Evil America

On a several other threads this subject has come up repeatedly and I felt the need to start a thread of my own to explain my veiwpoint and see if any one out there agreed.

First off I agree America is Evil.

So is France, Germany, Russia, China, Spain, etc.

Government is inherantly Evil.

So is religion.

So is ANYTHING that holds power over people, if it did not start that way it WILL end up that way. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly.

So what we are left with is a choice between evils sometimes greater sometimes smaller some times the same.

I will take a evil where I am well fed and happy EVERY time. And so will most of you.

So when you are weeping and knashing your teeth over the big bad Americans just remember that the others out there arent any better and some are a lot worse.

Government started when a caveman picked up a club and beat the sh*t out of anybody who disagreed and it hasnt changed a bit.

That is the way of the world Get over it

Actually if you read the bible, going to the bathroom is evil.

Personally, this is the same how I feel. I always wanted to move out to Ireland, or another foreign country when I'm of legal age, but recently, America seems like the lesser of two evils. At least now for the time being, I can write this post and not be lynched.

Hey Amuk, got some good stuff there.

I disagree with you about government being evil, mainly because there is nothing that is absolute good or evil.

Not even in men and women, life is defined by the struggle between our good and bad sides.

So an assemblage of men can not be evil.

What it can be is a vehicle. It can be the tool that can be used to do evil things due to the resources it has.

Again, America is not evil. There have been a great number of things that have been evil, but nothing this big and complex can eb defined in such simplistic terms.


Side note: Julian, I'm pretty sure you were joking, but in the very slim case you weren't, I would love to see a reference for that bathroom thing.

Taking it from the post here

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Who claims your country is the the root of all evil? Noone does but maybe some terrorists.

First of all the word: evil in all its translations isn't used by anybody I ever knew for a country or people of a country. In germany the word evil is used in fairy tails and other stories which is probably why George W. Bush's division of earth in good and evil was pretty funny to most people in Europe.

Germany and I think I can speak at least for most European countries never ever hated the Americans citizens, why should we? Americans gave their life among french, british, russian and many others to fight the regime my ancestors were oppressed by.
In fact we are just upset about a few people in the USA, that's not the whole government it is George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz.
Condoleeza Rice is still a very respected person in Europe.

But still we don't think that those politicans are evil. We don't use those words, we use words like "idiots" or "fools" for them.
If you are upset that people say "The US politic in Iraq is bad" and are using the term US instead of writing George W. Bush you can take my word for granted that they don't think that the normal US citizen had any influence on this.

actually, it's a Simpsons quote...sorry.

Originally posted by julianvstheworld
actually, it's a Simpsons quote...sorry.

Haha, that's such a cool mistake. Way above those on tv shows

Originally posted by Amuk
Greetings back at you

I dont agree with bush either I think he is an idiot too I am just tired of all the american bashing going on by some people on this board it is true that we are not perfect and I think our pres. has his head up his AZZ but we have done a lot of good things too and I am glad to hear someone else say it. It just seems to me that a lot of people seem to think we are bad guys and anyone with any sense should know that countries do things for there own reasons ALL of which are selfish.we went to war because it was in our best interest, or at least we were told, yall did not join because it was NOT in your interests to do so. No big deal business as usual all the way around. I am not an idealest I do NOT see this as a battle between giood and evil but it is between us and them and I back us the home team and you would do the same. Its a good discussion I would like to take it to the evil america thread if you wish to talk futher on the subject

And yes it was a bad joke

Welcome to the club
- I as a german can tell you that we live with prejiduces which result in our country being bashed as well. I completly understand your frustration but I can assure you that your country has still something very good left in my opinion.

That is its national pride. All big countries have it, like France, Britain, Russia or Italy. But what's with Germany?

We should dare to show a bit national pride...a german flag in your house..or even in front of it? You are a Nazi. You don't agree with everything done by the Israeli government? Damn you are for sure a Nazi. You didn't like that poor people from everywhere(as people from Mexico for you) are getting high social security payments from your tax money? Damn you damn racist, f00king Nazi.

Germans are not allowed to show national pride, raise their voice against other countries or people from other countries. It is so frustrated, all people are bashing Germany like they bash the USA but when you comment on something and they realize you are from Germany...oh no there goes the tragedy.
I am very happy with ATS at the moment, so far the very very best community regarding that issue. Open-minded people who seem to got around very much in the world

The parallel between USA and Germany is quite easy now. Both countries got a bad reputation in very short time through a single leader. Of course Hitler played 10 leagues higher in the ultimate maniacs league but the reputation is bad for both.
But be happy! Your people aren't the ones which are unpopular, it is only your leadership. That's where the parallel splits, the german people aren't that much liked in western countries.

Disturbingly we are liked in poor countries(weee ), Italy(mussollini) and Arabic nation(killing jews in WW2 ). I am so happy when I can move out of Germany. Can you imagine that? I don't move because it is economicaly bad but our country has just no more identity. Oh I hate that

So, be happy with your country. Both aren't evil, they are good, very good.

