Hugo Chavez Takes Over Venezuelan TV Station

Who's Bush bashing or ripping on FOX news?

Must have missed that one....

I have noticed that people are "liberal" (exactly what is a "Liberal") bashing quite freely though. Muaddib and jsobecky being their usually confrontational selves.

Even when people come out and say "I was wrong about Chavez", they still feel the need to crap on them, despite the fact it takes a bigger man to admit he is wrong...

I bet my bottom dollar you wouldn't do the same...

Originally posted by FlyersFan
One look at Venezuela should be enough to scare any sensible American into vigilance.

Burma is more frighting than Venezuela. Burma is what happen when the military gets more powerful than the State.

People should fear a military regime than a radical socialist.

[edit on 28-5-2007 by infinite]

Originally posted by stumason
it takes a bigger man to admit he is wrong...

I'm a girl.

I bet my bottom dollar you wouldn't do the same...

You just lost. I always admit when I have been proven wrong.
Where can I pick up my check. I hope you were rich!

Muaddib and jsobecky being their usually confrontational selves.

They post facts and prove their position, which happens to be different from yours, and that makes them 'confrontational' eh? oh, that's funny!

Originally posted by infinite
People should fear a military regime than a radical socialist.

I don't know infinite. Both will destroy a country.

Originally posted by stumason
..................
Even when people come out and say "I was wrong about Chavez", they still feel the need to crap on them, despite the fact it takes a bigger man to admit he is wrong...

I bet my bottom dollar you wouldn't do the same...

Anyone can be wrong stumason, and i have conceded in the past if I was wrong, and yes i even apologized to people in the past if my "transgressions" were unfounded.

I was wondering exactly how you came to see what Chavez is now, when he has done much worse in the past and you still supported him, that's all.

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I don't know infinite. Both will destroy a country.

Lets not be bias here towards socialism, is nothing compared to military rule. Not even fascism is as bad as being under the control of the military.

Burma is quite a sad story. The people voted for democratic change, but the military declared the election invalid.

Daw Aung San Suu Kyi has been under house arrest for like 11 years I believe, she is the leader of the democratic movement.

Originally posted by infinite

Burma is more frighting than Venezuela. Burma is what happen when the military gets more powerful than the State.

People should fear a military regime than a radical socialist.

Chavez has used the military, and has ordered acts of violence to stop peaceful protests against him.

BTW, Chavez is a Communist. In his latest presidential speech he even admitted being Communist.

Originally posted by iori_komei



I have to say though, in his defence, even though it's not an excuse, so don't think I
support this or consider it right, but how long would it be before anyone would want to
shut down a place if they are constantly verbally attacking you, not that it's right.

Well, that's how dictatorships work. What else should we expect? Its no big shock to me at all. I come from Cuba, you know, Hugo Chavez' best friend? I was little but remember all television stations taken over by Castro's regime and all media in general. It all goes hand in hand. :shk:

Originally posted by Muaddib
Chavez has used the military, and has ordered acts of violence to stop peaceful protests against him.

Yes, but in Burma..the military acts on its own..nothing like Venezuela. It would be like the US military overthrowing Congress and the President then taking power for itself.

BTW, Chavez is a Communist. In his latest presidential speech he even admitted being Communist.

If he reads Marx, he will understand that he isn't a Communist. Far from it.

Chavez has this fantasy that he can bring a mini-USSR like system to Latin America.

Well considering I wasn't referring to you, the point is mute, Flyer.

I actually chose not to name you because we tend to agree more often than not and you seem ok and reasonable.

Anyhoo, my point was, I was wrong. The dude seems a bit wacked. Fair do's.

But why does that mean we need them coming on to the thread and instead of dealing with it gracefully, it's all "I told you so", "Liberal this" and "stop your bush-bashing", when no-one has bashed Bush at all.

See what I mean about putting words in people's mouths?





[edit on 28/5/07 by stumason]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Anyone can be wrong stumason, and i have conceded in the past if I was wrong, and yes i even apologized to people in the past if my "transgressions" were unfounded.

I was wondering exactly how you came to see what Chavez is now, when he has done much worse in the past and you still supported him, that's all.

