Obama is going to give America universal health care

Out of his own pockets?

More than likely this cost is going to come out of everyone’s paychecks---a nice chunk of every paycheck will go to pay for this government boondoggle. Say-la-vie to your money

Obama has NO ECONOMIC PLATFORM. None. He just blathers about what he wants and has no idea how to make it happen.

He has no experience and he has no idea what the heck he's doing.

He is running on the fact that he's half black.

It's a freak'n train wreck waiting to happen.

Nevertheless it worked for Jimmy Carter, and all he knew about was peanuts




Didn’t stop Bill Clinton




He has most if not all the black vote, a huge part of the Hispanic vote, and all of the left vote---those numbers can add up




America moving to the left as it did in the last election is a train wreck in progress; all we need now is the icing on the cake---a democrat president.

You know I always get purturbed whenever I even get in a situation that is remotely viewed as it could turn into a fight. Because I am not a fighter by any means. But you know just once I would love for a person to clock an old person around me .... I guess I wouldn't be fighting ... Because I would literally be trying to kill whom ever it was ...

Nor did bush other then giving the rich a tax brake.


And do you think Bush does? What about his father?


Better then repeating 9/11 until people start puking.


What the American economy, our foreign policy or our trade deficit?

Question:

IF it is possible for a private comany to charge $300 USD a year, make a profit and also to give health care at a fantastic level - why is it not possible for the Government to do the same and remove the profit? Thus reducing the amount taken and allowing more people (Primarily those from low income) access to Health Care?

OK take it from someone who lives in an country that has an government run health system. Your tax dollars already pay for other things so there is already limit as to how much an government can spend on health care. Then there is problem of money being diverted between buracratics, health care workers and the people who need health care.

Really it boils down to this an government run health care system tries to cater for everyone needs rather then yours and the end result is that elderly people who have paid tax dollars all there lives get taken off waiting lists and miss out on elective surgery. All of this after millions of dollars have been spend in attempted to reduce waiting lists.

Even if you don't go in for elective surgery they still ship you out as quick as possible after an operation because the bed is needed by someone else. There is nothing fantastic about government a run health care system.

[edit on 6-7-2007 by xpert11]

If the US stopped spending half of the federal budget on the military maybe, just maybe, some of that money could actually go and benefit the people who actually need it. You know, low income families with dependant children, the disabled, the elderly...

Besides, why should US tax dollars be spent on corporate subsidies, bailouts, grants, land and mineral giveaway's, and fat military contracts (to which there is little or no competitive bidding)? What puts those things on the top of the spending list, while human services such as welfare to dependant family, aid for the elderly, and social security in general, get slashed repeatedly?

Oh right...one makes a profit, while the other helps people sustain their lively hood.


Heaven forbid that your needs put below everyone elses in the country.

So your main gripe is that people cant get the surgery they want in a timely fashion, because others are getting surgery they need?




It is true, that currently the healthcare system in Canada is overworked, underfunded, and understaffed. Does that mean we should cancel the program and move to private insurance? Or does that mean we should overhaul the system, and our budget to better suite the healthcare needs of the citizens?

To the bolded:
What about the fact that everyone is given care and it wont send them into debt?

My mother is currently in pallative care, my family and I would be flat broke, with no place to live, if it were not for Canada's healthcare system. It may not be perfect, but im glad its there.

Well if the US was to put an stop to the corporate gravy train they could give people an tax cut which would mean that people would have money to spend on health care or what ever else they choose to spend there money on.

Who is to say that my needs for health care isnt greater then someone else's ?
While people wait for surgery there quality of life is adversary effected. The people on waiting lists deserve timely health care just as much as anyone else. The point is that the systems fails when the collective tries to cater for the whole.

No health care system is ever going to be perfect . The other side of the coin is that peoples tax dollars also pay for aspects of health care that they will never use. Well I live in New Zealand and not Canada and I would support steps towards having the free market play an greater role in health care locally.

The purpose of capitalism is to create that gravvy train, whereas democracy's purpose is to divert the flow back to the people. People dont need a 200 dollar tax credit, they need their government to support them the way it should.


