Ultimate Arrogance

my assertion: religion is arrogant

an excerpt from sam harris:

the creator of the universe takes an interest in me, approves of me, loves me, and will reward me after death; my current beliefs, drawn from scripture, will remain the best statement of the truth until the end of the world; everyone who disagrees with me will spend eternity in hell

now, that's a fairly average religious belief held by 1-3 billion people on this planet.

how is it not arrogant to assume that the creator of all things in this universe cares about what you do (especially when naked)?

now, i'm going to single out christianity for a second here... simply because it shows the SINGLE most arrogant religious assertion

god sent his ONLY begotten son to EARTH.

now, this asserts one of two things:
1: there are other planets with intelligent life... but god cares more about earth and humans
or
2: there are no other planets with intelligent life

either one of these is expressly arrogant.
now, with regard to intelligent life in the universe i must say that i am agnostic.. for we truely have no way of finding out aside from listening.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
an excerpt from sam harris:

the creator of the universe takes an interest in me, approves of me, loves me, and will reward me after death; my current beliefs, drawn from scripture, will remain the best statement of the truth until the end of the world; everyone who disagrees with me will spend eternity in hell

You realize that Sam Harris is an atheist, right? You also realize that he's written two books attacking Christianity and other religions, right? So why would you take a quote from a person like Sam Harris and tell us that it is what Christians believe? Disinformation?

now, that's a fairly average religious belief held by 1-3 billion people on this planet.

Strange... I consider myself a Christian and yet I don't share this view. I don't believe that everyone who disagrees with me will "spend eternity in hell." Simply read the second chapter of Romans. Man in his essence will be judged by his heart, not his religious beliefs.

how is it not arrogant to assume that the creator of all things in this universe cares about what you do (especially when naked)?

Because God's purpose of creating the Earth was for us. Who else did he create it for, squirrels? We are the only beings here capable of cognitive thought. Now as for the rest of the universe, no idea. Perhaps the universe is an outlet for his omnipotent energy.

now, i'm going to single out christianity for a second here... simply because it shows the SINGLE most arrogant religious assertion

Oh, I can think of many religions which are much more arrogant. Such as religions that say certain families are to be worshiped as gods, and religions that demand human sacrifices.

god sent his ONLY begotten son to EARTH.

.... yeah.... so?

now, this asserts one of two things:
1: there are other planets with intelligent life... but god cares more about earth and humans
or
2: there are no other planets with intelligent life

Or 3. God did not create Earth as the only planet with intelligent life, and he holds alien life in the same regard as human life.

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
You realize that Sam Harris is an atheist, right?

obviously.

You also realize that he's written two books attacking Christianity and other religions, right?

yes.

So why would you take a quote from a person like Sam Harris and tell us that it is what Christians believe? Disinformation?

i just used the quote because it's essentially right. christianity, along with most other religions, really boils down to that quote.

Strange... I consider myself a Christian and yet I don't share this view. I don't believe that everyone who disagrees with me will "spend eternity in hell." Simply read the second chapter of Romans. Man in his essence will be judged by his heart, not his religious beliefs.

i said it's FAIRLY AVERAGE

Because God's purpose of creating the Earth was for us. Who else did he create it for, squirrels? We are the only beings here capable of cognitive thought. Now as for the rest of the universe, no idea. Perhaps the universe is an outlet for his omnipotent energy.

but you can't back that without going for the arrogant assumption that cognitive thought is the ultimate deciding factor. hell, there's no evidence to even support your claim that said being designed this planet to begin with...

Oh, I can think of many religions which are much more arrogant. Such as religions that say certain families are to be worshiped as gods, and religions that demand human sacrifices.

that's not arrogant, that's IGNORANT.

Or 3. God did not create Earth as the only planet with intelligent life, and he holds alien life in the same regard as human life.

then why the hell did WE get jesus?
that's the point. earth gets jesus, everyone else doesn't... that's a fairly arrogant assertion.

men wrote only begotten son, therefore it is error and not correct.

all men are sons of God.

I am a son of God, and as much as you wish you werent or do not think that you are, you too, madness, are a son of God.

It's just that .. God used whats commonly referred to as the Holy Spirit through Jesus, giving other men the impression he was more than a man. He, being a man of the times, could only think the same thing, afterall, miracles are sprouting from his fingertips, and hes capable of these strange abilities.

But it was always God doing the work, Jesus was a man flesh and bone, just a man, just another son of God. Using the Holy Spirit as they call it, God used his power through Jesus to show people that he was the Messiah, without removing their freewill. They decided to have him put to death, and God in his infinite wisdom, did not directly intervene, knowing that Jesus needed to be seperated from his flesh so his soul or spirit could return at the end of days to redeem the flock and destroy the wicked portion of the world.

