Phillips:60 Architects Support WTC7 Controlled Demolition Theory, page 6
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reply posted on 1-6-2007 @ 10:35 AM by LeftBehind
Originally posted by apex
Now, I don't know about you, but if you went up to the average person on the street, and said that the WTC demolition clouds looked like a gravity current, they'd say "What?", whereas if you said they resembled a Pyroclastic flow, they would agree.

But yes, it wasn't a true Pyroclastic flow.



No. It wasn't a pyroclastic flow period. There were no volcanoes involved.

I sincerely doubt the average person would know what either of those terms mean, so I don't see the point in calling gravity flows pyroclastic flows. While a pyroclastic flow is also a gravity flow, they are not interchangeable terms.

Call it a gravity flow if you wish, but please stop saying that the dust cloud is proof of a volcanic eruption.

Secondly, what would it being a pyroclastic flow mean? It certainly wouldn't point to explosives, as no controlled demolition has ever produced a pyroclastic flow. Why are they trying to make people beleive that volcanoes and explosives are somehow interrelated?

FACT: if building 7 collapsed from the damage you mentioned, it would be the first time in recorded history that something like that happened, let alone replicated a CD to a T.


Something like what? If you are talking about a building collapsing from fire, you would be wrong, that has happened many times in recorded history.

If it really replicated a CD to a T, then we wouldn't be having this discussion as there would be no disagreement.

In fact there are many things not consistent with a CD in 7's collapse, it's just that most conspiracy sites choose to ignore them.

CD's do not drop the center of a building several seconds before dropping the rest of the building.

CD's always have very loud and very obvious explosive charges detonating, something completely lacking from 7.

So really it does not replicate a CD "to a T."


reply posted on 1-6-2007 @ 11:20 AM by nick7261
Originally posted by scrapple

So unless a structural engineer pipes in I am going to conclude the falling tops of the towers can use their set amount of energy to either break mechanical bonds holding up the floors, or rubberize the internal steel core tower, or blitz the concrete floors into dust. I simply doubt the system's un-aided capacity can accomplish all three.



Actually, you make an interesting observation about the amount of energy being required to take out the steel cores and pulverize the concrete. Under the CD theory, how much additional energy would need to be added by the explosives to topple the towers?

In other words, there were several events that released a calculable amount of energy:

-the planes hitting the buildings,
-the explosion of jet fuel,
-the ongoing fires, and
-the energy of the tops of the towers falling into the lower floors.

Many proponents of the CD theory state that the above four events alone absolutely could *not* have had the energy required to collapse the buildings, therefore it must have been a CD.

So has any CD proponent actually done ANY calculations on the amounts of energy each of these five events represents?

planes hitting buildings = xxx?
explosions of jet fuel = xxx?
ongoing fires = xxx?
top caps falling = xxx?
explosive charges = xxx?

If not, then all the CT claims that it *had* to be a CD are really nothing more than uneducated guesses. Not being able to explain how the buildings fell may more likely reflect an ignorance of the physics involved than proof of a CD.

It would be comparable to a child not understanding how pictures magically appear on television and then concluding that there must be tiny little people living inside the tv set.

Many CTers lack any education or understanding of mechanical physics and thus conclude that the towers had to be brought down by CDs because they read this on some CT web site.

"I don't understant how to do all those complicated physics equations to figure out what happened so that means it was a CD!" doesn't make it true.


reply posted on 1-6-2007 @ 01:31 PM by Griff
Originally posted by snoopy
So in other words you think the building should just slowly collapse. It simply doesn't work that way.


Show me ANY building that has collapsed in that manner without the use of controlled demolition. You can't. It just doesn't work that way.

If you were to take your chair leg and slowly hack away at it, is it just going to slowly fall, or at some point if the chair going to just fall over? With the fire it weakens the steal which reduces it's strenth. There is a point at which the weight above is great enough to overcome to strength of the steel. At which point the supports give way. They don't just slowly fold down. It's basic physics.


Oh really? Take that same chair and instead of hacking at the leg try using fire. That's what we are talking about. Would the steel legs all of a sudden just give way with no resistance? Nope, they would bend and deform more slowly than freefall.

The floor below can in no way withstand the force of an entire floor in momentum (for example, hold a 40lb weight. Then try catching a 40lb weight dropped form 12 feet above). Then each floor below has to take on the weight f the building above adding an additional floor worth of weight and momentum with each floor. This is called a progressive collapse.


What caused the freefall "drop" of the cap in the first place? It should not have dropped, it should have slumped.


I know everyone means well, but it's kinda silly seeing a whole bunch of us with no expertise what so ever trying to convince ourselves that we are structural engineers. Just because YOU don't understand how collapses work does not prove a conspiracy. it only proves you are not a structural engineer.