[Edited on 5-1-2004 by shoo]

We should dare to show a bit national pride...a german flag in your house..or even in front of it? You are a Nazi. You don't agree with everything done by the Israeli government? Damn you are for sure a Nazi. You didn't like that poor people from everywhere(as people from Mexico for you) are getting high social security payments from your tax money? Damn you damn racist, f00king Nazi.

I understand completly.

I am from the South and it is the same here. Right now they are fighting over state flags, if your flag resembles the confedrate flag your state is racist and heaven forbid you should have a rebel flag ( I have one) then you are a klucker (ku klux klan). this is despite the fact when the klan came to our town to rally they were laughed out of town by everybody and have never came back and other than a few idiots everyone I know is for real equality you know everbody is treated the same.

My great grandfather was a hero in the civil war in the southern army but if I show pride in that I am a racist. The fact that my family NEVER owned slaves makes no difference

So, be happy with your country. Both aren't evil, they are good, very good.

Evil was meant more as a metaphore by which I meant that power over other people attracts bad people so that in the long run ALL governments become corrupt. For some one toi set back and say that we are bad and EVERY other country is good is incredably naive.

Even in WW2 hitler was a madman but was Stalin any better? and even though we held the morale high ground on this one still we firebombed and nuked civilians with the best of them.

And now people cry because we invaded iraq who cares saddam WAS a madman. they say you used to support him, well he was not the first maniac we supported and he wont be the last but for whatever reason we took the little bast*rd out and that was a good thing in it self. I think we did it for oil and for profit and that was a bad thing but again that is the way of the world and sooner or later we WILL leave and the iraqis will have there country back.

Look at the israelis and the palistinianes. Both sides are wrong and neither side will give an inch. Blowing up women and childern is wrong I dont give a d*mn which side you are on. Whats the answer? Who knows maybe let them wipe each other out or maybe send in the un?

I am just saying the world is grey. I have seen VERY little in my life that was black and white and those that think so are naive.

Shoo, man I hear you a thousand times.

Even here if you are against Israel, then you must hate Jews.

In America, you can not be a white man and have an opinion.

Pro-Life- You are a neanderthal who is against women's rights

Tougher immigration- and it always comes down to some Anti-Latino retoric..must be racist

Anti Israel- Anti Semite

Slavery kills most of our opinions for blacks

etc
etc
etc

I say screw em. I don't hate anyone who isn't an idiot. Period.

Well said you two and thanks for the information about your region Amuk!

I am afraid the low participation in this thread is of fear of being called a racist or whatever

am afraid the low participation in this thread is of fear of being called a racist or whatever

Its a shame that the world is so PC now that people are scared to even talk about it.

I for one, will speak my mind till the bitter end and those that dont like it can kiss my rebel azz

Its easier to blame a country or a race (sound familer) than to face the problems of the world head on and have to FIX the problem not just point a finger and whine

And shoo dont leave your home because of lack of pride be proud of who you are and screw them if they dont like it.

There is NOTHING racist about whites being proud of who they are any more than blacks or orientals or anyone else.

Everyone should be proud of who they are and strive to make themselves and there home a better place

Its a shame that the world has to be PC. You shouldn't think that way. The only reason we have the PC police is because folk are intolerant of anything and anyone with different beliefs. This topics are always hard to read because I feel for yall. It's pathetic but I still feel for you in a way.

You believe that america isn't racist but you sit from a stand point that doesn't feel it. How can you every black person be wrong...even black folk that stand on the right will tell you that the police racial profile--pull black folk over--just a few weeks ago the police arrested a doctor in LA for being black and in the wrong car. But, we always play the race card...the media plays the race card to you white people and it's sad. I actually would respect a Klan member before I respect a closet ignorant racist. Not that I respect either one...but at least one actually knows that what he believes instead of pretending like his okay cause he says he's not racist.

You believe that america isn't racist but you sit from a stand point that doesn't feel it. How can you every black person be wrong...even black folk that stand on the right will tell you that the police racial profile--pull black folk over--just a few weeks ago the police arrested a doctor in LA for being black and in the wrong car

I never said there wasnt racist people in america, of course they are. Do police profile? of course they do. Is it right? of course not and it should not be tolerated anywhere. I am against ANY form of racisiam so how can I be a closet racist?

NOONE should be abused for there race, religion, sexual prefferince, etc

Are white americans the only racists?

Of course black people can be racist. I have plenty of racist black folk in my family...and I don't go around excusing their racism or my own racism. It's PC to say I'm not racist. But, there is something suspect about someone that feels the need to seek validation. I think you maybe racist and in this country it's hard to face those views and really deal with them. You don't have to go all out and wear the sheet to be a racist. I think your defination is screwed and that was my point. Sorry for the bad presentation.

This topics are always hard to read because I feel for yall. It's pathetic but I still feel for you in a way.

I really dont understand this. I have NO problem with you being proud of your heratage why should you have a problem with me being proud of mine?

Why does it seem that if you are white and proud of your heratage THEN you are a racist. Is a black that is proud of his heratage racist?

To me racisiam is hating another race not being proud of your history. There is not a group of people out there that does not have things in that groups past that they did that were wrong.