Jesus didnt know any of this. It was only toward the end, shortly before he was captured, that he seemed to realize the master plan he was involved in, and that he needed to be martyred.

[edit on 5/29/2007 by runetang]

Not sure if I understand your point, madness. Taking your criteria for the arrogance of certain religions, would that mean that anyone who believes that there are no extraterrestrial beings with intelligence equal to or greater than man is being arrogant? Aliens generally being a physical entity, I'd not be uncomfortable in the definite assertion that they do not exist.

After all, with the universe being as large as it is, if there is proof of (or the assumption of) one other super-intelligent alien species, it would be reasonable to assume that there would be countless other super-intelligent alien species. If there were countless super-intelligent alien species, it would be reasonable to assume that at least one would have the capability to travel to our planet. If one species has the capability to travel to our planet, it would be reasonable to assume that there are countless alien species capable of travelling to our planet. If there are countless alien species capable of travelling to our planet, it would be reasonable to assume that we would have certifiable proof of at least one.

See? There is arrogance whichever option you choose. I prefer the simpler arrogance that we are the only species in the universe with an intelligence at the level that it is (and not greater). As unfortunate (or arrogant) as it is, some things are of greater importance than others.

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Because God's purpose of creating the Earth was for us. Who else did he create it for, squirrels? We are the only beings here capable of cognitive thought.

Well here's a prime example of arrogance that proves the OP's point.

First of all, most primates (humans are primates,ok?), dolphins, whales, orcas, etc are capable of thought and are self-aware. Does the bible apply to dolphins also then?

Also you assume cognitive thought is what God's choice is based on, maybe some dolphins believe they are the chosen ones because God gave them a Sonar :shk: just an analogy

My thoughts exactly Madnessinmysoul.
Think about it:
All good Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc are taught to revere the sacred texts supposedly 'inspired' by a higher power, yet show no true sign of divine origins, and are nearly continually 'revised'.
The only greater arrogance I believe is the constant attempts at atheist/agnostic conversion on the Faith forums.
Do you Bible-bashers honsetly believe that, through a few years of 'intense' study of a book supposedly inspired by (and strangely enough revised constantly by inspired persons) God, or another higher power, that you can truly comprehend His/Her/Its will? That you can heap scorn on other faiths/those lacking faiths simply because you've convinced yourself you know 'god'?
Isn't THAT the ultimate arrogance? Isn't THAT worse than unbelieving?
Would you rather have someone not speak to you at all, or totally misrepresent you, your thoughts, personality etc?
I think not.

I totally agree with madness that the reliogous are arrogant. The problem arises from basic assumptions, specifically the basic assumption of whether or not a deity exists.
Religionites assume that their deity of choice exists while non-theists assume that no deity exists. The problem with these assumptions is that they are UNPROVABLE, no matter how much we all like to believe. What we believe is determined by many factors, with everyone having different factors – we all have different beliefs.
However believing in something does not make it true – a thing that everyone seems to forget including not-theists but this does not detract from the fact that most religionites are arrogant in their assumptions that their deity is the only whatever.


G

Originally posted by babloyi
Not sure if I understand your point, madness. Taking your criteria for the arrogance of certain religions, would that mean that anyone who believes that there are no extraterrestrial beings with intelligence equal to or greater than man is being arrogant?

no, i'd say that anyone who denies that there is even a possiblity would be a bit arrogant. though i'm personally agnostic on the issue of aliens because we don't have proof one way or another

Aliens generally being a physical entity, I'd not be uncomfortable in the definite assertion that they do not exist.

well, there's really no way to assert either position and back it up...

After all, with the universe being as large as it is, if there is proof of (or the assumption of) one other super-intelligent alien species, it would be reasonable to assume that there would be countless other super-intelligent alien species.

well... i'm not even arguing super-intelligent, i'm taling approx. human level

If there were countless super-intelligent alien species, it would be reasonable to assume that at least one would have the capability to travel to our planet.

if they could overcome the issues of transit.... which are pretty big

If one species has the capability to travel to our planet, it would be reasonable to assume that there are countless alien species capable of travelling to our planet. If there are countless alien species capable of travelling to our planet, it would be reasonable to assume that we would have certifiable proof of at least one.

well, now you're assuming that the universe is infinitely filled with planets capable of supporting life. the universe is infinite in that it has infinite room not infinite matter. there are probably a insanely small number of planets capable of supporting life, and an even smaller number that end up developing it, then there's probably an even smaller chance that a remotely intelligent species develops (let alone one more intelligent than us, and yes i called humans remotely intelligent), then you have to factor in how many of those species don't wipe themselves out...

