Mosques awarded Homeland Security grants

Originally posted by Don Wahn
How insane is this? Granted the opinion of Muslims is pretty darn skewed here in the US, but how on earth can they be getting grants from the government.

but it's not just mosques... churches and temples get them

It has already been seen that the most peaceful, devout Muslims are still wanting to wage jihad on us infidels, and what could help them destroy us more quickly than to have our own buffoon government give them money directly.

muhammed ali wants to wage a jihad on us infidels?

seriously, just look at how ridiculous that statement is.

Just how many Church's will get some cash? Synagogues? I mean really....


Plus the alms that the Muslims give are are funneled to legit causes right? how many are under investigation at this time? Would it not be ironic if some funding from the us taxpayer finds its way alongside some Saudi monies to nice folks that want the US dead?

Well it's not like Israel isn't violent either.

The term jihad has been hijacked by the west and turned into something it was never meant to be. The traditional definition of jihad means that it is your own personal spiritual struggle; Christians would call it "my cross to bear".

This is a good example of how the powers that be WANT you to dislike the Muslims so they can go forward with their ME agenda.

Moslems are no better and no worse than any other group of religionists/people, be they Christian, Jewish or Klingon.

I agree that the word jihad has been hijacked for the most part, but I also read a different meaning when "I" read it in the Koran. We also saw a different meaning in Afghanistan in the 1980's....

Originally posted by edsinger
I agree that the word jihad has been hijacked for the most part, but I also read a different meaning when "I" read it in the Koran. We also saw a different meaning in Afghanistan in the 1980's....

Can you explain more about this? I got my info from several practicing Moslems.

Read the stories in the Koran of Muhammad's rise to power and his call for Jihad against the infidels and then learn the meaning of infidels for a reference. His treatment of Jews was particularly bad after they refuse to accept him as a prophet. When folks say it is supposed to mean a inner struggle, not every occasion in the Koran would agree, actually the majority refers to spreading Islam by the sword.

Originally posted by edsinger
Read the stories in the Koran of Muhammad's rise to power and his call for Jihad against the infidels and then learn the meaning of infidels for a reference. His treatment of Jews was particularly bad after they refuse to accept him as a prophet. When folks say it is supposed to mean a inner struggle, not every occasion in the Koran would agree, actually the majority refers to spreading Islam by the sword.

please inlighten me with some refrences
i mean since you know so much about my faith you must have evidence that proves the above points.

and please look up on the meaning JIHAD

Well I will try and give you a few from a different perspective then,

I will stick with the Koran and not add anything from the Sira or the Hadith.

The Battle of Badr

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

Now one might say this was written only for the Battle of Badr, but the fact is it was written long after the battle. Jewish men in Medina were killed just for rejecting Mohammad as a prophet, which was the Jewish men's right to do. Rejection of the prophet meant death for these men.

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

So one comes back to his home and what is the verdict? Kill them

[9.122] And it does not beseem the believers that they should go forth all together; why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious?
[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

Fight the unbelievers...

[2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.

Fighting the unbeliever is your duty as a Muslim


[4.46] Of those who are Jews (there are those who) alter words from their places and say: We have heard and we disobey and: Hear, may you not be made to hear! and: Raina, distorting (the word) with their tongues and taunting about religion; and if they had said (instead): We have heard and we obey, and hearken, and unzurna it would have been better for them and more upright; but Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little.
[4.47] O you who have been given the Book! believe that which We have revealed, verifying what you have, before We alter faces then turn them on their backs, or curse them as We cursed the violaters of the Sabbath, and the command of Allah shall be executed.


Yes, a VERY tolerant religion...

[9.33] He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse.

AH the Goal of Islam



Now I would agree that the Old Testament has its own similar verses, but in this modern age, I do not see Jews and Christians walking into markets with bombs strapped on to kill innocents!



One difference in the two, if one is Christian and decides to change, then it is his right, this does not work for a Muslim, as the result is a death sentence for this person.

I can not see how anyone can say that Islam is a tolerant religion. IT is violent by it nature, sure not all read it that way, but the general perception is nonetheless a given.



Koran Source



Edit: And are YOU sure that Jihad only means an inner struggle? It would seem to me that is not the first thing that pops in anyone's mind when the word is mentioned. If the Koran states it, then either one of 2 things is wrong:

(1) The Islamists are to ignorant to actually read the Koran

or

(2) They read it in the same manner as I do and read the violence inherent in the book itself, the treachery, the acceptance of lies as ok, the acceptance of going back on ones word if it further your cause, the ability to break ones word or treaty when it benefits the cause of Islam, the continuing call to kill the infidels.


