: how long would you intend to stay if it worked and where's the advantage if you have to leave, eventually, anyway?

PS: i'm not trying to be overly critical of the idea, anti-cyclic patterns are potentially rewarding, i'd just like to know how and why you actually got the idea, based on which merits?

IMO your not being overly critical just a realist. Its a perfectly normal response to be surprised that a person is telling others how to survive in the city. Our first instinct as survivalist is to head for the hills So to speak.

I actually got the idea for posting what I had learned by watching a movie in titled meltdown. In this movie a near mis by a asteroid caused the earth to be pulled from its orbit and closer to the sun. This group of people were trying to get out of the city but they couldn't. Then I started to remember my past training and the rest as they say is history. It was really a poor film but it had its moments, andf it inspired me to start this thread.

Just so it is clear to every body I do now and always will believe that it is best to vacate the city ASAP. But things do happen and sometimes you just get stuck ware you are. that in a nut shell was my inspiration.

These techniques will help you get by until you can bug out. it is not in any way shape or form an encouragement to stay long term.

Angry, I agree that there is no long term advantage to a cityscape for survival. If sit-x is something that lasts more than a year before life 'gets back to normal', then at some point I think the city has to be abandoned.

On the other hand, the "burbs" might be exploitable for some time. Most of the survivalist would have fled right past them on their way to the tall timber. Most fighting for resources should have ended within 6 months, except for sporadic clashes. (Six months of conflict among survivors, should have reduced the combatants significantly.)

Just be aware that if you hole up in a city for six months to a year before being forced to move to the country, there will be one very high danger to you and yours. Those in any direction that have managed to fight off scavengers, two and four legged, for that long will be toughened up. If you get into a tangle with these folks, no matter who's at fault, it will not be easy. Expect casualties.

Interesting thread.

I don`t know if this is common knowledge on here, but something that was pointed out to me recently is that bean sprouts can be grown without direct sunlight. I don`t remember the english name for them offhand, might be mung bean. You get them in chinese food a lot. They can actually be grown in darkness, but the nutritional value drops a bit.

Because they harvest quite quickly, they can be set to sprout in batches, so that every day you have a fresh source of vegetables.

A 50lb sack of seeds will cost next to nothing, and they can be set to sprout in a ready bathtub. Or two.

Food for thought...

Vox thats a great post you just earned a 5 on the star thingy. its stuff like that that keeps the ATS survival community alive and fresh keep up the good work.

If you're planning on staying in the city a while, and you're out scavenging, you need a pretty secure place to store your stuff. Now vermin, rats, will become a greater and greater problem, as they will be unchecked. And we all know how fast them suckers can get out of control.

Those steel toolboxes that you find in automotive stores make good tight fitting containers. They're heavy, but still portable with a hand truck. Best of all they're rodent and water proof.

They're also long enough to work as a gun safe, and with a GOOD high dollar lock, and bolted down securely, they will protect your valuables while you're out and about.

The poor man's safe.

I'm just throwing this idea out here, to see what people think. In such a situation, suppose you got a bunch of people together that you could trust, like family and friends and such. It makes sense that a group is more likely to survive together than a bunch of individuals fighting it out. Each can bring their own set of skills to the situation, and protect each other if something happens.

I was thinking that such a group could 'take over' a building, as large as possible, as a kind of base of operations. Probably the best thing would be a tall office building with few entrances to guard. Something like a mall would be nice for all of the supplies, but malls usually have a ton of entrances and would be very hard to defend with the number of people I'm thinking would be realistic.

If things got nasty and the building got invaded, you could probably all find somewhere to hide temporarily and then start some kind of guerilla battle, if that makes sense, and try to take it back.

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I'm just throwing this idea out here, to see what people think. In such a situation, suppose you got a bunch of people together that you could trust, like family and friends and such. It makes sense that a group is more likely to survive together than a bunch of individuals fighting it out. Each can bring their own set of skills to the situation, and protect each other if something happens.

...