See? There is arrogance whichever option you choose. I prefer the simpler arrogance that we are the only species in the universe with an intelligence at the level that it is (and not greater). As unfortunate (or arrogant) as it is, some things are of greater importance than others.

there isn't arrogance in the assertion that there may be more intelligent species.... all you did is throw out a relatively stupid argument that if there is one species on another planet that is intelligent there must be a countless number of them because the universe is huge
there's zero logic in there

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Because God's purpose of creating the Earth was for us. Who else did he create it for, squirrels? We are the only beings here capable of cognitive thought...

but you can't back that without going for the arrogant assumption that cognitive thought is the ultimate deciding factor. hell, there's no evidence to even support your claim that said being designed this planet to begin with...

If cognitive thought, that which makes us inherently human, is not the ultimate deciding factor, then what is?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Oh, I can think of many religions which are much more arrogant. Such as religions that say certain families are to be worshiped as gods, and religions that demand human sacrifices.

that's not arrogant, that's IGNORANT.

It is also arrogant to think that you should be worshiped as a god or people should sacrifice themselves for no personal gain to you. These are two examples of ARROGANCE and IGNORANCE. Both apply.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
then why the hell did WE get jesus?
that's the point. earth gets jesus, everyone else doesn't... that's a fairly arrogant assertion.

How do you know that God did not reveal himself to his other creations? That's a pretty arrogant assumption on your part too, its not like you sat down with a bunch of aliens and discussed religion with them. And, I'm glad to see that you finally acknowledged Jesus was sent by God.

Originally posted by DarkSide

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Because God's purpose of creating the Earth was for us. Who else did he create it for, squirrels? We are the only beings here capable of cognitive thought.

Well here's a prime example of arrogance that proves the OP's point.
First of all, most primates (humans are primates,ok?), dolphins, whales, orcas, etc are capable of thought and are self-aware. Does the bible apply to dolphins also then?

Don't forget ravens and octopuses, DarkSide. There is so much more to cognitive science than just self-awareness. But, I have to go to work now and will be back in 4 hours. See you then. In the meantime, study up on the subject.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
my assertion: religion is arrogant

The human ego is naturally arrogant. I hope I don't offend you, but I must speak the truth...you are often arrogant, too - no different than a religious person. We ALL do that! We don't see it..but others do.

Please don't think I am picking on you. I wouldn't say anything at all if I didn't have the respect for you that I do!

How do you define arrogance? I think of it as a lack of humility. dictionary.com says it is:

offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride.

Something human beings do for an unlimited number of reasons...religion is one of them but not the only one.

The arrogance of Religion is not so much about what is believed as it is about intentionally confusing Belief with Knowledge. Almost all organized religions attempt to do it. That's arrogant.

Belief and Faith do not equal Knowledge and Certainty. It is ignorance, since the word has been thrown out there, to allow someone to confuse you about the difference.

I think that those that have Belief and Faith can still question, learn, grow, and change. Those with claimed Knowledge and Certainty show that they are not prepared to learn since you cannot learn anything if you cannot allow for the fact that you may be wrong about what you already think.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
The arrogance of Religion is not so much about what is believed as it is about intentionally confusing Belief with Knowledge. Almost all organized religions attempt to do it. That's arrogant.

Excellent point. Yet, again, it is not something exclusive to religion. I am not advocating religion at all - personally I have no regard for public spirituality and feel it is dying a justified death.

BUT if we are going to criticize we should be honest. We are blaming institutions for our own human tendencies. This is the sort of dysfunctional coping system that has stagnated the human race for 7,000 years. The blame game is deadly and corrosive.

Unless we can understand our own inherent, universally shared shortcomings AND strengths...as the human race en mass...we can not hope to overcome nor improve the human condition. And if we don't start doing something different, we are going to commit suicide as a race and it will probably give the universe a sigh of relief.

OTOH, when we DO get through this and things transform stagnation into prosperity, the universe will certainly cheer us on and throw a party, besides.

Belief and Faith do not equal Knowledge and Certainty. It is ignorance, since the word has been thrown out there, to allow someone to confuse you about the difference.

None of those 4 things can stand alone or in part...all 4 comprise a complete view of creation...ignorance is just not knowing. That is okay.

It is insecurity and fear which cause us to prematurely name our 'incomplete understandings' as 'fact' before we proceed to try to force it on others in order to justify it and delude us into a false sense of security.