[edit on 2-6-2007 by edsinger]

SORAH 8 SPOILS OF WAR

routed and several of their most prominent chieftains - Abu Jahl among them - were killed.

It was the first open battle between the pagan Quraysh and the young Muslim community of Medina; and its outcome made the Quraysh realize that the movement inaugurated by Muhammad was not an ephemeral dream but the beginning of a new political power and a new era different from anything that the Arabian past had known.

**Lit., "seeing that God has thrown them back in result of what they have earned". There are various conjectures, almost all of them of a historical nature, as to the identity of these hypocrites. Some of the commentators think that the verse refers to the hypocrites at Medina in the early years after the hijrah; others (e.g., Tabari) prefer the view expressed by Ibn ‘Abbas, according to whom this refers to certain people of Mecca who, before the hijrah, outwardly accepted Islam but secretly continued to support the pagan Quraysh.

www.geocities.com...

all there and they explain all verses
you will find all the answers to all the verses you have posted

on jihad it means inner struggle or struggle for ones faith when one is being stopped by force in practicing his/her faith. it cant be used to declare war on someone that has not commited an act against them or stoped them from practicing their faith.

extremists i dont see as muslims as they have broken almost all guidelines set out even those given when in war.

also if you look in history and look back at the crusades muslims didnt break their word when it came to ceasfires and wars.


and i believe you and most people just look for the violent parts in the quran and just concentrate on those aspects just like the fanatics who claim to be muslim.

as what you do can easily be done with christianity and jews and so on


[edit on 2-6-2007 by bodrul]

OK, explain how the Quran says its ok to have a treaty to wait until ones forces are ready to break the said treaty, as Arafat did with the Oslo accords? Its ok to lie, if it suits the greater goal of Islam.

You can explain the verses as meaning something to a specific place and time, but the Koran if full of that, and the fact remains that infidels are targets unless they accept Islam.


You can get your site to explain the Koran as I can, but the fact remains that in the present day, jihad has a meaning all its own.

Originally posted by edsinger
You can get your site to explain the Koran as I can, but the fact remains that in the present day, jihad has a meaning all its own.

Only to uninformed Americans. And only to those who refuse to listen when they might learn something from another person.

Originally posted by forestlady
Only to uninformed Americans. And only to those who refuse to listen when they might learn something from another person.

hence why im not bothering any more
if edsigner and co want to learn about islam its up to them
i bet he didnt even read the explanations to any of the paragraphs he posted

[edit on 3-6-2007 by bodrul]

Originally posted by bodrul

i bet he didnt even read the explanations to any of the paragraphs he posted

Oh I read them, and if YOU had read what I wrote :

You can explain the verses as meaning something to a specific place and time, but the Koran if full of that, and the fact remains that infidels are targets unless they accept Islam.

You see from what I have read about Islam and Mohammed's rise to power, he changed his view and said 'revelations' when it fit what he needed. Just as he wanted a reason to marry his 'sister in law' (I think anyway) he had a revelation for a divorce so that Muhammad could then marry the target of his lust.

So you take the word jihad to only mean inner struggle, that is what most Muslim apologists do and yet when verses are pointed out in the Quran , Hadith, or Sira, they immediately claim that was just said for that specific occasion.

This is exactly what those that claim the Bible itself is violent point out. When God commanded the Israelites to cross the Jordan and kill every man woman and child, they then say that the God of Abraham was violent. Good point but in the Muslim books it is not an isolated issue.

At times, Muhammad was a very compassionate man towards his enemies and at other times was exceedingly violent. What he did at times was outright deciet and lies, dishonesty by not honoring his word and treaties that he swore by. "Revalations" made these practices ok in Allahs eyes.


Sure I recognize that not all Muslims are violent and want "Death to America", but the day of 9/11 when I see the celebrations in the streets of the Arab world, that says more than anyone could imagine.

Jihad , whether hijacked as you say or not, has then grown a separate meaning and its very simple.

World conversion to Islam - by what ever means.


I wonder if you have even researched Islam yourself. Have you really looked into the origins of Mecca and the ties that the word Allah has with the moon gods of his brethren? Have you looked into just what was the real identity of the so called Angel "Gabriel" and how violent his encounter with Mohammad was? Have you ever wondered why it was so important for Mohammed to be accepted by the Jewish communities in Medina and Mecca, and that after they refuse to accept him a Prophet his outlook changes and he calls for their heads and gets them? Why does he allow the treatment of woman to be so vile? Why are mercy killings of women accepted as OK if it saves the honor of males of the family if the woman was raped?

