The Declining Middle class and the Coming Civil War

Originally posted by SEEWHATUDO
Speaker- I respect the hell out of you!!!

But I have to ask a couple of questions, if only 2% of the population makes over $125,000 who the hell is buying up all of these $600,000++++++ homes down here in Georgia.

Firstly, I greatly appreciate the compliment. I really do.

What you addressed here is part of the problem with our economy. You have people who average 50-80 thousand dollars a year buying homes that are 300 thousand dollar homes and over. Who is to blame? Both the lender and the borrower. The lender is to blame for mortgaging such an expedenture, and the borrower is to blame for being naive enough to think that he she can make payments on a home that costs 450,000 dollars on an income of 50-80 thousand dollars...

[edit on 22-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

War is always for resources. There may be everything from religion to morales used to mask that fact, but at the bottom of it is resources. One group feels the pressure of expansion from another.

When you expand the lowest class to a critical mass, you have civil war, about which very little is truly civil.

Most of the discussion here has been about the squeeze put on the middle class. They feel that the rich and the poor are taking their share. The companies overcharge them and underpay them, and the poor eat up their taxes.

But these people in the middle class do have an option, they can become poor. They may not like it, they may bitch and moan, but when they stop and consider that it's either that or dodge bullets, they'll do it.

But the poor have no where to fall. There is no lower rung on the ladder. There is nowhere to go except the grave.

When a critical mass of fairly healthy poor are reached, revolt becomes inevitable. When faced with the choice of seeing their children die, or fighting with pitchforks, mothers and fathers will fight. While an adult human might give in, an adult parent is far less likely to. This is the reason so many Mexicans die in our deserts every year.

The revolt will come when the poor have no options left to them. When there is nothing left to lose. The middle class will then join them because they fear becoming poor, and see fighting now as better than waiting till they lose even more. A certain number of the "near rich" will join in on the side of the revolution as a means of hiding their past greed.

BUT, herein lies that moment when what is gained through revolution is worse than what was endured during oppression. Leaders will always step forward, and many of them will be themselves among the very "upper crust" that is being fought, though never in the very top tier. And these leaders, rich or poor, are usually seeking to better themselves.

Be very careful what you wish for, as a greater evil often springs from the intentions of the greater good.

NGC, what you said just basically reverts back to what I said earlier. There is such a dwindling down that it almost appears as if we are approaching the time when there are only going to be two economic classes. The super rich and the super poor.

Originally posted by NGC2736
, as a greater evil often springs from the intentions of the greater good.

Unfortunately, almost invariably it does.

It seems that we have been in an inflationary decline for some time. I happen to be fortunate enough to have a skilled trade that is always in demand, but even with that I find it is getting harder and harder to get by. I can only imagine what it may be like to struggle under a debt load in this day and age. My family is frugal but we are finding descrectionary [sp] spending to be dwindling at a high rate. At one time we could afford to eat out at a nice restaurant weekly, but now we generally will eat fast food on those opportunities. It is easy to let prices slip by when you use credit. When you only use cash for groceries you tend to notice that staples are on th increase. Coupled with higher fuel costs many are being forced into desperate measures. And if you weren't savvy enough to understand the benefits of a fixed rate mortgage, I would think things could get near to unbearable in the near future. Inflation is here and has crept up on the majority of the populace, they just don't realize it yet. It is really ashame that basic civics isn't taught in our schools any more. It seems that the younger generations cannot even balance a checkbook anymore.

I see too many in these "economics threads" that blame all the woes of the American economy on the poor. There is the mentality that those on the lower economic scale are just dragging down all the hard working middle class folks. That the money paid to those on some form of what used to be called welfare, is the reason America can't keep up. That isn't true, and most people know in their heart's that it isn't.

First off, yes, there is fraud in these systems. It happens, but it is not the norm. It makes a good "shame" story for MSM to run, it gets a lot of heads to start nodding. But the real fact is that it's one more level of government offices and paid workforce. A large portion of the money goes to pay for those hired to run these programs.

And the government takes great pains to make sure that it's a lot harder to get off the rolls than it is to get on. Can anyone say job security? The money is just barely enough to almost live on, but never enough to get ahead and out of the system.

I draw Social Security, which I PAID for. It's not a gift or a handout, I paid into the system for most of my adult life. The last few years before I was old enough to draw it, I couldn't command the high salaries that I had in my younger years, but struggled on using savings and whatever, to reach retirement. And what did the government do?

