Yesterday was a dark day in our country's history, when we effectively gave the keys to the front door to the illegal immigrants and their supporters.

Tell then, how was the United States created? correct me if I was wrong, it was built on European immigrant that took the land from the natives.

Please don't be so blind to your history. It was built on immigrant from the colonies. Its funny how you don't like it when history repeats itself, eh?

[edit on 22-5-2007 by infinite]

Originally posted by infinite
Please don't be so blind to your history. It was built on immigrant from the colonies. Its funny how you don't like it when history repeats itself, eh?

This is not history repeating itself. We did not walk into a fully functioning super-power and demand to be treated like citizens, with all the accompanying benefits and social safety nets that we now enjoy.

There were no immigration laws or treaties that existed at the time. We broke no laws.

Learn about the history of the US before you make such asinine statements.

Originally posted by jsobecky
This is not history repeating itself. We did not walk into a fully functioning super-power and demand to be treated like citizens, with all the accompanying benefits and social safety nets that we now enjoy.

No, but you walked into someone else's land and demanded it for yourself.

Even after the colonies, the United States was still built on immigration, which you refuse to acknowledge. Those immigrants were brought into society and made to feel American, but the new generation are simply ignored.

By crying "its a dark day for our country" is just laughable. Its sad that some Americans fail to understand that THEY are immigrants and the nation you love was built by immigration.

And something you need to understand, especially about the South West of America. That part was "New Spain", which was historically apart of Mexico. Mexico and "New Spain" became one after the Mexican war of independence. So, Mexico did include the modern South West. America gained those states after the Mexican-American war.

And that is the problem you guys face today. Many Mexicans (and even the Mexican government) see that part of the US as THEIR LAND. Which should be alarming to you yanks. Plus, the immigrants see it as their land too. What do you do? say we won it fair and square in a war (which us Europeans use to say) or do you consider partitioning parts of it? But in about 10 years, that part of America is going to become heated when you get a Latino majority. Hostile laws and fence building is only going to make things worse.

There were no immigration laws or treaties that existed at the time. We broke no laws.

Thats because the colonists came in and WROTE the laws.

Learn about the history of the US before you make such asinine statements.

I have thank you. Especially about colonialism and the effects of immigration today.

[edit on 22-5-2007 by infinite]

Originally posted by infinite
No, but you walked into someone else's land and demanded it for yourself.

It was nobody's land. There were no borders, no states. It was occupied by a collection of tribes, mostly nomadic.

If we took it away from anyvody, we took it away from you, and kicked your butts back across the pond. That's what really irks you, isn't it?

Even after the colonies, the United States was still built on immigration, which you refuse to acknowledge. Those immigrants were brought into society and made to feel American, but the new generation are simply ignored.

Legal immigration, which I fully acknowledge, so I don't know why you're trying to bait me into a distracting topic.

And something you need to understand, especially about the South West of America. That part was "New Spain", which was historically apart of Mexico. Mexico and "New Spain" became one after the Mexican war of independence. So, Mexico did include the modern South West. America gained those states after the Mexican-American war.

Gained those states after the war. As did every other country in this world that expanded their borders, so why are you singling us out?

There were no immigration laws or treaties that existed at the time. We broke no laws.

Thats because the colonists came in and WROTE the laws.

Uh, yeah? So what?

Please stop trolling this thread. If you have anything to add to the discussion, please do, but otherwise, your attempts to sidetrack the topic are not appreciated.

Uh, yeah? So what?

Please stop trolling this thread. If you have anything to add to the discussion, please do, but otherwise, your attempts to sidetrack the topic are not appreciated.

his view point is different than your own - and yet you jump to name calling. how sad.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Please stop trolling this thread. If you have anything to add to the discussion, please do, but otherwise, your attempts to sidetrack the topic are not appreciated.

No, I have given a opinion on a subject and added to it. Just because I don't agree with your views doesn't mean I am trolling.

Notice how I haven't resulted in name calling and you have. how sad.

You have not given an opionion on the topic of this thread. You have merely tried to divert the topic by interjecting some irrelevant, questionable statements. Those are the actions of a troll.

If you choose to troll this thread, there's not much I can do except to ignore your posts. To continue responding to your diversionary responses would be playing into your hands, and that is what you want. You seek attention, and you seek to derail threads by interjecting your anti-American attitude.

Have fun.

Infinite... time to get a clue, or at a minimum, a history lesson.

True America was born of immigrants... LEGAL IMMIGRANTS! Ever hear of a quant little place called ELLIS ISLAND!? I have - it's the point of entray for millions upon million of LEGAL IMMIGRANTS! My grandparents - all 4 of them - passed through those sacred halls, registered with the federal government, received the appropriate paperwork, passed their physicals and THEN, and ONLY THEN did they integrate into society.

