Originally posted by AryanWatch
After the establishment of United States of America, more and more immigrants arriving from all over the world to this land to pursuit what they believed as the “American dream” where at last, they would possess the fundamental rights of their existence; they would understand the true meanings of happiness and life. Within less than two hundred years, America became the leading nation in world’s military, technology, and economy, surpassed every other nations that had had thousands of years of history.

While your americana rhetoric is beautiful, that was a different time with different people. When our country was founded, it WAS genuine. The lawmakers did have honest intentions. It was all quite liberal for the times. It would've been a good time for a U.S. Patriot to live.

Now is the worst time for a Patriot to live. It's good to love your nation, but blindly following into uncertain war can lead to doom and upheaval. What will be a good time for Americans will be the repair and rebuild phase, when we have a new President who's intent on fixing all the problems the previous administration inadvertently created or made worse from the Clinton era. That will be a golden day, when the troops come marching in from Iraq and Afghanistan, regardless of what they leave behind; be it no fellow soldier.

The War on Terror is tricky. Some say its fake and orchestrated. Some say its in cahoots with Washington DC, the terror groups. All kinds of wild theories fly. The 9/11 theories, all of it. So an honest person like me, I can't believe with 100% faith like my faith in our God that everything happened exactly the way it was explained, everyone was clueless about it, that they 'honestly thought there was WMD's in Iraq' etc etc. I'm sorry, it is asking too much to put Godly faith into Government. It's evil by definition to do that, because that is a Secular Government, and the Bible teaches that only God granted Judiciary is true Judiciary (Old Testament).

For every house we accidently bomb in Iraq, we've created a terrorist or two that have yet to even mature; the orphaned children, the estranged family members, the ones left. Their hatred becomes intense, and they begin to fight america. There are entire generations of terrorists that havent even passed puberty yet, that will someday blow themselves up in suicide attacks. This stuff is going to be going on for at least another decade.

How do I know? Prophecy.

A-Watch, I'm not coming down on you alone. It is the symbolic nature of what you said. That is one of the things you failed to read closely.

First, many assumed my thread was bashing America, and it required pages of reading to realize that it wasn't. Blaine19555 and AngryAmerican both felt that way, and we have come out the other side realizing that we agree more than disagree.

Second, you assumed that the mod who moved me would not have done so unless I was really "ranting", yet my tone and demeanor was no different than yours in this thread. And the subject matter was the same.

Third, you failed to stand up for the same right for me to be in this section that you want for yourself. I find that to be the new American way, to want things great for one's own position, but make no effort to see how another person is being treated as unfair.

I draw "big" conclusions because actions speak louder than words. You assume that those who question, who want meaningful change in our nation's course are bashers.

And I am sorry that you can't see the blatant ass kissing that was so evident when you said I MUST have really been ranting to have a mod move my thread. This was an open pucker to avoid the same fate. Or it was blindly accepting that a mod, human as they are, could have been wrong. Or both.

And did I not say that it could all be rectified by moving my thread back?

You see, when we FAIL to stand up for the rights of others, we lose too. I do feel that you have a right to express yourself here, and not in the closet of the rant section, but you blindly accepted the authoritarian judgment of my thread, WITHOUT reading the entire thing.

And you expect that I will say nothing?

I am not against your position here, I am trying to show you that you too are falling into the easy trap of CYOA and let everyone else do the same. And that is exactly the way our masters want it. Remember, United We Stand?

Oh, and I personally find it bad form to comment on any thread, or even post in one unless I take the effort to read it from beginning to end. It shows a lack of respect.

it has become obvious that making your nation what it is today was a huge mistake on our part, im fine with hunting down binladen but what im not ok with is when the US drag us into a war and now wont pull out even though where done in iraq.
hopefully wel have a competent prime minister before you declare war on iran or korea.

i was fine with the war and then rebuilding or iraq but now its just ridiculous we should have already left.

Originally posted by AryanWatch

A mob doesn't become a nation.

I beg to differ, that is how the USA start a disgruntled mob came here from England and they were not yet a nation, in fact most of them were considered outcasts and criminals by English standards, so a mob does become a nation.

Brit- sorry, you get neither the blame nor the credit for our nation. Your forefathers fought tooth and nail, twice, to keep us as subjects. If you did anything, it was to 'create' a nation that has more free thinkers than any spot on Earth, and that was only by the fact that we were to stubborn to submit to tyranny.

And we are not submitting to our own brand of that beast now. You are seeing the tip of the iceberg in this pages. The discontent in America is way deeper than these pages will ever show.