For your imformation there is blacks, whites. indians, spainish and laotions in my family so we cant be too d*mn racist

I have plenty of racist black folk in my family...and I don't go around excusing their racism or my own racism.

It seems that maybe you are the one with the problem not me.

I find it much more satisifing to hate some one for who they are not there skin color or religion

Why is it so hard for you to accept that there are whites out there that dont hate blacks? do all blacks hate whites? I dont think so, or at least the one my cousin is married to seems to like them

Okay.

It's what you are embracing that makes it pathetic. I don't embrace the flag of the Nation of Islam...but it's part of my families past, present, and most certainly their future. It stands for racism and separatism just as the confederate flags stands for those things. There are other ways to embrace your heritage without embracing the symbol of the most blood divide in our nations history. The way you do it makes heritage a scapegoat for your racist feelings.

It wasn't easy for me to address my feelings on the issue, but I did. Having those beliefs are okay...still, you're racist. Its a bad thing about you, and its understandable that you don't want to accept it, and you want to make excuses and call it pride. Do what you do. I can only go off of my personal experience with my own racism and give you my opinion. You say ur embracing the good things in your heritage but that's a bad thing. How do your reconcile that?

The way you do it makes heritage a scapegoat for your racist feelings.

What racist feelings? You admit that you are a racist and for that I am sorry for you I hope that some day you can see beyond it.

Let me tell a quick story that might help make my point.

I used to have a cabinet shop and one day this wonderful older black couple that I grew up next door to came in to buy some cabinets, we concluded the deal and they left. OK a friend of mine was there and asked me why I would let "Those" people into my shop, I explained to him that these were two good people and if I had to chose who I let into the shop he could carry his AZZ out the door. I knew THOSE people all my life and two better people black or white would be hard to find.

I embrace the flag because my greatgrandfather fought under it no more no less. Just like I have my fathers medals and my own and will some day give them to my son. Its called history some of it is good some of it is bad. I am sorry that blacks were held in slavery but you know what? My G-G-G-G-G-Grandfather was scottish and guess how he wound up in america? he was sold as a slave. It was a long time ago and I dont hold the english, who wiped out nearly our whole clan by the way,as devils because of what there ancesters did.

Google Clan Mcgregor and you can learn the story. There is a freaking monument to where they beheaded us for gods sake.

Having those beliefs are okay...still, you're racist.

How am I a racist? because you say so?

How do your reconcile that?

I dont. I accept it just like I accept the english wiping our clan out, that was then this is now. I can be proud of my clan heratage without hating the english cant I? Why can I not be proud of my Greatgrandfathers bravery without hating blacks?

If you and the KKK want to fight it out be my guest just leave me out of it




[Edited on 6-1-2004 by Amuk]

You both are right, but definately coming from different places.

I am a white man, and thusly have been unconciously engrained with forms of racism due to the sheer fact of my race. Now true, racism today is not in your face, it's behind closed doors.

But blacks have been engrained with the same thing in a different way.

It is not racist to have feels that might be racist, because we as PEOPLE have been subjected to it our whole lives.

It is racist to NOT fight against these feelings and seek the truth in life.

This goes with almost all facits of life. Men/women relations, race, religion, etc.

I admit I have thoughts that are not right, but I certainly try to logic my way through them so I can try to weed them out.

It's the struggle of life.

Be proud of who you are and where you came from. But an education of things different than you is invaluble to curtailing these social teachings.

First, I'm not racist anymore and I have no problem with saying I was at one time. I grew beyond what I was taught as a child.

Secondly, there are many ways to honor your ancestors and your southern AMERICAN heritage. You put the emphasis on white. That to me is racist when it's done by black folk and when its done by white folk. The south has a rich heritage. It's only human to be proud of where you come from but when you embrace a symbol of hate...instead of the good things about being a southerner it makes one wonder...whether you want to address it or not the flag has a racist connotation and you can't wish it away because an ancestor you never met fought under it. You choose to use the banner of hatred. Spare me your stories of black friends and blended families...doesn't say much about you really that you gotta bring out the older black couple from your past to explain why you aren't racist. You don't have to prove it to me prove it to yourself.

If you and the KKK want to fight it out be my guest just leave me out of it

That's insulting when I've been anything but to up until this point. I didn't come on ats and announce my right to bare a banner of hatred, you did. You don't have to be in the KKK to be a racist in your heart.

Its easier to blame a country or a race (sound familer) than to face the problems of the world head on and have to FIX the problem not just point a finger and whine

That's a racist view point, my friend.

There is NOTHING racist about whites being proud of who they are any more than blacks or orientals or anyone else.

That's ignorant only racist say this because they feel threatened by the cultures of non-white races. American culture is not white--the southern culture is not white...Its belongs to all americans even me a midwesterner. Its exclusionary and racist.

These are the things that lead me to believe you harbor a racist attitude. You put so much stock in a flag of division to prove you have pride in something that is shameful and ugly...ah, well. I'm off it.

[Edited on 6-1-2004 by Saphronia]

Amuk,

right on man!

you said it like it is.