"I believe our government can once again work for all Americans. It can promote the great American tradition of opportunity for all and special privileges for none." Hillary Clinton

Since when is that the governments job? What tradition is she talking about? The government cant do anything right. Why does anyone want them in charge of Everything?

She's a scary lady to me. I dread the thought.

*shudder

Since when is the "great American tradition of oppurtunity" the governments problem? You're absolutely right, Gator. This is the danger that Leftists from her era present to our country.

Wasn't the American tradition the advancement of our society through competition and ambition? Isn't what she is implying a "special privelege" in itsself? She seems to be a confused woman.

Scary indeed.

partchimp, you completely misunderstand the premise of socialism in this situation. at its most basic socialism is a system in which everyone at least subsists on certain rights... healthcare, food, shelter, education etc.

now, that works perfectly with competition because nobody is going to want subsistence food, subsistence shelter, and no entertainment. a socialist society competes for achievement, not for surivival... and isn't that what we're already doing?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
partchimp, you completely misunderstand the premise of socialism in this situation. at its most basic socialism is a system in which everyone at least subsists on certain rights... healthcare, food, shelter, education etc.

now, that works perfectly with competition because nobody is going to want subsistence food, subsistence shelter, and no entertainment. a socialist society competes for achievement, not for surivival... and isn't that what we're already doing?

can you name some prosperous socialist societys that operate in the manner you speak? I understand the US has some aspects of socialism embedded into our society thanks to idiot politicians and stupid voters, i'm saying this incase you throw that at me to divert.

nobody wants anything given to them?.. take a good look at welfare and food stamps. people love handouts and people in this country are lazy, infact politicians bank on people being lazy.

I also believe individuals should compete for higher achievement not only to better the society they are apart of but for individual prosperity and a better life for his/her family. I'm perfectly capable of taking care of my family and I dont need any help from ' society ' to do this, I can handle it as an individual.

[edit on 31-5-2007 by ape]

Call her what you want. Hillary is the Corporate world's Democratic pick.

You want to change things?

Don't vote for Hillary.

If you really want to change things, you should vote for Obama or Edwards.

Or Gore, if, God willing, he runs again.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Call her what you want. Hillary is the Corporate world's Democratic pick.

You want to change things?

Don't vote for Hillary.

If you really want to change things, you should vote for Obama or Edwards.

Or Gore, if, God willing, he runs again.

voting for obama or edwards would also be a disaster. the most qualified candidate the democrats have is bill richardson. al gore? laugh.

Originally posted by ape
the most qualified candidate the democrats have is bill richardson. al gore? laugh.

Bill Richardson? lol

you obviously didn't see his performance on meet the press this past sunday? It was disasterous. He lost his #. lol

He will not be the next president.

Originally posted by ape
can you name some prosperous socialist societys that operate in the manner you speak? I understand the US has some aspects of socialism embedded into our society thanks to idiot politicians and stupid voters, i'm saying this incase you throw that at me to divert.

let me put it to you this way: can you name one country that's attempted such a bare-bones socialist system?

nobody wants anything given to them?.. take a good look at welfare and food stamps. people love handouts and people in this country are lazy, infact politicians bank on people being lazy.

so everyone that is or ever was on foodstamps was lazy... nice job of insulting my family there. my family was on foodstamps for about 5 years while my dad was working 3 jobs and getting his graduate degrees.. food stamps help people that need help. and people in this country aren't lazy because of handouts, they're lazy because they aren't motivated to achieve. we shouldn't be forced out of laziness to get off our butts and earn money for food, we should be kicked out of that habit because we want to achieve more.

I also believe individuals should compete for higher achievement not only to better the society they are apart of but for individual prosperity and a better life for his/her family.

ok... good for you. but the problem in that reasoning is that bettering society leads to betterment of individual prosperity...