If the healthcare you need is elective as you put in your example in your earlier post, i would hope someone like my mother would get in front of you in the line. My countries healthcare system works on a triage basis, the most needy go first, and frankly, i cant think of a betetr way.



As i said, if the system is failing due to underfunding (which is really the big issue, and the cause of such long waits for needed healthcare) then the answer is logically, to put more money into the system, and take more money out of corporate handouts.


If social healthcare was replaced with free market (capitalist) healthcare, it would further the class divide and force people to either live without healthcare, or destroy their lives with debt.

IMO the corporate gravy resembles socialism more then capitalism but I will leave that topic for another thread.
Why in the world should an government try to cater to peoples needs when there is options that involve people primary looking after there own needs ?
Your logic would be fine if there were about ten people on the waiting lists but the problem is that it is likely that other people have the same medical problem as you or someone else throw in the fact that people with worse medical conditions could be ahead of you on the waiting list .

So all the while the person in question is still paying taxes towards an service that is failing them to start with. There will always been an class divide no matter what course of action is taken. I am not against the government providing an safety of some kind for people who have it hard times and require health care however I do think think that the government should only cater for peoples health care has more of an last resort.

Because health care is to important to leave to people that just want to make money. Now don’t get me wrong I’m all for capitalism but something’s should not be “for profit”. Under a for profit scheme you have two choices as to how to pay for surgery, ether pay your self or have insurance and they pay for it. The problem with this is many treatments cost tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars and many people can not afford this cost while if an insurance company can get out of paying for it they will.


How is that a problem? An inconvenience yes, but I would rather have to wait a while and get the care I need as opposed to ether pat $10.000 or have my HMO tell me I can’t get it done.


Your confusing universal healthcare with communism. In a triage money should not be an issue, as an example lets look at an other socialized system, the police.
911 has to do triage as well where should they send available forces to a murder seen or to person who is complaining that there neighbor is playing their music to load?

Generally when the aim is to make an profit a goal or service is usually run a lot better then government counter parts. Note how there aren't waiting list in the US. Either system has its flaws but personally I would be more inclined to go with an insurance policy rather then pay for services that I wont use and have the possibility of being struck on an waiting list.

I would hardly call having someone quality of life effected an inconvenience . When it came to this topic I just offered my thoughts and observations the idea of Communism never entered my head. I'm afraid I don't grasp your comparison to the Police. Look I just don't see the point of the US running into the problems that other countries have had with government run health systems.

Why does the US government have to provide the supposed answers to any problems with health care in the US ?
Why not look at other ideas such as permitting drugs to be imported from Canada and having health insurance company's bid on the uninsured ?

Your right, it is for another thread, but if you believe that a corporate gravvy train represents socialism, i think you need to examine socialism a little closer.


The option in question is health insurance, and considering nearly 47 million US citizens cant afford health insurance, its not really an option is it? Its a copout on the side of the government. "Oh, we dont need to pay for your wellbeing with the tax money we collected from you, you can buy health insurance if your worried about getting sick."


Once again, the issue there is underfunding. If the healthcare system is failing because of waiting lists, (as a result of understaffed, overworked, and underfunded hospitals), you dont close the healthcare system, or privatize it. You boost funding to match the needs of the citizenry.


Thats not true in this case, but when you start privatizing the healthcare system, it sure becomes a reality. How can there be a class divide in a socialist healthcare system? You cant buy your way to the top of a waiting list.

Ok well at least you said that. (the bolded stuff) But the rest is where i guess you and I just simply disagree.

Second post:


You mean like the way the privatized water systems are safer, cleaner, and better run under private care?

There arent waiting lists in the US because you can buy your way to the top. You instantly elevate yourself above those 47 million that cant even afford any healthcare, and youve elevated yourself above those that have to save for "X" amount of years to pay for surgery.



Because the current US healthcare system ignores the problem of a large section of its citizens not even getting any healthcare. Meanwhile a smaller (but still rather large) percentage suffers from massive debt when they do get necessary healthcare.


Because the US government has to answer to its citizenry, as every government must.