Care to see my credentials? Just because YOU don't understand physics, material science, statics, dynamics, finite element analysis etc. does not prove that what the government has fed you is correct.

And of course all this has been well documented by hundreds of engineers and scientists and tested. As well as viewable by every structral engineer in the world. So again, not understanding the engineering does not make the engineering wrong.


Please provide some calculations, computer models, steel frame fire tests etc. that support your theory. Because going by 100+ years of known physics, the Cardington steel fire tests (pre-9/11) and even NIST's fire tests and computer simulations prove these hundreds of engineers wrong. Just because you don't understand engineering principles does not make them right.



reply posted on 1-6-2007 @ 01:58 PM by Griff
Originally posted by LeftBehind
Then why would they put such a statement on the front page if they don't even provide one source for it? Why not just stick to the facts and leave the rhetoric behind?


Agreed. And firstly, I think you guys are forgetting. I'm just a member there. I didn't create the site, I didn't write anything for the site. Just my name is there. So, quit with the accusations on me. I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CREATION OF THAT SITE!!!!!!!!!!!

You, see that's my main problem with what they are presenting. If they want to be taken serious as engineers, then stick to the facts.


Also agree.

Instead they claim that literally tons of steel were not only present in the basement of 7, but also in the basements of both towers.


What should they say? "An unknown amount of molten steel"? I think tons is acceptable seeing as it was flowing. Plus the metorite proves that there WAS tons of molten steel.

Claims that are dubious at best, yet we are somehow expected to take them seriously with stuff like that on the front page, merely because they claim to be engineers. It's preposterous.


I'll give the benefit of the doubt.

I agree, why post the rhetoric and the strangely worded sentences. Just say a thermate/thermite cutting charge, not a cutting charge like thermite/thermate, or just say cutting charge.


Agreed.


Have you even looked at the site?

It says thermate four times on the right side of the main page!


Hence why I said that they don't mention therMITE at all.

And what is thermate you ask?

Is is basically a supercharged thermite reaction, so thermite/thermate are practically interchangable.


No they are not. Having Barium Nitrate and Sulfur added to something makes it chemically different from the original. Like how oxygen is a flamable gas and hydrogen is a flamable gas but combine them and you get a liquid that puts fire out. Adding things chemically changes it's chemical composition, so, NO thermite/thermate are NOT interchangeable. Especially when we were talking about by-products.


You would be wrong. Since it is primarily thermite, it would end up with primarily the same end product, which is mostly aluminum oxide.

A compound with 68% thermite, and 2% sulfur, would produce an end product that is mostly aluminum oxide and molten iron. The sulfur content is almost negligble as a "chemical signature."


You forgot barium nitrate also. No, it would NOT have the exact same chemical signature as thermite.



Sorry. Read the above link. Thermate's main ingredient is thermite.


And concrete's main ingredient is cement. Is cement and concrete interchangeable? Does cement and concrete act the same? careful because if you answer yes, then it shows why you think thermite and thermate are the same thing.


I don't think so. Pyroclastic flows are only produced by volcanoes.


Agreed that the word pyroclastic shouldn't be used. It was not scorching hot but it DID have non uniform densities in it which makes it a density flow.

Ultimately, they need to improve their sources and drop the rhetoric or they will end up a joke like those scholars for truth and justice that are advocating energy beams.


Agreed.


Note: I purposefully ignored the off topic comments and personal attacks. I apologize for the Mr. Engineer comment, it was out of line. Let's try and keep this discussion to their stated beliefs on the site, and the site in general.


Will do. And you are forgiven for the comment. And I also appologize if I said anything to offend you.

[edit on 6/1/2007 by Griff]


reply posted on 1-6-2007 @ 02:18 PM by Griff
Originally posted by LeftBehind
While a pyroclastic flow is also a gravity flow, they are not interchangeable terms.


But thermite and thermate are?

Secondly, what would it being a pyroclastic flow mean? It certainly wouldn't point to explosives, as no controlled demolition has ever produced a pyroclastic flow. Why are they trying to make people beleive that volcanoes and explosives are somehow interrelated?


Actually, CDs do produce gravity flows (density flows). But, I would expect a 110 story collapsing would also produce a gravity flow.

Something like what? If you are talking about a building collapsing from fire, you would be wrong, that has happened many times in recorded history.


Name one steel framed skyscraper (that was built to code) that has globally collapsed from fire. You'll be hard pressed to find any.

If it really replicated a CD to a T, then we wouldn't be having this discussion as there would be no disagreement.


And? It didn't replicate a CD to a T. How many times do we have to say that a black op is NOT going to look like a conventional CD.

Sometimes it seams to me that you either don't read what we write or you don't comprehend it. Not an insult but I'm getting sick of saying till I'm blue in the face that

a) They wouldn't look like a conventional CD if it was a black op.

b) The towers would have collapsed from the impact zones either way. The impact zones were the weekest link. Any natural collapse or demolition would initiate at the impact zones.

