Americans V Americans

You can even purchase and smoke marijuana legally there. that is freedom, state sponsored freedom in the best form.

Movin' to the Netherlands!

Has anyone thought about the possibility of a civil war that pits 'Americans' against illegal immigrants? As of now The World Fact Book states that there are 301,139,947 people residing in America. In '06 AZ. Sen. McCain stated there were about 20,000,000 illegals living here, with approx. 10,000 illegals entering everyday or almost 4,000,000 a year. I realize it would take years for illegals to reach the high #'s to be comparable to American citizens, then factor in Our own citizen growth. How possible is this?
I used to think that any civil war would be fought with citizens pitted against Our military but Our military is stretched so thinly I can't see that happening any time soon. Who would an American civil war include?

Peace. K*

Seagul I promise to be good, yes I agree the next conflicts or one could say the current ones are about resources. Will it come to individual states fighting over it yes I suppose its possible.

Here in the UK many are not happy that we sell electricty and water to the French especially when we have hose pipe bans.

I suppose its the to many rats in the cage scenario, I can remember fights breaking out at petrol stations when we had recent fuel blockades.

But with the current political climate in the US what about it kicking off between white and none white Americans such as Muslims, they may have a different religous belief but their Amercans all the same.

I'll take you at your word .

What is a hosepipe?

fights over resources are about the only thing I can see igniting a broad civil war between states. Race? For most people, not enough of an issue to get that heated about. Religion? Most people don't care enough to get that heated. Most people couldn't care less if the Smiths are Jewish/Muslim, Black/White. Some do, of course, but not enough to ignite a civil war, despite claims by bigots to the contrary.

Originally posted by seagull
I really wish you two would knock it off...

I second that.

magicmushroom it appears that you do have a obsession for the destruction of America but most of us have let it pass because we all have a right to our opinions. If you truly feel that Rockpuck is targeting you complain to the mods. From ware I was sitting you were the one who derailed the thread with your attack of Rockpuck not Rockpuck's idea. Hope you dont think I'm picking on you but I'm giving my opinion as I allow you to give yours.



[edit on 27-5-2007 by angryamerican]

AA I would say I have an interest in the worlds only superpower and its people and its foreign policy. I dont recall talking or should I say drooling about its destruction, it being a hell hole etc.

As stated my thread was in response to comments I have read on this board, of people stocking up on guns and supplies and ready to fight, the question is to fight who, each other or others, the Goverment?

But a certain member who refused to discuss these points sought to take me on over my views of America which had nothing to do with the thread.

Rockpuck said I have a morbid interest in America

morbid- having a strong interest in unpleasant subjects especially death and disease.

Is Rock saying America is unpleasant, a diseased and dying nation, his words not mine.

a hose pipe is what americans call a "water hose" , i think.

water hoses must've been banned, in other words, durin water shortage, you wouldnt be allowed to play with water hoses for fun like sprinklers, to water your garden or lawn, or wash your car with one.

it wont be illegals vs legals, itll be poor versus poor who are being paid/taken care of by the rich, thats what itll come down to. by then, there will be no middle class, just poor people and rich people. poor people will be like 97% of the nation, rich people will be like 3$%.

but those poor people will be split about evenly between working for the rich people and protecting them, being used as soldiers by them, or fighting against the rich people, the cause of their oppression. itll be a nice even split. for example, when it comes down to the cash partner, any crooked cat on the streets is going to do what he has to do to get that money, then get that drug, or whatever hes gonna do with that money.

also, the poor protecting the rich will have access to some of the riches facilities, and will be able to shop for high quality wares. not all, but the higher circles of the poor people working for the rich people will.

the rich people will be american politicians, the house, the senate, all judges, the president and his cabinet, the defense department, all government employees and their families, and all wealthy investors. those white collar workers for the corporations which support and provider essential computer, data, and logistical services for the other rich people and work with federal agencies and the military, sometimes by contract sometimes by not, will work with the rich people.

all the poor ass ghetto people on the streets of D.C. would be mostly working for the rich people. those neighborhoods of black people who could be armed and used would be, but they'd have to be trusted with a gun first, so these would be high level CIA connections already existing in the neighborhoods and projects involving drugs operations and smuggling. Those groups more specifically, they will be used as militias and street thugs by the rich.

they'll be up against all free patriot men, all the rampant poor people who just dont care or are of no value to the government, some armed most not. there will be people from all walks of life, colors of skin, it will really vary on WHERE your talking about. poor whites and middle class whites which in the future would become poor whites also would likely divide along ethnic lines, as would certain inner city neighborhoods and projects divide into 'black sectors'.

sh#t, why am i going thru so much trouble to explain when i could just sum it up like this.