Yeah, I have read about it and continue to do so. Matter of fact I quit reading about it a couple of weeks ago to take a break from the lies of the whole religion.

I will study Mormonism for a little while and then get back to Islam.

So you take the word jihad to only mean inner struggle, that is what most Muslim apologists do and yet when verses are pointed out in the Quran , Hadith, or Sira, they immediately claim that was just said for that specific occasion.

i am a muslim so i would know what it means, or does being muslim make me a Muslim apologists? and you a islamophobic?

Jihad means Struggle

source

The word Jihad is from the Arabic root word JHD which basically means striving or struggle. The question is striving for what or a struggle for what? The struggle is of two types, one is inner and one is outer. Both have the same purpose which is to change the status quo - a status which is not in line with God's will or not in line with nature as such, a status which causes unrest and disturbance. Thus, if there is an evil temptation for wrong doing and we struggle very hard to overcome that temptation, it is striving in the cause of God and is considered one of the best forms of Jihad. Thus if there is a tyrant ruler who is oppressing people and one stands up to that tyrant and says a word of truth against his rule it is also one form of Jihad.

Sure I recognize that not all Muslims are violent and want "Death to America", but the day of 9/11 when I see the celebrations in the streets of the Arab world, that says more than anyone could imagine.

why do these people shout Death to america?
i am sure its more to do with the USs stance in the middle east and less to do with faith, also last time i checked the attackers were former groups created by the US in the first place,


i just have suggestion
speak to muslims in real life you will learn more and yes
i am studying islam as required by my faith

anyhow its up to you mate if you want to learn something or just brush it aside

[edit on 3-6-2007 by bodrul]

Originally posted by bodruli am a muslim so i would know what it means, or does being muslim make me a Muslim apologists? and you a islamophobic?Jihad means Struggle

What it means in a definition online and what it REALLY means in the present daily life of many around the world are 2 different things.


jihad
A noun
1 jihad, jehad a holy struggle or striving by a Muslim for a moral or spiritual or political goal
Category Tree:
act; human action; human activity╚activity╚attempt; effort; endeavor; endeavour; try╚striving; nisus; pains; strain╚jihad, jehad

2 jihad, jehad, international jihad a holy war waged by Muslims against infidels
Category Tree:
act; human action; human activity╚group action╚military action; action
╚war; warfare╚jihad, jehad, international jihad

jihad


Definitions of Jihad on the Web

Arabic for "Holy war", that is, a war based on the clash of ideologies

Centuries-old Arabic term translated literally as "holy war" or "endeavor." In recent years, Muslim fighters, especially in the Arab-Israeli conflict, have used the term almost solely to mean "holy war," often waged through terrorist attacks on civilians. PLO chairman Yasir Arafat caused a stir when he called for a "jihad to liberate Jerusalem," even after renouncing the use of violence against Israel. ...

::Note Arafat word meant NOTHING -- Direct from the Koran as he even admitted in a speech.


The religious struggle or war against nonbelievers in Islam.

a holy war waged by Muslims against infidels or a holy struggle or striving by a Muslim for a moral or spiritual or political goal


There you have it, the meaning is clear in my mind as a 'war' be it internal or against infidels. I myself can not picture these fanatics claiming before they kill innocents in a market that their actions come from a 'inner struggle', can you?

Originally posted by bodrulwhy do these people shout Death to america?i am sure its more to do with the USs stance in the middle east and less to do with faith, also last time i checked the attackers were former groups created by the US in the first place,

Lets see , the United States created the Palestinians, Jordanians, Saudis, Syrians.....?? Come on....

You see that is what irks me, the United States does things that help the Muslims world and we NEVER get any credit, all we hear is that we support them nasty animals the Jews.

We saved Bosnia and stopped a genocide of Christians killing Muslims

We helped free Afghanistan from Soviet domination by helping the rebels and they thank us by 9/11, gee nice folks.

Well, the old Arab adage, the 'enemy of your enemy is your friend' says wonders.

Israel was granted nationhood by the United Nations, not the United States and yet we are at fault. The Arabs attacked them many time and lost their ass each time and they can not let it go. You see God will win and will protect the Jews, like it or not.

Originally posted by bodruli just have suggestion speak to muslims in real life you will learn more and yes i am studying islam as required by my faith

I do every time I get a chance, and it amazes me how ignorant they are of the history of their own religion, not all I will grant you, but an amazing number. One thing I will say here though is that Christians by in large are no different in this regard.