In fact there are many things not consistent with a CD in 7's collapse, it's just that most conspiracy sites choose to ignore them.


Like what? That it didn't collapse PERFECTLY into it's footprint? That's a strawman and you know it.

CD's do not drop the center of a building several seconds before dropping the rest of the building.


Really? All CD's are different and I've seen videos of some that did.

CD's always have very loud and very obvious explosive charges detonating, something completely lacking from 7.

So really it does not replicate a CD "to a T."


Again, you are ignoring many eyewitness accounts as to explosions and also video accounts of explosions. I know that doesn't mean they were CD explosives but to ignore them and say they didn't happen is disingeneous at best.


reply posted on 1-6-2007 @ 02:39 PM by nick7261
Originally posted by selfless
Suffocation from the smoke most likely, that's what usually happens when there is smoke in a building but doesn't mean there are extreme fires in the building to have smoke.


Of course you don't need extreme fires to cause smoke. I'm sure that it took more than "tiny little fires" to cause this much black smoke to be pouring out of WTC1 15 minutes after the attack:




Now to show you what i mean here is a comparison of the WTC fire and the Madrid fire.


Don't take this personal, but for 5 years CTers have failed to grasp how irrelevant and borderline moronic it is to compare the Madrid fire to WTC1 and WTC2.

The Madrid building was not hit with a plane; WTC1 and WTC2 were hit by 300,000 pound planes traveling at 500 mph, filled with thousands of gallons of jet fuel. Do you have any idea how much force and energy are contained in a 300,000 pound mass traveling at 500 mph?

The incredible force from the impact of the planes, along with the explosing jet fuel was the equivalent of the WTCs being hit with a huge missile. The planes and the subsequent explosion caused not only fires, but massive damage to the WTC's steel beams. There is nothing comparable to the Madrid fire.



Here is the tiny little fire from the WTC.







The photo that shows the close-up of the hole in the north face of WTC1, along with the woman standing in the hole, might be either the most ill-informed or most intellectually dishonest argument ever put forth by the CT movement. It's such a bogus argument that I'm starting to believe it was first put out there by paid disinfo agents.

Showing a zoomed in photo with a "tiny" fire in the photo does *not* prove there were no large fires in WTC1. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're just ill-informed and not being intentionally intellectually dishonest about this.

Look at these photos of the opposite side of WTC1, where the fires were consuming the better part of the entire width of the structure, and at least 5 or 6 floors:












Even the photo of the east face of WTC1 shows there was a large fire in the SE corner of the building.




Here's another photo of the north side of WTC1 zoomed out to show the *actual* fires visible from the north.





And so the tiny fire took down the WTC in 1 hour?


You no longer can use being misinformed as an excuse. If you continue to characterize the fires at WTC1 as "tiny little fires" then it's obvious that you really don't care about the truth, and only want to sensationalize and perpetuate a distorted reality that exists only in the CT sub-culture.

And so the Madrid fire lasted for 24 hours and didn't take the building down.


Correct. The Madrid fire didn't take the building down because the buidling was not hit by a 300,000 pound airplane traveling at 500 mph before the fire began.


reply posted on 1-6-2007 @ 02:55 PM by Griff
Originally posted by snoopy
And what I am saying is that he isn't.


Prove I'm not. I have posted my transcripts before. If that is not enough for you, I'll be getting my PE sometime this year and will gladly give you my PE number to be verified.

If he was, he would not be asking questions the way he is asking them.


So, engineers are to be all knowing and can't ask questions?

But I guess since he is listed as a civil engineer on a web site that has no verification process at all, it must be true.


You could easily verify the ones that have PE listed by their name. You can look up anyone who is a PE and verify they are real. Go to the state's board for professional engineers website and look up their name. Soon, you'll be able to do the same with me.

You're telling me that a civil engineer is suggesting that a it's odd that a failed support on a building could cause a sudden collapse instead of slowly falling? I mean that alone should be a red light for you.



No, you are taking what I'm saying wrong or misrepresenting what I'm saying on purpose. Which is it?

A steel column will not buckle all at once from heat. It will bend and deform more slowly than a sudden free fall. And when I say slowly, I don't mean like mollases like you are trying to make it seem.

And, the whole point was to say that the calculations of the cap falling at freefall are eroneous because the cap wouldn't have fallen freefall 12 feet. It should have slumped slower into the rest of the building.

In conclusion:

I DON'T TAKE KINDLY TO BEING CALLED A LIAR!!!!!!!!!!!!


[edit on 6/1/2007 by Griff]

[edit on 6/1/2007 by Griff]

[edit on 6/1/2007 by Griff]
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