Take Iraq, specifically Baghdad, in its current state with its current conditions. Now, paint the people all different colors instead of the vast majority being arabs. Now, take out the religious aspect from society, but keep all the violence, honor killing, family feud killing, neighborhood to neighborhood warfare, groups from certain parts of certain provinces and towns going after each other, keep all that. mass exodus of people who are different to split into groups and places where they feel safe in numbers, keep all that too. provinces become state and counties within. Welcome to the former United States of America. The Federal military, or whats left of it after mutiny and certain Commanders partial to certain places and people split off from it and became their own entities, would be conducting raids on -everyone- , -everywhere- , just like in Iraq, sometimes killing civilians "accidently".

You know how Russia, even tho it was the main entity in Soviet Union, it didnt come out with the name "Soviea" or anything at the break up. So when the United States of America broke up, i dont think there would be any one state within it calling itself the "country of America" because no one will be able the claim that. Theyll only be able to claim the pre-existing names or former names or what have you.

By the time all that happened, I'd plan to be living in another country . First major goal upon aquiring a large sum of money eventually. But if I didnt move, and got stuck in it, id follow in the footsteps of an ancestor of mine from the Civil War era and fight!! If I told you which side and how high of rank he was you'd flip your lid thinking *I* came from *that*, lol. Only if you're someone who knows alot about the civl war. then PM me. but, hes not anyone particularly famous, so dont get your hopes up.

[edit on 5/27/2007 by runetang]

or maybe corporations will get to the point where they own so many different types of businesses, big and small, that they literally own entire cities, or worse, groups of cities, or even states or small countries.

for example, if bad mofo corp owns mcdonalds, k-mart, and honda, as well as numerous small businesses, resturants, basically everything in your town, they could claim the entire town as theirs, and institute their own reforms if they seceeded from the Nation. This would only work if multiple corporations did it and had invested in certain sections of the USA so the breakaway could take place.

In that high unlikely scenario, the USA would be split into a small group of consumer states owned by corporations. If you've ever played the roleplaying game "Shadowrun", it would be much like that, minus all the futuristic implants, magic, and orcs and sh%t. lol.

Originally posted by angryamerican

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsSmarter
NGC do you really believe your country is free as it is? Last I heard it was illegal to whistle in some cities, your government can take you captive for indefinte periods of time without trial. How the hell is that free? Yo are pretty much a police state already.

Enjoy your freedom.

Don't baleave everything you read in the press. You are half a world away, so how would you know. We are still the freeist nation on this planet.

Have you not looked at your own laws. They make ours look fun. My point is look in your own back yard before getting cocky about our back yard. Out dated laws on the books are in every country. for instance in Australia You may never leave your car keys in an unattended vehicle. Children may not buy cigarettes but they may smoke them. Taxi cabs are required to carry a bale of hay in the trunk. Bars are required to stable, water and feed the horses of their patrons. these are actual laws on your books. So go ahead and poke at my country I will poke back.

As for American vs American If a person tries to harm me or mine he is no longer an American to me. He becomes the enemy and I will always fight the enemy

Originally posted by NGC2736
Well said, Angry. I ignored it to a point, as I realize that far too many people only see the faults of others.

What makes our nation and people so great is that, for the most part, we see our own faults and try to ferret them out.

My god, It amazes me that you "American's" think you are the freeist nation on the planet.

Are you blind? How many countries have you lived in? How many countries have you fought for? get a clue will you's?

The guy is 15 years old and a fellow inhabitant of the EARTH. Sure i do agree that you are as free as you choose to be, however i would think that in the context of the U.S you are as free as you choose to be so long as you dont want any more freedom than what the govt imposes ala 'Patriot Act'.

In which case you become an enemy combatent and as carter said are allowed to be imprisoned for any length of time without trial and could be subject to interogation and or torture. clicky

How many Arab people do you think where born in America and are locked away right now for doing nothing wrong? Many? Well where i come from NOBODY is locked away for displaying against the govt. and EVERYBODY is free unless charged with a felony (in which case they still have it pretty cushy and are not subject to state run torture). Regardless of race/religion/conspiring against the govt etc.