Originally posted by bodrulanyhow its up to you mate if you want to learn something or just brush it aside

Brush it aside? I have answered your questions for the most part and yet you brush aside my comments without even an acknowledgment that you even read them.

What about Muhammad's encounter with Gabriel? Did you know that Muhammad himself thought it was demonic? Are you aware of this?

Originally posted by edsinger
We helped free Afghanistan from Soviet domination by helping the rebels and they thank us by 9/11, gee nice folks.

Ed, Afghanistan had NOTHING to do with 9/11. Yet, we still went ahead and attacked Afghanistan. Their lives were already horrifying and poverty-stricken, yet we attacked a defenseless country and bombed them back to the stone age. Are you starting to understand, at least a little, why the Middle East hates U.S. foreign policies?

You also gave an URL for looking up Jihad, so I went there, clicked on the
Guardian's link and this is the definition I found, from your own sources:

"Jihad
The essential meaning of jihad is the spiritual, psychological and physical effort exerted by Muslims to be closer to God and thus achieve a just and harmonious society. Jihad literally means "striving" or "struggle" and is shorthand for Jihad fi Sabeel Allah (struggle for God's cause).

Another level of jihad is popularly known as "holy war". What is condoned is defensive warfare; Islam does not justify aggressive war."

Ed, I think you're cherry-picking information here. The Koran also tells Moslems to give hospitality to their enemies and to treat them as well as they would treat any Moslem. Yet, you don't include that.

You can go all through the Bible and find many acts of violence and a whole helluva lot of misogynist (women-hating) verses. I notice you didn't include that information, you only cited one example and dismissed all the others.
You won't learn anything if you approach the subject with a closed-mind with preconceived notions.
The Western mindset is so different from the Eastern one, that much study about Eastern thought/philosophy in general is required to understand the differences and nuances.

Originally posted by forestladyEd, Afghanistan had NOTHING to do with 9/11. Yet, we still went ahead and attacked Afghanistan. Their lives were already horrifying and poverty-stricken, yet we attacked a defenseless country and bombed them back to the stone age. Are you starting to understand, at least a little, why the Middle East hates U.S. foreign policies?

What? Afghanistan was sheltering Al-Qaeda, did you not know that? The Taliban was oppressing women like mad, you as a woman should look this up. Afghanistan as a country did not cause 911, their leaders condoned it, that is fact.

But in what I was referring to in that post was that the Mujahideen were supplied by the United States throughout the 1980's in their fight against the USSR and these same Mujaheddin where the forerunners of the group now known as AL Qaeda.

So yes , Afghanistan WAS involved.

Originally posted by forestladyYou also gave an URL for looking up Jihad, so I went there, clicked on the Guardian's link and this is the definition I found, from your own sources:

Of course I picked ones that stated the definition was war against infidels, just as the post I was replying to stated it was only an inner struggle.

Originally posted by forestlady
Ed, I think you're cherry-picking information here. The Koran also tells Moslems to give hospitality to their enemies and to treat them as well as they would treat any Moslem. Yet, you don't include that.

As well I could show when the Koran does NOT, look at what Muhammad did to the Jews who refused to believe in him, heck some of them even HELPED Muhammad fight his enemy's before he had them ALL killed and the women and children taken into slavery. Research it, look in the Hadith.

Originally posted by forestlady
You can go all through the Bible and find many acts of violence and a whole helluva lot of misogynist (women-hating) verses. I notice you didn't include that information, you only cited one example and dismissed all the others.

Not at all, the discussion was not the Bible it was the Koran, I gave an example of how the Bible can be taken as violent also.

Originally posted by forestladyYou won't learn anything if you approach the subject with a closed-mind with preconceived notions.
The Western mindset is so different from the Eastern one, that much study about Eastern thought/philosophy in general is required to understand the differences and nuances.

Preconceived? I am reading how the man came to power, how he used so called revelations to further his own desires and he even admitted it, you ever heard of the Satanic Verses? A book written about the subject damn near got a man killed and he still has a bounty on his head. Tolerant religion? The way he used revelations to further his agenda reminds me a lot of Joseph Smith of the Mormons.

When is the last time you saw an edict to have someone killed for defacing Christ? In the US the worst we get is people using taxpayer funds to show a picture of Christ on the Cross in a bottle of urine and yet Christians do not call for the death of these so called artists.

Islam is NOT tolerant of those that speak out against it at all. It is a religion of fear and intimidation.

If you do not believe this, then answer me one question,

How if a Christian chooses to leave the Church, he is just excommunicated and he goes on to live with his choice......meanwhile if a Muslim renounces his faith and becomes a buddhist, his death is called for.