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Muaddib]

I never really "supported" him, but rather saw him as the legitimately elected leader, so what can you do? It's who they voted for and the elections were declared by all observers as fair. If thats who they want, then so be it. I "defended" him because of that reason. Democracy, I suppose.

But now, it seems like he is doing a power grab (more than you'd expect from a far-left Socialist). Nationalising the Oil industry is one thing, but taking over the Media is the first step towards a dictatorship. His other moves to bring all his supporters under one Unified party rang alarm bells too. Reminds me of the Soviet's.

Originally posted by stumason

But why does that mean we need them coming on to the thread and instead of dealing with it gracefully, it's all "I told you so", "Liberal this" and "stop your bush-bashing", when no-one has bashed Bush at all.

See what I mean about putting words in people's mouths?

you could accuse them of putting Bush in your mouth? *s'n-word's*

sorry, thats childish

But yes, its not long before we see a cult of personality in Venezuelan with posters of Chavez everywhere, he will be in all the TV shows and films. A Latin American Kim Jong IL

Originally posted by infinite

Yes, but in Burma..the military acts on its own..nothing like Venezuela. It would be like the US military overthrowing Congress and the President then taking power for itself.

Excuse me, but you just described Chavez's rise to power. He was a military officer and was involved in several military coups. BTW the military coup which got him out of office for a while was done because he had implemented the "Avila plan", which authorizes the use of lethal force to stop a peaceful protest. Several of his military officers rebelled against him because of this and that was the start of the military coup to get him out of power.

Originally posted by infinite
If he reads Marx, he will understand that he isn't a Communist. Far from it.

Chavez has this fantasy that he can bring a mini-USSR like system to Latin America.

He has read Marx, but in fact he prefers Trotsky. Chavez wants his revolution to be Global. He calls it, just as Trotsky did, a Global "Permanent revolution", it is still Communism.

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Muaddib]

If this news cast is true then it's deplorable, this is not acceptable any where in the world, , I do find it strange also that they demanded the equpitment be handed over, that would be the case if the tv station was involved in a crime ,fraud punishable in any country , then the equiptment would be held as evidence.



[edit on 28-5-2007 by pepsi78]

You accuse me of this

Originally posted by stumason
I have noticed that people are "liberal" (exactly what is a "Liberal") bashing quite freely though. Muaddib and jsobecky being their usually confrontational selves.

...and then you say this.

Even when people come out and say "I was wrong about Chavez", they still feel the need to crap on them, despite the fact it takes a bigger man to admit he is wrong...

I bet my bottom dollar you wouldn't do the same...

Sounds hypocritical to me.

And, fyi, I've always admitted when I was wrong. Not that I have to explain that to you, however.

Originally posted by infinite
People should fear a military regime than a radical socialist.

[edit on 28-5-2007 by infinite]

How do you think socialist regimes stay in power? The first thing they do is to align themselves with the military; they do that by making sure the military has all the newest shiny toys while the population starves. Such is the case in Venezuela:

* Total population: 23,000,000
* World’s 5th largest oil exporter, yet 80% of population in poverty
* Population making below $1 a day: 15%
* Unemployment rate: 17%
* 3 out of 10 Venezuelan children live in severe poverty
* 176,000 children are beggars
* 50% of children 0-6 years are undernourished
* 4.5 million children are in need: 48,000 are prostitutes, 600,000 left school, one million work
* Fewer than 50% complete secondary education
* There are 20,000 elementary schools and 2,000 secondary schools

www.marymount.k12.ny.us...

Originally posted by Muaddib

He has read Marx, but in fact he prefers Trotsky. Chavez wants his revolution to be Global. He calls it, just as Trotsky did, a Global "Permanent revolution", it is still Communism.

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Muaddib]

Just as Democracy has many facets, with both pro's and con's, so does Communism.

Before the Bolsheviks consolodated the communist party in Russia after the Revolution, the form of communism most practiced was actually very democratic. It was much like the Town Hall/Meeting system you have in parts of the USA. People would gather, meet, discuss and vote on issues. Anyone could come. It took quite a while for the Bolsheviks to take control of Russia after 1917 and it went rapidly downhill once the "Party" took over.