So i would suppose from my point of view you two chaps are not the freeist nation in the world. Just the most nieve.

Sure i admit i have never been there, so am basing this purely off my own research/experiance but man with comments such as those you guys sure make it hard for me (and other non-US citizens might i add) to have empathy for your dying nation.

Now don't think i am a 'hater' of the States, because I think there are good and bad people everywhere in the world, My friends, family and i have served in many places on the earth along side the yanks (or under as most would tell you, since they are the 'bee's knees' and or 'dont need no help from nobody to win any war').

Please gents lets not assume you have the best country on earth here, because IMHO that is VERY close minded.

Edit - Whoa, finished reading the whole thread and saw that post by AA to the OP. Sorry for ripping out the nieve call. will leave this post so you can tear it to bits if you wish.. But keep in mind i was basing this off your original post to carter.

[edit on 27-5-2007 by blurryone]

[edit on 27-5-2007 by blurryone]

There is no "best" nation on earth. But there is home. And when I say that we are free, part of that stems from the fact that despite all th BS laws, as long as some of us refuse to knuckle under, then a part of the old spirit of America lives on. We love our land, our people, and our freedoms, and comply grudgingly to restrictions. But we will only comply so far.

I live in a rural part of this country, and I'm afraid a lot of people base their idea of what America is on the news you get from the media. And I assure you, they never take us into account. News is centered on the city, except for a few fluff pieces here and there.

It's much the same way that pollsters seldom contact rural people, so their views are seldom heard. The media, and a large portion even of America, never know what is out in the hinterlands. Many form their only concept of our nation on what CNN tells them is happening in NY or LA. On how people feel in Miami or Chicago. But there is so much more to America.

Across this nation are farmers, and truck drivers, and schoolteachers, and the whole range of our society, that are nearly invisible, even to our leaders. But they are the backbone of this nation. They are what this nation was built upon. They know hard work, and poverty, they know the elements and the whims of nature, and they have never let it beat them. The NWO, or the Illuminati, or the Devil himself has never beaten them. And never will.

And almost to a man, woman, and child, they take freedom pretty damn serious. Now so far, aside from some grumbling, they've been silent. D.C. is far away, and even those that hate the war are for the most part too patriotic not to support it. Their fathers and grandfathers for generations have went to war, and they follow them.

And so far, not a hell of a lot has changed. Oh, there's new styles and computers, and most of those handy things. But deep down, most are still the same people that always shouldered the burden of liberty. Not that there are not as many patriots in the city, but these are at a disadvantage, for cities are easy to contain.

America is a big place, and there's a lot of ground to hold. Even troops so brainwashed that they would obey orders to fight their fellow Americans would find it tough going. Iraq would look like a walk in the sun.

And almost every person here owns not one, but multiple, weapons. And even the women and children are better with them than half of the NG, because a lot of them use their's more often.

Just because there's been no major trouble over things, let it come to a head, and there will be hell to pay. Most rural Americans feel that people who live in the city want these restrictive laws because cities are so violent. Those laws that a city dweller might submit to, wouldn't work well past the suburbs. Even now, a lot of laws are just ignored in the country, by the citizens and the cops.

But if it comes to rebellion, and I hope that it never does, then a sleeping giant will come awake that the soft politicians can never cope with. So save your fear, your pity, your concern, we will not fall. On our knees we are still head and shoulders above anything that any government can put against us.

Rock your so fullof it

Am I?

people police, you should know things like that if your smart.

OK Brit, Do tell, what is the people police. Ill give you a hint. It doesn't exist.

Your ignorance of this country is truly astounding.

The only hate here and on my other post is your hate of me raising points about your country,

Actually you have never honestly raised any valid, nor correct point about this country.

your responses are full of hate and ignorance.

Oh? Do quote and fully explain? How is it I am full of hate? Do give a detailed explaintation so that I can further embarrass your blatant agenda.

You speak for the whole of America do you, your names not really Bush is it.

blatant partisan politics huh? I am not a Republican just so you know, however I succumb to no one mans personal agenda, as said, your views will not be suppressed on me Brit.