I'm perfectly capable of taking care of my family and I dont need any help from ' society ' to do this, I can handle it as an individual.

alright, but what if you get injured? what if you go insane? are you aware that the majority of the homeless population in this nation is in need of a psychiatrist? yes, mental illness is one of the primary causes of homelessness. everyone can handle these things as an individual... but sometimes people need some help getting a start.

let me put it to you this way: can you name one country that's attempted such a bare-bones socialist system?

no I cant because that kind of socialism is pure fantasy and would never happen nor work in the manner suggested.

so everyone that is or ever was on foodstamps was lazy... nice job of insulting my family there. my family was on foodstamps for about 5 years while my dad was working 3 jobs and getting his graduate degrees.. food stamps help people that need help. and people in this country aren't lazy because of handouts, they're lazy because they aren't motivated to achieve. we shouldn't be forced out of laziness to get off our butts and earn money for food, we should be kicked out of that habit because we want to achieve more.

chill out on all the emotion, please point out where I state everyone on food stamps and welfare are lazy? I said take a good look at those programs and how much they are abused and yes they are abused bad. getting free checks in the mail on behalf of US tax payers gets alot of people in a comfort zone which is hard to break out of once you get used to it. I wont deny that it helps alot of people who actually need it however it is abused and that's a fact.

ok... good for you. but the problem in that reasoning is that bettering society leads to betterment of individual prosperity...

it's the individual that's the building block of society not the other way around. individual rights and freedoms are a staple in this country that's constantly under attack by neo liberals and cons.

alright, but what if you get injured? what if you go insane? are you aware that the majority of the homeless population in this nation is in need of a psychiatrist? yes, mental illness is one of the primary causes of homelessness. everyone can handle these things as an individual... but sometimes people need some help getting a start.

injured? covered by my work and my insurance. insanity? show me the stats that state the majority of homeless have mental problems? fact is alot of them made bad decisions in life and are addicted to alot of drugs such as meth which is taking over this country like crack did in the 80's.

the government isn't the answer to everything infact they only make things worse and are irresponsible with money.



[edit on 1-6-2007 by ape]

I don't need to respond point to point, cause ape did a good job of it already.

However, I do want to say 1 thing. It makes me mad as hell that the government takes my money and gives it to another (generally in the most rediculous, non-transparent, and inefficient manner possible).

Even if they could streamline the programs and make them work right, it comes down to this. NO ONE has more right to my money than me and my family.

And no, I don't care how bad your life is either.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
However, I do want to say 1 thing. It makes me mad as hell that the government takes my money and gives it to another (generally in the most rediculous, non-transparent, and inefficient manner possible).

Governement is maddeningly inefficient, to be sure. I served in the Army so I know all about it from one end to the other.

I'm a true believer in you get what you pay for.

But some people have nothing. Nowhere to turn. They need help.

NO ONE has more right to my money than me and my family.

I can't disagree with that. But it boils down to this: the doctrine of Jesus. Love one another. What does that mean? It means caring enough to lend a hand wherever you can. Nothing more, nothing less.

And no, I don't care how bad your life is either.

This is one thing that is most wrong with our country. A complete disregard for those around us.

It is a riot to read the posts where people really believe they achieved their status in life on their own....You have done NO such thing.

You were educated in a Public school most of your life, protected by public servants that policed your streets and put out your fires. Your water is brought to you, your electricity and Gas through public works projects.
Your food is regulated by public safety agencies, and transportation systems maintained by state and federal agencies.
When things go wrong, you call the very politicians you deride and demand satisfaction for perceived slights.

Get a grip....the building block of any society is how you treat the least person in it, not the worship of people that clawed their way to the top.

External Source

“Many of you are well off enough that [President Bush’s] tax cuts may have helped you. We’re saying that for America to get back on track, we’re probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We’re going to have to take things away from you. We’re going to have to have to take things away from you on behalf of the common good.” -Hillary Clinton, San Francisco 6/28/2004





Senator Clinton is talking to people that paid 10,000 a plate to hear her speak...hell yea they should lose luxury tax breaks. The same people that whine about taxes are the ones that whine there isnt enough police, why there are 35 kids to a class, why there isnt more enforcement of the law...on and on...

Keep cutting taxes, keep watching the USD dollar slip, and the economy losing its foundation.

Originally posted by Hallberg Rassy
Senator Clinton is talking to people that paid 10,000 a plate to hear her speak...hell yea they should lose luxury tax breaks. The same people that whine about taxes are the ones that whine there isnt enough police, why there are 35 kids to a class, why there isnt more enforcement of the law...on and on...