I don't mean to belittle your tip, it's a definitely a good survival strategy for a lot of environments to be sure, but it's also a perfect example of why I think planning any kind of long term survival in an urban situation is extremely problematic, no matter how well thought out, and why I think it's pretty much always a better option to just GTFO.

One word. Gangs.

They not only have experience fending for themselves, and have no problem at all committing violent acts to achieve their ends, but they are often heavily armed, organized and already exist in basically all cities. Basically they have a huge advantage against the average law abiding citizens in the immediate aftermath of sit X, and I imagine they're well aware of that. Their only real challengers are law enforcement and other gangs.

I've recieved extensive training on two types of urban operations recon and Anti-SF operations. Both have few ground rules that should be remembered.

1) Think in 3D, a normal countryside is mostly 2-dimensional battlespace and in one layer. Urban environment has 3-dimensions and at least 3-layers that you will have to be aware of. 1st layer is the underground, 2nd is the street and 3rd are the buldings. It really takes a bit of tought to get a grip of the fact that you'll have to keep taps on what's going on in the other layers. ie. when moving through a 3rd floor of a 4 storey building you'll have to worry about attacks from above and bellow in addition to tradional directions.

2)Walls are no permanent, if the door is locked most interior walls can be penetrated with little force.

3)Suprise is a force multiplier, if attacking hostiles holed up in building, avoid doors and windows and rather make your own entry holes.

4)Remember that instead of going around an obstacle (for example a barricaded door or a sentry) it may be easier to go over/under it.

5)Hide only in places with more than one exit

6)A city with no lights is a really dark place, moving clandestinely will be easier than in normal conditions.

I hope this gives a little tought to people planning to survive in a city.

Another thought about sheltering-in-place in a city is what do you do when it turns out to be less fun than you thought it was? If the majority of the population has already left and you've stayed behind with hoards of scavengers you could easily fid yourself trapped. If you suddenly come to the realization that the situation is unviable you will find yourself in an extremely vulnerable siuation when you attempt to escape.

Yeah, I never thought about gangs. They would probably almost welcome a Situation X. I'm not sure how you would deal with gangs effectively, unless you either allied yourself with a gang (has its own problems) or else made friends with army guys or cops or something, who are trained to handle that sort of thing.

In my hometown, we have gangs like most/all big cities, but usually they just mind their own business, and the only people who really have much to fear from them are the other gangs. Many of our murders and violent crimes here are committed by one gang against another. While I have no reason to fear gangs now, I can well imagine that in Situation X that they would start causing a lot more trouble, and would have to be considered in any urban survival plan.

Ahh, what to do in town when the fit hits the shan.... Well, you might want to consider improving your knowledge of what's UNDER the streets. Those abundant manhole covers you scarcely notice, open to a world of possibilities. Tunnels for covert travel, potential power for your hideout, potential clean water source, and even a potential hidey hole for when the bogey man comes.

Prepare now, by learning all you can about your local systems. Here is a quick tip: Opening a manhole cover can be a chore if you have never done it before. They weigh quite a bit and don't seem to offer a good handhold for prying them open. Take a short length of very stout wire and affix it securely to the *center* of a sturdy bolt. By dropping the bolt into the center hole of the manhole cover, you can then pull on the wire and lift/slide the cover to the side quite quickly with little effort. Easy Peasy, and you're underground in no time. Just be sure to watch out for 'gators.

I like the mall idea. It can shelter a huge number of people and in some cases has its own wells and back up generators. The fools will strip it first of things of little use to the survivalist, like today's throwaway fashion clothing and shoes and leave more practical and durable items behind. Most looters are poorly educated in practical survival matters and will likely be dead within 6 months of a total collapse. With limited entrances, malls can be easily defended. The parking lots can are perfect "defensive" zones that will allow roof top defenders in some cases a 200-400 yard line of sight.

