F-22 Versus the YF-23...Who Would Win??!

The F-22 Raptor is undoubtly the most advanced Air Superiority Fighter in the world. It's advances are clearly multiple years ahead of all others top fighters in existance and in the development / Prototype stage. For arguments sake let's say that the F-22 Raptor had no stealth capability it would easily dispatch enemy hostiles using a myriad of equipment to maintain it's survivability against all enemy aircraft.
But what if the YF- 23 was introduced to the fray against the F-22 Raptor. it's been said that the YF-23 is superior in other ways. This is s imagined scenario but i'm curious to what other people think about this subject matter. Feel free to add to the discussion even if you disagree with me. I respect all of you who who share this wonderful site where we are allowed to discuss a myriad of fantastic ideas. Discuss.

I belive the YF-23 lost the contest over the F-22 due to the fact that the F-22 had the edge in close combat and the US wanted to keep some of that built into the aircraft. But I have read that the YF-23 was better in the stealth role. Cant say I know to be honest. They YF-23 shape to me IMHO was way out there. Hope this helps

YF-22 would win and the F-22A would win hands down.


The YF-22 could do pretty much everything the YF-23 could do, only it was more manouverable and had a better operating envelope.


The F-22A is much updated throught the EMD, and would beat the YF-23 with quite large kill ratios.


Also, if you think the F-22 procurement is small, how small do you think it would be for a developed F-23?



The USAF clearly made the right choice picking the YF-22 over the YF-23, nothing will change that, no matter how many Black Widow fans post otherwise.

[edit on 26/5/07 by kilcoo316]

Ive always said that they should have procured both...the 23 was probably faster and more stealthy which would have optimized it for the ATG role and the BVR role, and while it was off bombing a target, some 22s would fly escort.

Despite this, the USAF made the choice based on everything, not just everything released. One significant reason is the dorsal airframe of the 23.

-Note the large "humps" the engines make. This is not good for supersonic flight at all - these would produce a very significant downforce.
-The V tail has no advantage except stealth. Maneuverability is cut in half in both pitch and yaw. Roll is affected severely. the 23 wasnt just not as agile as the 22 - it was probably not as agile as the F-15.
-The diamond wing, while stealthy, produces much less lift than the near delta of the 22, raising minimum speed and lowering range.

the 23 was designed around stealth and ATA on the side, while the 22 was designed for both equally.

We should definately see the 23 as a bomber though - it would be unmatced for years.

Ive always said that they should have procured both...the 23 was probably faster and more stealthy which would have optimized it for the ATG role and the BVR role, and while it was off bombing a target, some 22s would fly escort.

Despite this, the USAF made the choice based on everything, not just everything released. One significant reason is the dorsal airframe of the 23.

-Note the large "humps" the engines make. This is not good for supersonic flight at all - these would produce a very significant downforce.
-The V tail has no advantage except stealth. Maneuverability is cut in half in both pitch and yaw. Roll is affected severely. the 23 wasnt just not as agile as the 22 - it was probably not as agile as the F-15.
-The diamond wing, while stealthy, produces much less lift than the near delta of the 22, raising minimum speed and lowering range.

the 23 was designed around stealth and ATA on the side, while the 22 was designed for both equally.

We should definately see the 23 as a bomber though - it would be unmatced for years.

It Would Be a Draw!

I've studied both planes to a given degree. Each has advantages and disadvantages in a fight. If we assume that the two aircraft would be given pilots of relitivly equal skill for the match-up, I believe that each plane could stay outside of the other plane's engagement envelope and avoid being killed.

Tim

The YF-23 had better stealth than the F-22 so IMHO that would be a bigger advantage if it was a huge difference (No one knows how better for sure)

Originally posted by FredT
The YF-23 had better stealth than the F-22 so IMHO that would be a bigger advantage if it was a huge difference (No one knows how better for sure)

At longer range that could be a considerable advantage. However, if you bring the fight to within "gun range" it wouldn't make a huge difference. You have to account for the fighting environment your going to be in. On the same note in BVR, the F-22's extra agility would make little defference.

Tim

Originally posted by BlackWidow23

Despite this, the USAF made the choice based on everything, not just everything released. One significant reason is the dorsal airframe of the 23.

-Note the large "humps" the engines make. This is not good for supersonic flight at all - these would produce a very significant downforce.

The 23 was designed around stealth and ATA on the side, while the 22 was designed for both equally.

We should definately see the 23 as a bomber though - it would be unmatced for years.

BlackWidow23, you bring up many excellent points about the design differences and roles each stealth fighter/attack plane has to offer. I didn't even realize that the humps on the engines would effect the YF-23 Black Widow's supersonic flight role. Additionally you speak of the YF-23's ability as a bomber. That is a very clever idea! Thanks for posting your thoughts on this issue.

[edit on 27-5-2007 by carnival_of_souls2047]

[edit on 27-5-2007 by carnival_of_souls2047]

Originally posted by kilcoo316
YF-22 would win and the F-22A would win hands down.

The YF-22 could do pretty much everything the YF-23 could do, only it was more manouverable and had a better operating envelope.

The USAF clearly made the right choice picking the YF-22 over the YF-23, nothing will change that, no matter how many Black Widow fans post otherwise.

[edit on 26/5/07 by kilcoo316]

Kilcoo, thank you for your posts on this issue. Wow, I did not know that the F-22 Raptor was more manouverable than the YF-23 Black Widow and equally as stealthy to boot. You make a very salient point on this issue. I tend to believe that you are correct in your acesssment. I greatly appreciate your honest opinions and expertise in this subject matter!

I just found something on the ATF decidion that I though might add to this discussion:

Lockheed/B/GD compromised low observables performance to achieve greater agility, whereas Northrop/MDC focussed on stealth, speed and radius performance [Editor's Note 2005: more recent disclosures indicate that the YF-23 was capable of achieving all specified agility points without thrust vectoring, unlike the YF-22]. The USAF's decision will clearly illustrate which of these parameters are considered of greater value in the projected strategic air war of the future.

Source: ATF

While old, this does provide a perspective on this discussion. The key issue is that the US Military is an orginization built on years of tradition. Our pilots are especially picky about staying with what they know and trust. Stealth is relativly new to air warfare. Radar evading aircraft were relitivly unknown in full scale combat in 1991 (January 1991 was when the F-117 made it entrance in a major war for the first time). Agility, on the other hand had been proven in air combat since World War 1. The Air Force chose to go what what they knew best!

Plus, there were a lot of other factors in the decision the Buy the F-22 over the YF-23 that aren't even listed here. At the end of the day, I believe the Air Force made a good choice.

Tim