Opinions are incomplete understandings. As long as we don't make them into something more than they are or force feed them, they are GOOD tools and necessary for growth.

I think that those that have Belief and Faith can still question, learn, grow, and change. Those with claimed Knowledge and Certainty show that they are not prepared to learn since you cannot learn anything if you cannot allow for the fact that you may be wrong about what you already think.

I totally agree. The expert can learn nothing but the beginner is continually growing. But I don't believe that true knowledge and certainty can be legitimately acquired without a certain degree of RATIONAL belief and faith. There is such a thing - logic does not mean the same as possible OR probable - and even the most unlikely, seemingly inexplicable ideas or events can (and must) be proven with logic and reason.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
well, now you're assuming that the universe is infinitely filled with planets capable of supporting life. the universe is infinite in that it has infinite room not infinite matter. there are probably a insanely small number of planets capable of supporting life, and an even smaller number that end up developing it, then there's probably an even smaller chance that a remotely intelligent species develops (let alone one more intelligent than us, and yes i called humans remotely intelligent), then you have to factor in how many of those species don't wipe themselves out...

The universe does not have infinite room OR matter. I just said "large". What's the current estimate? 150 billion light years?

You are saying that there "are probably a insanely small number of planets capable of supporting life, and an even smaller number that end up developing it, then there's probably an even smaller chance that a remotely intelligent species develops". ARROGANCE! Why shouldn't there be hundreds of thousands of human level intelligence (BTW, that's what I meant be super-intelligent) life-forms out there? What, are you saying that there are only 2, or 3, or 4? ARROGANCE!

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
there isn't arrogance in the assertion that there may be more intelligent species.... all you did is throw out a relatively stupid argument that if there is one species on another planet that is intelligent there must be a countless number of them because the universe is huge
there's zero logic in there

There is arrogance in the assertion that the number is limitted. If there can be 1, and you say that it's arrogance to assume that we are the only one, then it's arrogance to assume that there are ONLY 2, or ONLY 3, or ONLY 4. The only way not to be arrogant if you assume the existence of other human-level intelligent life-forms is to assume that there are many, many such species.

The problem with this assumption is, that in the time since the beginning of the habitable universe, in the space available for all these life-forms to flourish, there would have to be at least ONE species that developed enough to come and prove themselves to us, despite the massive problems that may be in the way of space-travel.

That's what I meant. Whatever you say, do, or wish, one thing has to come up on top of another. One thing will be more important than the rest. One species will be more intelligent than the rest. It may be arrogance to think that, but it's also truth.

Okay I'm back. Darkside, if you're still there, cognitive thought is not just self-awareness. It also deals with the abilities to:

- plan ahead or develop plans
- judging things based on morality
- reasoning skills, both inductive and deductive
- imagine things that are far past the capabilities of what
a human can actually do, such as walking on the sun
- much much more!

I dont agree with chirstianity saying god sent down his ONLY son to save humanity. But then again, I view that more as a religious OPINION more then fact. Face it, every religion wants to prove they are the "chosen one", especially christianity. Even if it means twisting the truth.

I beleive Jesus is the savior of HUMANITY. No one should assume jesus touched down on ever planet in his human body and saved everyone else on top of it. He is our savior. I know its hard to understand for someone who may have never thought of it that way before. but thats the way I see it. Christ is the savior of humanity, not the rest of the universe. Its a story exclusive to us. It is arrogant to assume and force that idea on the rest of the universe.

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Okay I'm back. Darkside, if you're still there, cognitive thought is not just self-awareness. It also deals with the abilities to:

- plan ahead or develop plans
- judging things based on morality
- reasoning skills, both inductive and deductive
- imagine things that are far past the capabilities of what
a human can actually do, such as walking on the sun
- much much more!

Your so special.

Originally posted by nisurastar
Christ is the savior of humanity, not the rest of the universe. Its a story exclusive to us. It is arrogant to assume and force that idea on the rest of the universe.

A story exclusive to US.

That is beautiful. And I agree.

If Christ is the express image of love and God IS love and Jesus was born from a human body...then Christ Jesus is the embodiment of love in a human body.

And the prepositional phrases such as 'born from a' and such can be understood on various perspective prismatic levels. Therefore manifesting for many individual souls in the necessary fashion...to bring about the new world in which we realize we all are ONE.

O vercomers
N earing
E quality

in

C ompassionate
H ero
R evealing
I mmortal
S oul
T raining

with

G ood
O rderly
D irection

Originally posted by DarkSide
Your so special.

I believe you meant "You're so special."

Forgive me, I'm a grammar nazi.