And if you think we fight and rage with one another on these pages, read our history and learn that our early arguments on the direction of this nation were every bit as stormy in the 1770s.

Patriots are like that. But in the end we will have a revitalized America, or we will go down in flames. Freedom is too strong in our blood for any other outcome.

Blind patriotism is like dining in the dark. Sure it smells good and tastes good too, but are you really eager to swallow?. My hope is that Americans awaken quickly to the realities of our true history and the push now to drive this country back to second tier status. We only have a few short years. Getting rid of your television is a good start. Why do you think they call it programming?

Originally posted by YIAWETA
Blind patriotism is like dining in the dark. Sure it smells good and tastes good too, but are you really eager to swallow?. My hope is that Americans awaken quickly to the realities of our true history and the push now to drive this country back to second tier status. We only have a few short years. Getting rid of your television is a good start. Why do you think they call it programming?

I agree, in part.

People have to give their power away first. It is all by choice whether people want to admit it or not people make the choice and give their rights, and freedoms away. I don't think it is just the TV, but the "I can afford the monthly payment mentality." Once people have locked themselves into a diversity of the monthly payments, they no better than an indentured servant. Once your a servant by choice you have no time to stand up for individuals rights.

There is nothing wrong with wanting more, but too many people are going overboard will put a strain on life.

I think personal responsibility is extremely important these days and that included our leaders, but many people just want to point fingers and pass the buck.

I do love the USA and I know that some wise people made some unwise decisions, but mistakes can be learned from, making the wise person wise again.



[edit on 23-5-2007 by Realtruth]

Yiaweta, it's not just TV, it's many small things. But the biggest is apathy. People just don't care until it's too late. They eat, drink, and fornicate, and take so little time to think for themselves. It has gotten to the point that someone who does think, and exhorts others to do the same, is an outcast.

Why do you think my thread got put into the rant section? Guess the weighty subjects being discussed in that area?
1)Game - A-Z of ATS members Names
2)Which is the Better Star Trek Captain....
3)The emoticons collector thread
4)Viagra May Eliviate Jet Lag
5)Don't pee on your PS2

But seemingly some mod thought that a thread on trying to actually do something about the conspiracy to stifle the American Constitution was in the same league as these subjects. That can only reflect on said mods mental state at the time, or else it was an active effort to stifle any debate that might cause people to really think and change their minds about America's policies. And this was a thread with over twenty flags and lively debate.

So the things that are wrong in America are seriously in need of a good healthy look.

Originally posted by AryanWatch

You don't have to support the War on Terrorism to be a patriot who loves his/her Country -- quite the opposite.

You made a great point. But is this not one of the many occassions when all of us get frenzied and starting unterring nonsense about what we as a nation are doing?

This thread is just flame bait, according to this statement imo.

"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer. "

God Bless America,
Land that I love.
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless America, My home sweet home.

The USA was never so great. It was built upon the bodies of its native inhabitants and foreign slaves. Even females were treated as second class citizens until some time after World War I. And minorities didn't even get equal rights until 40+ year ago.

It wasn't until the last 100+ years that the USA started becoming a country that was fair to its own citizens. However it still treats people on an international level with disdain. I'm not even going into the War on Terror here.

Now I will discuss the current War on Terror. You can't avoid talk of conspiracy here on ATS. IMO this war was started upon one of the biggest government coups in history if not the biggest. Plus Iraq and its WMDs are basically an open conspiracy depending on your viewpoint on the subject.

This war is a sham and shows the ugly side of the United States of America for all that it is. History may not record it as such, but many of us living during that time will have understood exactly what it was.

[edit on 23-5-2007 by Frith]

While its clear you love your nation and are proud to live there (as most people should be about their homeland) Why do you support the war on terror ? What about this specific war deserves your unfaultering allegence?

I've read through the thread and came up with a well put statement. But 1 movie sums up our future,and is all to real nowadays. V for Vendetta. Every facet of that film,from the total control,to the blind following.

It is good to love your country,it is good to have hope that your country is doing the right thing. But never become blind. Never put anything past your government,no matter how bizarre the theory.

Iraq was unnecessary. But while everyone is talking about leaving iraq,no one is speaking on afghanistan. You know,that country next to pakistan that was ruled by the taliban gov't and harbored al-qaeda. A country where we are building schools and the locals are helping. What happens to afghanistan when we leave iraq? Will it continue to be forgotten?

Desert storm-clear victory,clear objective. Big welcome home. --similar to ww2 in that aspect.