Why should they lose their tax cuts? Simply because they are wealthy?

And fyi, "whining" about those things you mentioned is not limited to the wealthy.

And... throwing money at a problem is not always the way to solve it.

yes, they should lose their tax cuts because they are wealthy.


Deficits are skyrocketing yearly, the public debt is out of control, the root of this is unrestrained Deficit Spending. This comes from inept budget planning including cutting taxes while increasing spending.

we have 400 Billion dollars just for the iraqi war..and only because china is buying US debt are we able to fund the war. The Debt that China buys carries interest, which your children will be paying for the next 90 years.

thats why the wealthy should lose their tax cuts.

Originally posted by Hallberg Rassy


It is a riot to read the posts where people really believe they achieved their status in life on their own....You have done NO such thing.

You were educated in a Public school most of your life, protected by public servants that policed your streets and put out your fires. Your water is brought to you, your electricity and Gas through public works projects.
Your food is regulated by public safety agencies, and transportation systems maintained by state and federal agencies.
When things go wrong, you call the very politicians you deride and demand satisfaction for perceived slights.

Get a grip....the building block of any society is how you treat the least person in it, not the worship of people that clawed their way to the top.

what's a riot is when people like yourself disregard reality, I think it's you who needs to get a grip. you should know that mine and everyone else who works in this country legally has their tax dollars go into the public schools, police/fire dept, social programs and the federal/state governments. without the tax base these places cannot operate. things only go wrong when morons in charge cannot handle the task at hand. it's as simple as being efficient and serving the public who funds this efficiency. it's almost as if our government is working its hardest to be inefficient. since we are talking about being efficient I dont think our public schools nor the federal government should be involved in the conversation considering they are failures.

you talk about the treatment of the' least ' person in society as the building block? if it's through a non profit / profit charity and not operated by government then i'm in total agreement since it would be a personal choice as an individual to donate and help out. who do you consider the least in society? you love class warfare dont you? I'm all for helping people and I look forward to employing many people when I own my own business in the future however we have many different ways of going about ' treating ' people. personally I would encourage anyone to do whatever they can to get ahead even if it means working 2 jobs considering I had to do it myself at one point in my life or going for a higher education. hell even getting a GED or diploma if they dont have one, plenty of classes out there.

right now we have out of control spending, wide open borders in a 'war on terror', amnesty being pushed by our elected ' leaders ' oh and lets not forget socialized medicine constantly being pushed by the left. yeah so what happens when amnesty is granted and these illegals are allowed to have family come over which is apart of this bill and access to social programs?? how would socialized medicine even work with these numbers? why would anyone trust the federal government to be responsible for their health when they cannot even run a balanced and responsible government?

also you throw that number out about how much it costs to fund the iraq war. did you know we spend as a society more in 2 years just to comply with the federal tax code? 300 billion dollars a year to comply with the federal tax code. 59 trillion dollars owed in liabilities over the next 50 years and each american household would owe over 560,000 dollars. the next 20 - 30 years are going to be interesting, I hope you know how to use a gun and are familiar with nature.




[edit on 5-6-2007 by ape]

Originally posted by Hallberg Rassy
yes, they should lose their tax cuts because they are wealthy.

Penalize those who earn a living.
Penalize those who are SMART enough to make more money.

It's jealousy .. if you can't (or won't) work for a living then take away what others have just to make yourself feel better, eh?

Originally posted by ape
the most qualified candidate the democrats have is bill richardson.

I fully agree.

Obama is running on that he's half-black. That's it. He is NOT qualified and has no experience.

Hillary is qualified and has experience ... but she's up to her eyeballs in bad (and illegal) behavior (Vince Foster .. whitewater ... chinagate ... lies and lies and lies).

Richardson has the qualifications and the foreign policy experience. He's the only one that makes sense to elect for the dems... of course that means the dems won't go for him.

However, in the end I fret that we will have President Hillary. The only consolation we can take from a President Hillary is that it isn't a President Obama.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Penalize those who earn a living.

yeah, $3 million is "a living"

Penalize those who are SMART enough to make more money.

myth myth MYTH

there is no direct corollation between how smart you are and how much money you make.

so tell me, is paris hiltom really all that smart?