Even the gangs will recognize that vicious criminal activity will get them killed quick by their victim's relatives. Very few gangs could deal with a squad of ex-military trained veterans fresh from kicking in doors in the Middle East. There will actually very few stray dogs left to form packs after a total collapse especially once they have to fend for themselves. The first time they try to bring down major game like feral cattle or pigs, they'll like lose quite a few pack members in the process. Let's not forget that major predators like coyotes, wolves, big cats and bears will all make a meal out of man's best friend. Even the pups are vulnerable to large birds of prey like hawks and eagles.

I think the shopping centre idea is a non starter, its far to obvious. Unless you do hapen to have a whole army of ex soliders and an unlimited supply of ammo, in which case you might stand a chance.

Everybody will be making a stop by the place on their way out to see what they can loot. Everything will be gone by the time you manage to get set up and in their. After your in their people will still want to get in...

All it woudl take is a fire to break out/be started and you are totaly screwed.

Its maybe just me but i can't help but believe that its better to almost hide away and not draw attention to you and your position.

Manta, shopping malls in the US are quite different from the ones I'd seen in the UK and other European cities in the mid 90's. They are also separated from other buildings usually by large stretches of parking area. Very fortress like ie the Pentagon. My local one could be very well defended against invasion by about 20-40 people. I see a 'chaos period' of perhaps of 2 weeks to perhaps 6 months, followed by slow rebuilding transition. We'll probably go back to the days of armed trade caravans and convoys. At ambush points, many local will probably paid a toll by traders to ensure safe passage of goods just like in the early days of turnpikes and royal roads. The days of hopping in your private vehicle/auto to go sight seeing will probably go away for a while. Banditry is bad for business and it would surprise me to see a few highwaymen hanging from gibbets as a warning to those who want to try their hand at the trade.

Makes sense crgintx. Just shows how different things are in different parts of the world and how certain aspects of what we discuss here cannot be transfered so easily between countries.

However that means you need between 20 and 40 people you can absolutely trust. Even so your going to draw ALOT of unwanted attention to yourself.

Again just what i think,im more fo trying to hide and not get into conflicts - which is why i would rather not be in a city at all.

The time to plan is before and not when........ seven years ago I moved from Anaheim Ca to the woods of Oregon.......love it here.

My plans for WTSHTF was in place, I had supplies twentyfive miles away from my home, I had underground plan for all the pipes in the city and a breakdown micro motor bike together with a small back pack and two estra gallons of gas.

My plan was to drop down a storm drain and make my gateaway away from all the nuts in the city.

But....... also had plans to stay in place, besides my two years supply of food I also had a list of 23 Mormons who lived in the area, as you know one of their rules is to always have at least one year of food at hand.

Originally posted by PONCE


But....... also had plans to stay in place, besides my two years supply of food I also had a list of 23 Mormons who lived in the area, as you know one of their rules is to always have at least one year of food at hand.

Actually I didn't know that thats a very interesting thing to know. thats what I love about ATS. ya learn all the time.

in the end, i think it is fairly simple. you do whatever you can. better be willing to kill without thinking twice cause there will be someone out there that will take you out for whatever.
personally, i would stay in my house till i thought i could move around. i am about 30 miles west of cleveland. lots of 'pockets' around here.

first thing is you start now. there is a spring around here that we get gallon jugs of water filled up for 5 cents. get some water stashed. then food. we went after beef jerky's, canned tuna, and beans...different kinds of beans...cheap, filling, nutritional, and not all that horrible.
i would recomend some fever reducer and vitamins/suppliments. some sort of antiseptic and. last but not least, you have to arm yourself.
i have quite a few handguns, a couple shotguns and various other things. i have twin 9mm's and i got them for a reason. light, accurate, and 9mm ammo is one of the most popular in the world. in an emergency, ammo will becomea life saver, and a tool for bartering.

as soon as 'it' happened, i would start boarding up my stuff, keep locked and loaded all the time....feed/take care of my dog till his food runs out then we would eat him.
in the end, people are always a food source as well.

i don't think i can stress arms enough. if you are not armed, you will be taken out. how else can you protect yourself?