Do I speak for all of America? Hell no, I speak for my self, but I can assure you a few minority think along your lines.

If you find that you are not equipped to answer my questions then thats fine.

I have answered in full and quoted in response all of your questions and "points"

It is you, my big mouthed bigot of a friend, that is to big of an inept coward to quote and fully define in answers your disagreements. Until then, you simply don't like me because I don't obey and fall in line. Apparently any thought outside your own pathetic shwered line of thought is "ignorant" ----- we call that arrogant ignorance.

I'll leave it to the more mature members to respond to this thread.

you mean....................................

ones who agree with you?

Man, your sad.

[edit on 5/28/2007 by Rockpuck]

Originally posted by angryamerican

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsSmarter
NGC do you really believe your country is free as it is? Last I heard it was illegal to whistle in some cities, your government can take you captive for indefinte periods of time without trial. How the hell is that free? Yo are pretty much a police state already.

Enjoy your freedom.

Have you not looked at your own laws. They make ours look fun. My point is look in your own back yard before getting cocky about our back yard. Out dated laws on the books are in every country. for instance in Australia You may never leave your car keys in an unattended vehicle. Children may not buy cigarettes but they may smoke them. Taxi cabs are required to carry a bale of hay in the trunk. Bars are required to stable, water and feed the horses of their patrons. these are actual laws on your books. So go ahead and poke at my country I will poke back.

I am not making fun of your laws I am saying America needs to wake up. I beleive you arnt free (at least under bush) but aside from freedom a huge percentage of americans are ignorent fools. Not just because surveys show the majority cant pick osama bin laden from the one of the candidates in an election.

Also many people you included believe america is the best place on earth with is just plain wrong. I mean come on America has the highest homicide count in the world, its most affected by drugs, its the most corrupt and the most prejudice.

I am not insulting you or your family but in my opinion aroud 90% of americans are ignorent and blind to the world, they think they are all that matters.

As for geographically I am in Aus but have been to america twice and dont draw thoughts from the media as I dont watch the news or read papers I know what is happening though and draw conclusions from that. Also the s*** about the hay in taxis and the stabke horses in bars may be a law (i dont know) but is NEVER carried out i have never put y bag in the back of a taxi and gon "hey ind if I help myself to your hay" nor have a seen a bar with a sign saying "2 drinks or more and horses eat free"
They may be laws but arnt carried out unlike your patriot act *cough*


[edit on 28/5/07 by JimmyCarterIsSmarter]

by the way AA and NGC I am not trying to start something as I have read some of your posts AA and find them quite insightful but I a just pissed off at the number of americans who are blind. An example of this is I was discussing people smuggling and online ad someone commented "america is the only people trafficking destination, i mean comeon who would want to go anywhere else"

I am an aetheist but am completely open to religion but i belief the radical christians are a large part of these ignorent people. Im talking about the people who think bush was chosen by god and americans are gods people i mean christ.

Originally posted by blurryone

My god, It amazes me that you "American's" think you are the freeist nation on the planet.

Are you blind? How many countries have you lived in? How many countries have you fought for? get a clue will you's?

You get a clue pal. Ive lived in many nations, and as said above I have a right to my opinion. In my opinion the USA is the freeist nation on this earth.

I was defending my country from a unprovoked verbal attack. 15 years old is no excuse to be bad mouthing a place you have never lived Manners are suppose to be world wide.

My post to him was not rude and it was well with in the ATS TOS. Your post however may still be with in the TOS but I find it extreamly rude and uncalled for. You left it up for one reason and one reason only to fan the flames.

I chose my name On ATS because of all the American bashing. You post and his are a good example of that. If a man slaps you, you will slap back.

I never said that The USA was better, then Australia or anyplace else.

Please quite derailing the thread. If you have a post related to American VS American post it if not and you still feel the need to take a jab at me U2U me.

I have a right to my opinion, just because I'm an American dosent mean I'm wrong.

Austrialian laws anti terror laws are way worse then ours.
www.theage.com.au...






[edit on 28-5-2007 by angryamerican]

[edit on 28-5-2007 by angryamerican]

Jimmycarter -- which your name says it all.

I am not making fun of your laws I am saying America needs to wake up.

Hmm.. Wake up from what?

I beleive you arnt free (at least under bush

Ohhh...