They ignored all the high earning years, where I had paid in as high as 1/8 of my wages, money which the Fed got to use interest free for 30 plus years, and instead figured in only the last five quarters. They took the point where I was old and not re-trainable, earning next to nothing, and used it as the basis of my Social Security payments.

So now, I draw less than $800.00 per month, to live on in modern America. I have this wonderful new Medicare Plan, which is a boatload of crap. I have the same high fuel costs, food costs, insurance costs, as everyone else. I still pay the taxes on my house and personal property, plus a boatload of hidden and built-in taxes.

Worse yet, when my wife reaches the age to draw SS, I will lose just as much as she gains, unless we get a divorce and just live together. The only net gain will be her medical benefits. (And being a bit old fashioned, I don't have to mention she doesn't like the idea of living together. )

Welcome to reality concerning we poor (less than $10,000 a year ) that are dragging down all you middle class workers. But just think, for all the whining and crying you're doing now, wait till they screw you too.

Originally posted by NGC2736
Welcome to reality concerning we poor (less than $10,000 a year ) that are dragging down all you middle class workers. But just think, for all the whining and crying you're doing now, wait till they screw you too.

NGC, honestly, I don't see where you're getting the idea that the poor are being blamed here...

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


I could say, trust me it's coming, but I won't. What I was trying to point out is in line with my earlier post about how the squeeze comes to the poor first as we edge towards "whatever". When the idea comes up of people living beyond their means, and to just "get a better job", most people see the "haords" of the poor as a reason. And it's just a matter of time, if things go on the way they are, before the ranks of the poor swell.

Many people in America are not living beyond their means.

And I wasn't aiming the post at anyone here, just making a comment in accordance to what I hear on forums regularly.

Peace.

[edit on 25-12-2007 by NGC2736]

I highly doubt that it's the fault of the poor bringing down the middle class. I beginning to think that it is a mix of our (the middle classes) fault, along with big buisnesses for enticing use with useless garbage we don't need, but we buy anyway just to look cool and gain "friends". And then, the third main contributor to our problems I would say is the banks. And I say that, because look who gives out the credit cards: banks. What better way to entice the people further into debt by giving out a loan in the form of a plastic card, and then hit them with unjustifiably high intrest rates?

But, I do wonder, what if instead of an all out shooting war, the next civil war goes into ultra-unconventional methods? Like, say, every middle class American declaring bankruptcy at the same time? What do you think would happen if we just tried collectivly to drain the system so bad that it implodes upon itself?

reply to post by seeker83



Honestly, I think it's more the fault of the powers that be, really. Although, as I have said here and else where, people's seeming need to live above and beyond their means is also a contributing factor.

Use your brain. It's all about the NU. (North American Union). The current state of the U.S. economy couldn't be more intentional than it is. First bring half of Mexico the the U.S. to take all of the jobs while simultaneously sending the jobs that are left to Mexico, China, India, etc. The U.S. economy is going down the toilet while the Mexican economy and the economies of all of the other third world nations are booming. The coming depression will create civil unrest and widespread violence which will give big brother the ammo that they need to completely suspend the Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc. so that they can squeeze us together with Canada & Mexico. Who would have ever thought that countries like France, Italy, etc. could just be turned into weak little states? They have been for a while now, which is why they have the Euro. It's coming here next, so get ready for the Amero.

Even though myself and my family have suffered greatly over the years because of all of the outright tyranny going on in the U.S., I must say that the majority of U.S. citizens brought it on themselves. It is considered "Un-PC" to mention the fact that English is now the unofficial second language of the United States. Legal American citizens of all races will soon be the minority. Rather than speak up about the fact that most of the neighborhoods in America are now located in the center of Mexico, people would just hire an illegal rather that a starving American or better yet, intermarry and teach their kids how to speak Spanish. They wonder why everything is going to hell all of the sudden. "Mabey if I vote Democrat or Republican it will get better"?