Afghanistan- war continues,but does not get attention needed. --similar to Korean war

Iraq- war continues,objective is not clear. No end in sight. Neighboring countries coming in to fight. Gets all media attention. ---Vietnam

Originally posted by Frith
The USA was never so great. It was built upon the bodies of its native inhabitants and foreign slaves.

You are right, but if you take your statement and apply to any other country you will come up with similar histories, not just the USA.

Yes, unfortunately, when you decide to fight something besides another country, things get pretty messy, whether it's the "War on Drugs" or the "War on Terror," or whatever. The biggest problem is that you don't know exactly who you're fighting. Not like the good old days when we knew we were fighting Hitler and Hirohito and Mussolini.

When you fight the War on Terror, you don't know who your enemies are. You should still remember that the second largest and most destructive terrorist act in the U.S. was completely home-grown. Oklahoma City. So if you want to include people like Timothy McVeigh in the War on Terror, you're going to have keep a close eye and crack down on people inside the country, as well as outside. And that starts to rub the Constitution in a very wrong way. In fact, you may end up fighting against people who sincerely love the U.S. even more than you do, they just interpret what that means differently. It's the holy wars all over again.

And the dumb thing is that the War on Terror doesn't make us any less likely to be victims of a terror strike. So what is the ultimate point?

All in all, it's a sad, messy business. Maybe the best we can hope for is that we don't end up trading away too much of our freedom in exchange for some bogus promise of security.

Support what you wish. It's still a free country...Or is it? I mean since the Pat Act. I guess were free as long as we don't look like a terrorist..wait what does a terrorist look like? maybe they look middle eastern, or was it that guy with long hair who drinks beer on his front porch watching his dogs play in the front yard,Or was it that young mother who was wearing an anti-bush shirt,or maybe that guy in the cubical next to you who is always typing on that ATS board? I forget what they look like..Maybe we should just not worry about what they look like and just shut up and not think for ourself and do as the administration says we should and just support this war on terror even though terror has no identity? Yea..you go ahead and support what you want I think I'll look and think before I leap.

However it still treats people on an international level with disdain

Frith - How do you draw this conclusion? What is the source of your observation/opinion? This is a very bold statement you are making. I'am just curious.


Edit - for misspelling

[edit on 23-5-2007 by AryanWatch]

What about this specific war deserves your unfaultering allegence?

This war will be remembered in history not by the records that the chat forums,conspiracy theorists,psycho-pseudo- sympathizers and humanitarian aid agencies maintain,rather it would be known as a brave attempt by a powerful nation to put a democratically elected government in a war torn third world nation which has nothing to boast except oil and terrorist hideouts. And I'am totally committed to this cause. If this odjective requires sacrifices,we will make it.Infact we have already sacrificed our brave soldiers for this cause.Haven't we? History is not written by the loosers. I'am sure you know this.And if someone is trying to convince that all those lives of our men was lost and it was a mistake - I'am not gonna accept that.

I see a lot of comments directed at me...I would prefer to respond to each one of them individually.U2U's are welcome.

Originally posted by AryanWatch
rather it would be known as a brave attempt by a powerful nation to put a democratically elected government in a war torn third world nation which has nothing to boast except oil and terrorist hideouts.

I like that notion, it offers a compassionate look at US Foreign policy. Unfortunately, it does not look critically at the facts. US foreing policy which deals with thrid world countries, has little to do with installing democracy, and everything to do with installing a client-state free market economy. Saddams was guilty of many crimes. but the crimes US leaders and policy makers were concerned about were not humanitarian, they were economic. For instance, nationalizing the oil industry and a healthcare system (whatever you want to say about Iraq, it had one ofthe highest standards of living of ME countries pre-Gulf War I) If you install a social program that cuts into the profits of multinational corporations you are viewed as suspect and are more than likely to incure the wrath of US intervention.

If you need proof of this i suggest you look into the democratic struggles of such countries as Haiti, Nicaragua, Chile, Panama, Grenada, Iran, Afganistan, Libia, Angola, Mozambique, Yugoslavia, and many others. All of which have suffered either direct US military involvement, or counterrevolutionary proxy/mercinary wars with US support.

"An important part of US foreign policy is to make the world safe for the fortune 500, to protect the overall Global capital accumulation system."

US foreign policy has actively supported and aided dictators and fascists all across the globe, and it is neither by accident or by folly, but by design These autocratic rulers and fascists support "free market" reforms, crush social programs and unions, and repress the population.

I see a lot of comments directed at me...I would prefer to respond to each one of them individually.U2U's are welcome.

Unfortunately, you put your heart on a the plate, we are all taking stabs at it i guess

Edit: Quote from Michael Parenti

[edit on 23-5-2007 by InSpiteOf]