So Republicans and other independents conservatives need to Wake Up. I see now, its all so clear, the conservative way is simply wrong and the Liberal way is the light.

but aside from freedom a huge percentage of americans are ignorent fools.

Ah, thank's mate. I consider most Australians to be fools then. Fairs fair.

You say huge majority, they wouldn't happen to be those pesky conservatives again eh?

Not just because surveys show the majority cant pick osama bin laden from the one of the candidates in an election.

I for one would not expect every single person in the United States to be concerned with worldly affairs as it does not effect the majority of "little men" in this country, however surveys are flawed in nearly every way, and do not actually grasp the full effect of the entire society in which they try and break down into numbers using 100+ people to bring about a census of over 300 million.

Also many people you included believe america is the best place on earth with is just plain wrong.

ACtually its RIGHt.. because it is a personal opinion.

I could think of one or two places I would rather live, because America is to populated for me, but all and all, there are few places I would rather be. Does that make me wrong because I am not suppressed by your personal opinions?

The last UN poll showed Ireland's population to be the "happiest" followed by I believe the Netherlands.

I mean come on America has the highest homicide count in the world

One of, yes.

However per % of the population we actually are not that high.. Scotland takes the lead with most crimes per people.

You have to remember America is the third most populated country in the world, 300,000,000 people. Europe's biggest is France, a mere 60 million.

We therefore have more poverty, more undereducated, and more rampant drug trade because we live just North of the source.

its most affected by drugs, its the most corrupt and the most prejudice.

Most crimes are actually emotionally fueled within families or friends.

However drugs do bring about a large % of the crime. I do not see your point though, those who stay away from drugs and drug ridden area will not have a problem?

Most corrupt? Dear God, just look at 95% of the worlds governments.

Most prejudice? Against? How so? In your opinion of course...

Ohhhh... thats right, we are all supposed to conform to your own ideologies.

my bad.

I am not insulting you or your family but in my opinion aroud 90% of americans are ignorent and blind to the world, they think they are all that matters.

Not insulting? Who is in the 90% there friend?

In my personal opinion of a rambling fool like your self honestly knows # about the world, but thinks your the big # on higher ground because you believe so full heartedly your opinions are all the matter.

Oh..... isn't that JUST what you accused America of? Ignorance, it comes in all forms.

American's think of American's first..

Just as Germans think of Germany first..

And Britain of Britain and her people first..

And Aussies think of Australia first....

It would appear it is rather natural, expected, and appropriate to care about your own well being first.

As for geographically I am in Aus but have been to america twice and dont draw thoughts from the media as I dont watch the news or read papers I know what is happening though and draw conclusions from that.

Your an Aus that hates America because you had a bad vacation? I'm loving this.

They may be laws but arnt carried out unlike your patriot act *cough*

I love it when foreigners read our laws and think they comprehend.

The Patriot act for the most part simply made our government have THE EXACT SAME ABILITIES MOST EUROPEAN COUNTRIES HAVE ALREADY. In America though such abrasive laws are knew to us.

There is some good in the act, there is some bad, as would be expected from the government. But..... you know all about this, huh Aus?

but I a just pissed off at the number of americans who are blind.

you mean........ are not enlightened Liberals?

I am an aetheist but am completely open to religion but i belief the radical christians are a large part of these ignorent people.

LOL .. it always seems to be at the end of such ignorant post of arrogant fools that they whip out their ideologies and place it on their sleeve.

I don't like Christians either friend.. but to say they are ignorant because they don't conform to you is both barbaric and pathetically sad.

Im talking about the people who think bush was chosen by god and americans are gods people i mean christ.

Interesting. Chosen by God himself.. honestly have not heard that one before . I believe this might be .5% of the population if that.

If your honestly such a bigot to make your assumptions that an entire people, and an entire political ideology is mere worthless radical babbling because YOU DON'T AGREE..

Then you my friend are absolutely no better then those you hate.

Which is sad. And expected.

ENOUGH POST ON THE ORIGINAL TOPIC OR DON'T POST. This is getting way out of control.

At this point in humanity's history, nothing would surprise me. After having seen things I never expected to see in my country, I think all bets are off. We're living in very strange times indeed. I think the paradigm is shifting and giving birth to something new always has the accompanying birth pains. Americans are very divided at this point and who knows what will come of it.

ok im letting the argument go now. I am backing down because neither side will give in.