I have seriously considered finding a way to renounce my U.S. citizenship and take up a Mexican one so that I could enjoy all of the perks and benefits that they do. For example: I could drink and drive all that I wanted to, if I were busted now I would have to pay an $11,000 dollar fine but if I was an illegal I could just be given a "warning". I wouldn't need a license, registration, tags, insurance, etc. either. I could actually AFFORD to drive a car. If I finally DID go to jail, I would just say "no comprede" and they would give me the title of "John Doe". Rather that go to court like citizens here do, I could just go a few miles across the border and visit with the ol' famalia and come back under a different alias. My wife and I could also afford to have kids. Most legal working class citizens can barley afford to pay their rent, let alone pay to have kids, but if I was an illegal I could afford to have all that I wanted to plus medical, dental, etc. to boot. I could breed my own little pack of "anchor babies" and be sent a big ol' check to feed them with. The best part is that when I wanted to retire to Baja I could just tell the gov't that I have been working illegally for 90 days or more so that they would sent me my SSI retirement check back "home" to Mexico FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE...

...or I could just stand in line at the unemployment office starving to death. If you think that I'm making this stuff up do a little research of your own. As U.S. laws are set up now, illegals can basically do whatever they want to. Americans on the other hand, can't go five feet without getting fined or arrested, which is why we have the highest incarceration rate in the world. You can't bring deodorant or mouthwash onto an airplane for reasons of "national security" but you can bring an entire family across the border in broad daylight, completely unnoticed. Tell me that it is not completely intentional and I will laugh in your face.

Welcome to America! "Land of the free and home of the brave!" Just remember, whatever you do, DON'T become a LEGAL citizen here or else they will expect you to be ACCOUNTABLE for your actions. The will treat you like a second class citizen! LOL!

Do you know what "Hate Speech" really is? "Hate Speech" is when a person states the obvious.

Honestly i'm sick and tired of the class warfare that is going on. The only ones that are to blame for this whole mess is not wall street or the poor or anyone except for washington and the well intentioneers. What this nation was based on is the best system that has come to pass yet. Free enterprise and freedom to do and be anything you set out to be. What we have become is a nation of whinners and self pittyers. And I for one am sick of it. The ones in power want only one thing more power. And what is the best way of getting more power thru infighting I.E. class warfare. My self i want to be the best i can be and have the most i can have its not greed that drives me it's success. If i can help someone out along the way then so much the better for me. I am not my brothers keeper but i will lend a hand when it is deserved. We have become a nation of people that expect good things to be handed to them. Well that is not how this nation started and it is not how this nation will continue. If you want good things then you must work for them. I have and i consider myself to be a better person for it. I believe and have faith in the american people but the american people must first have faith in themselves. I am not rich by any means but i am rich in life. The american people have been sold a bill of goods that is not worth the paper it is written on. I'm sorry to all those that have worked their whole lives believing that government will always be there to bail them out. You believed in a system setup to fail. There is only one thing in this life you can believe in and that one thing is YOU. The sooner this nation realizes that the sooner this nation will experiance unimagined growth and prosperity. It is the well intentioneers that have brought about this stumble in our nations history. They are the one that said hey its ok if you fail we will help you out. Then they said hey we know you want better things for yourself so we will make it possible for you to get those things. Well you can't just be handed things and expect better things life does not work like that. If they did is there anyone out there that would work their ass off to better themselves. The answer is no. I am affraid for this nation and what she must go thru in the next few years. I pray that civil war will not once again come to her. However every day i get up and read, hear, or watch the news is a day that we inch one step closer to civil war. For you see every nation and man has a breaking point. And those that love the fundamentals of what this nation was founded on. We know that the breaking point is near. And i will stand up for this nation and fight because i fight for what is right and good in this life and in this nation. I will do this not out of joy or exuberance but out of pain and anguish over our nation's future. I can only harken back to the day of this nation's founding and can see and moreover feel now clearly what our nations forefathers saw and felt when they took the first steps towards founding our great nation. If there are not those of like mind that will stand up for this nation. Then i am affraid that we all will see in our lifetime our great nation vanish into the pages of history. Lost for all time on the intentions of the good intentioneers and those that are only hungry for power. Have I not ears to hear, have I not eyes to see, have I not a mouth to speak. I pray that the american people have all of these and will use them to stand for this nation before it is too late.
Sincerely
An American Patriot
P.S. This i not a dem or repub thing, a red or a blue thing, or a rich or a poor thing, this is an american thing. Do you believe in yourself and this nation? The answer is up to you.

Only folks like the OP can make civil war a reality by preaching doomsday time after time after time.

reply to post by Southern Guardian



Well, honestly, I don't think that it's an inevitability, but I think it rather naive to dismiss the notion.