Medicating the citizens is not the only issue with healthcare in the US (though it is a big one.) And there is no competitive bidding for uninsured because 1) the uninsured are taht way because they can barely buy food and clothing and shelter for their family 2) because the system is rigged in a way that allows companies to turn a blind eye to the plight of the common citizen.

Why would a company, designed to make a profit for its shareholders, lower its offering price to Joe citizen, when its smarted (business wise) to just talk to your competitors and say "hey, lets all keep our prices roughly the same so that no one has a bloody choice."

Capitalisms responsibility isnt to the welfare of the citizens, its the welfare of the shareholders pocketbook.

Here is what they don't tell you about the "grand ol'" Universal Health Care system... YOU GET PUT ON A WAITING LIST!!!!!

Why Wait?

Why should I have to wait weeks or months to see a doctor when I am dying of cancer or heart disease? People with those problems may not have any time to wait...

[edit on 12-7-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Here is a way of looking at the problem instead of creating an government run health care system the reasons or ways need to be found why people cant afford health insurance and how peoples income can be boasted. One option is in terms of taxes is to have the US government take less money from people to start with. The other aspect that needs to be looked at is ensuring that there are more high skilled and high paid jobs available so that people will be able to afford health care.

The problem is the amount of funding that is required just to make an smal impact on waiting lists . My point was that even with an government run health care system there is still an class divided that is reflected in other areas of society.

Since I don't live in Canada I am not familiar with what your getting at concerning the reference to private enterprise running water related infrastructure.

[edit on 12-7-2007 by xpert11]

Im pretty sure we mentioned this already.

Your source isnt exactly the most credible nor unbiased source. To the bolded, the issue isnt that it will create an unfair advantage. The issue is that after the rich or well off start paying for their own private healthcare, they will soon demand they should no longer pay for government run healthcare, underminning the system and practically forcing it to collapse. leaving millions of Canadians, uninsured, and up the creek. Like i said at least 2 times before, the issue is underfunding the hospitals, thats what created these waiting lists, and the best thing to do to fix them is overhaul the budget and make healthcare financing comensurate with the population needs.


Your example hits close to home. My mother is in pallitive care after being diagnosed with a rare form of cancer two and a half years ago. You know how long she had to wait for her initial surgery? 3 days. She chose not to go on chemo or radiation therapy right away and opted for alternative therapies. He cancer came back, she was admitted to the hospital (right away) when her kidney's started failing, givin pain management, and had stints put through her back into her kidney's to allow drainage and regain some of their function (she waiting a whole day for that proceedure.) She decided to go for chemo when her kidney's stablized, and was administered her first treatment the day of her decision.

To be sure, there are problems with our healthcare system, as i said, its primarily because of poor funding and understaffing. I believe the underfunding is directly caused by interest groups pressuring our government to move healthcare to either a two-tiered system or fully privatized system (the former leads to the latter.)

If the Canadian healthcare system was privatized, my family would either A) be unable to afford the treatment my mother desperatly needed, as well as the medication.
B) We would have gone broke and lost everything we had trying to pay for her medical expenses.

More and more people in the western world are finding it hard to scrape buy, worring about affordable healthcare should not be on the list of things to do. Im glad my country has the sytem it has, despite its flaws. It saved my mother 2 weeks ago, and continues to help her live comfortably. Something that would have been impossible under a private system.

Well, I don't know what condition the medical profession is in in Canada, but here in the United States all I have heard for the last 5-6 years is that there are not enough doctors and nurses to take care of everyone that the system currently is having to take care of.

I honestly think that this "universal healthcare" plan spells little other than complete disaster for the United States... Some politicians are proposing to place more stress on the medical system that is already hard pressed to take care of the patients they have by putting in place a program where the doctors will even have more patients to take care of? It doesn't really make sense to me.

I know, as well as any other logical person does, that as soon as they start implementing this "universal healthcare" plan, everyone and their brother and sister are going to be lined up outside of the clinics. Who is going to attend to them in a timely fashion?

[edit on 13-7-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Source

I think it's quite obvious that if we follow this socialistic plan, we are looking to make a bad situation much, much worse.

All one needs to do is look to our neighbors to the north to see how bad their health care system is now. People in England are going to other countries for medical procedures. Socialised health care does not work, socialism doen't work peroid.