Originally posted by infinite
A Latin American Kim Jong Il

I don't think I'd go that far, Kim Jong Il is a total dictator whom oppresses his people so
much that his country is listed as the least free country in the world in generally every category.

That and he tries to get his people to think he and his father were/are some sort of divinity.

Originally posted by stumason
..................
But now, it seems like he is doing a power grab (more than you'd expect from a far-left Socialist). Nationalising the Oil industry is one thing, but taking over the Media is the first step towards a dictatorship. His other moves to bring all his supporters under one Unified party rang alarm bells too. Reminds me of the Soviet's.

His first election was probably "democratic", but since then there hasn't been a democratic election in Venezuela. His oponent numbers are as great, or greater than the Chavistas' numbers. Even when his oponents make demonstrations, the Chavistas can only summon much smaller amounts of people lately to chant in favor of Chavez.

Anyways, to those whop don't think Chavez is a Communist. Here is what a Marxist has to say about the "Bolivarian Revolution".
www.marxist.com...

You won't see a "democratic" book launch in Caracas btw...

Originally posted by Muaddib
He has read Marx, but in fact he prefers Trotsky. Chavez wants his revolution to be Global. He calls it, just as Trotsky did, a Global "Permanent revolution", it is still Communism.

A global revolution will fail. never will happen. Marx knew it, so did Lenin too. Trotsky was the only one who believed in a United Soviet Earth. But its impossible to happen.

Take China, its now a socialist republic with free markets. It knew that the Communist could not stay in power until they became socialist and introduced a liberal economy. Its even starting to introduce low level democracy. Same with Vietnam.

China is living 21st Century socialism whereas Chavez still believes in late 19th and early 20th Century Communism. Which will NOT work anymore.

* Total population: 23,000,000
* World’s 5th largest oil exporter, yet 80% of population in poverty
* Population making below $1 a day: 15%
* Unemployment rate: 17%
* 3 out of 10 Venezuelan children live in severe poverty
* 176,000 children are beggars
* 50% of children 0-6 years are undernourished
* 4.5 million children are in need: 48,000 are prostitutes, 600,000 left school, one million work
* Fewer than 50% complete secondary education
* There are 20,000 elementary schools and 2,000 secondary schools

I'm sorry but what has this got to do with democracy, you could be democratic but broke as hell, unemployment and poverty has to do with the economical factors, it has nothing to do with freedom of speach or any other freedoms.

If you put it this way united states is ranked in health care just above slovenia, if you rip a finger and you want to put it back it will cost you around 10000$ the price of a brand new kia suv.

United States is not exactly 100% literacy rate, there are alot of people that don't know how to read and write in the US, that means that I can read and write in english better then alot of people from your country in your own languege,
Some 40 milion people in United States are under minumum earnings in poverty by statistics.

I don't really see your point, economics are not related to rights and freedoms of the people, money in general has nothing to do with it, they are 2 branches , one referes to economics and the other to democracy.

Originally posted by Muaddib

His first election was probably "democratic", but since then there hasn't been a democratic election in Venezuela. His oponent numbers are as great, or greater than the Chavistas' numbers. Even when his oponents make demonstrations, the Chavistas can only summon much smaller amounts of people lately to chant in favor of Chavez.

That is contrary to what is reported. The last election only last year was declared fair. It had some minor irregularities, but so did the UK election!

As far as I can see on the news, the split seems to be 60/40 in favour of Chavez. He gets as big a crowds as his opponents, if not more.

It's funny his supporters are the poor (which is not his creation, but previous Governments) and that his opponents are the Elite, US friendly, rich people though. You know, the one's who control(ed) the media....................

There is definitely more to what is going on in Venezuela than Chavez being a "dictator". The previous Governments were run by the Elite and were corrupt, keeping the population downtrodden. They had Oil money too, so where are the schools and the hospitals? It's hardly surprising Chavez has the support he does.

But, anyhoo. The guy seems to be trying to institute a new Cuba. Only thing is, America can't really afford to blockade Venezuela..Not with all that Oil... So what will they do? What can they do?

What of the other extreme-left, SA Presidents recently elected. What are they up too?