If america would turn against each other (which I doubt) it may be for political or religious reasons. Its the only viable option I can see because american resources are shared as it is one government.

O and for the record I dont think australia is the best country on earth,i dont even like it much (too much drought) I will move to either germany or canada. Also in terms of my name I did not chose it my friend made it who loves the simpsons and it is a quote from it.
Just one more thing I think I should say in the link to the age you gave me it says this
Australian Greens leader Bob Brown compared the laws to the 1950s crackdown on communism in the US.

[edit on 28/5/07 by JimmyCarterIsSmarter]

Let's get this thread back on track

I'm not going to name names, yet, but those of you who are intent on bickering back and forth about whether or not America is better or worse than someone else's country, either take it to rant, Head to Head, or even better yet, take it to U2U.

This is an interesting thread concept, and quite a few members have given some valuable input. Some of you, however, are doing nothing more than petty bickering. If you have problems with one another, take it out of here. The rest of us just don't care about your drama parade.

And for chrissakes, read the rest of the thread replies before jumping someone else's back. We almost had an end to drama before a couple of you started it back up again.

So here is the pimp hand.

Next person I see bickering off-topic in this thread gets slapped with a warn.

Let's get back on topic.

The concept of an American vs. American struggle is a terrible thought to behold, as well as a deep philosophical discussion. Part of what unites us, despite our differing physical, mental, emotional, and opinionated capacities, is that we are, at our core, Americans.

One might be a hard core leftist democrat living next to a neocon republican, both of different races, religions, and social castes, but as long as both are American, it'd take a lot for them to go to war with one another

While I agree that almost every war happens, ultimately, due to scarcity of resources, I don't see any state-based wars breaking out because of a scarcity. Granted, I consider myself a Texan, first and foremost, but if any one of the other 49 states was in desperate need of food, water, electricity, etc, then I and damn near every other Texan in the state would lend whatever aid we could, even to the point of having to ration myself till they were back on their feet.

There are simply too many states, and too well connected of an infrastructure, for warfare over resources to be a reality between our states. Each state need only give a fraction of its resources to help a laggard state, plus there's federal assistance, etc.

This doesn't mean I don't see a civil war between us as a very real possibility, thanks largely in part to the current administration creating such an extremist political divide in America as well as curtailing many of our civil liberties. However, I also believe strongly in the ability of our republic to withstand a tyrant's advances like Bush. I believe the voting system is self-correcting due to the averaging-effect of everyone's ideas on how to run the country. Thus, I may be utterly convinced we have to enact A, B, and C to save the country, and someone else might be convinced we need X, B, and Z. We vote appropriately, and the reality is somewhere in the middle. It's a bit more complex than that, but in a nutshell, that's what happens over the course of enough elections. And for the most part, a lot of people believe the same way. We may hate who's running the country, but at least we have confidence in the system to survive.

So what would prompt Americans nowadays to go war with other Americans?

Simply put, a lack of confidence in the vote. If those creative little Diebold vote-switches keep happening, if Bush suspends elections due to "an emergency", if Congress, the Senate, and/or the Supreme Court were to suddenly be abolished, then you would see a lot of people rise up real quick, and very few stand to stop them.

George Washington was offered a dictatorship by his military officers after the War of Independence, despite the Declaration's wording and the budding Constitutional Congress. His reply was "Do you really think I risked my life to fight off George the Third, just to become George The First?"

This is, I believe, the ideal still held by our military today. If Bush were to declare one or both of the other two branches invalid, or if the system were to suddenly break down, I think you'd see a serious schism in the military, and I would bet dollars to donuts the vast majority of our military would relieve the President of his command.

It's one thing to wield a weapon and shoot at an enemy you've never met because you've been ordered to. It's another thing altogether to stare at your fellow countrymen in the crosshairs and still decide to pull that trigger, knowing full well that the only reason they stand in front of you is because they are fighting for the country you previously swore to uphold. I don't know any Army, Marines, Air Force, or Navy, who could voluntarily become that kind of traitor to their country. They have too much honor. I don't doubt there are some that exist, but not in enough number to withstand the men and women of honor.

So, in essence, if America went to war with itself, it would be over the preservation of America in the face of a tyrant bent on destroying it, or the slow gradual erosion of democracy to the point where it collapses upon itself. I can see no other possible reason for any of us to war with one another.