Once here, they ASSIMILATED! Yes, they learned English, they learned the customs, values and norms. They brought with them skills and trades and contributed to the development of the country.

Today is different and if you want to obfuscate and shill for the "poor immigrant" that is fine - but wrong. Today they do not follow ANY legal immigration procedure. They DO NOT learn English. They DO NOT complete physicals or receive innoculations as required. They DEMAND social services - medical, education, welfare etc... They demand the rights afforded CITIZENS - wage protection, voting, social security etc... All at the expense of the true American Citizen!

Your ignorance and short-sightedness on this issue is simply mystifying!

Wow, I'm surprised to see Sanders on that list, he's a socialist.

Of course I'm sure my two evil senators Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer love this.

Being conservative and against packing up these folks and shipping them off (for the most part), I am still at odds with this bill.

It's almost like they said "Ya know what? Let's make the most ridiculous immigration bill ever to grace the halls of Congress, then defend it like it actually has some merit. That'll be good for a great big laugh."

There really is only 1 problem with letting in people hand over fist, or allowing those already here illegally to stay.

Socialism in America. Simple as that.

Basically, if I was them, I wouldn't comply with this law either, so I'm not entirely sure how this is supposed to entice anyone into doing the right thing.

However, this is about economics and border security, not anything else, although tons of other crap gets thrown in.

There are plenty of sticks in this bill, but we've been duped before. I think all the carrots will implemented right away (z-visa) and the sticks (fine, border fence, etc.) will never be.

Eh, I'm not really concerned with sticks and carrots cause really all they should get is sticks really.

If I was them I'd come here illegally too if I needed to, but I surely wouldn't expect any carrots by doing it (duh, take a peak at Mexican immigration policy).

Simply remove the mechanism of abuse (Social Programs), remove the minimum wage, lock the borders (yes both), and increase the number of people coming in legally.

That, to me, would be far more effective for all Americans, not just these people.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
It's almost like they said "Ya know what? Let's make the most ridiculous immigration bill ever to grace the halls of Congress, then defend it like it actually has some merit. That'll be good for a great big laugh."

You know, I was thinking the same thing today. Consider this:

Most Senators and Representatives are lawyers. Many have advanced degrees from Ivy League colleges and universities.

Many of them are wealthy men and women.

They have access to the best research and investigative resources in the country.

They are not uneducated, underprivileged people.

And this piece of garbage is the best that they could come up with for an immigration reform bill??

Originally posted by kozmo
Today is different and if you want to obfuscate and shill for the "poor immigrant" that is fine - but wrong. Today they do not follow ANY legal immigration procedure. They DO NOT learn English. They DO NOT complete physicals or receive innoculations as required. They DEMAND social services - medical, education, welfare etc... They demand the rights afforded CITIZENS - wage protection, voting, social security etc... All at the expense of the true American Citizen!

EXACTLY! Why are some ppl so dead set against America haveing laws of its own? As if we somehow are not a nation of our own because we immigrated here (legally i might add).. Pisses me off. It is our right to tell these ppl to flip off because of the above mentioned services that they leech off of THAT WE CREATED!!. And they "owned" (which I use very loosely) the southwest part of the US for only 26 years before the US took it forcefully and then bought it from them. Now how long has the southwest part of the US been apart of the new country (the US)? (alot longer then 26 years) If anything they were just as guilty as us in the earlier days as we were back then (well thats not exactly true.. Atleast we payed for the land after we kicked there asses off of it..) We just happened to beat them at there own game. To the victors go the spoils of war.



[edit on 083131p://5105pm by semperfoo]

Originally posted by KrazyJethro

If I was them I'd come here illegally too if I needed to, but I surely wouldn't expect any carrots by doing it (duh, take a peak at Mexican immigration policy).

This is where things become very hypocritical. The mexican government is tough on illegal immigration to there country especially at the south of there border (ppl trying to get to america through mexico). They patrol this part of there border with armed personnel. It is also a felony to be in mexico illegally. You then have to go through the corrupt system of the mexican ljudicial system if you are caught.. Good luck getting out alive. (thats if you dont have enough money to pay off the officials.)

These ppl dont respect us. They stare at our women as if they are big juicy steak, curse at us in there native tongue, expect more from us then they do themselves..it really goes on.and on. Learn the language, embrace american history and culture, or get the # out. Its that simple.

Originally posted by semperfoo
These ppl dont respect us. They stare at our women as if they are big juicy steak, curse at us in there native tongue, expect more from us then they do themselves..it really goes on.and on.

This is very difficult to support categorically, not to mention unfair. I'm fairly certain that they have the standard mix, more or less, in Mexico as we do here. A-holes, hard workers, bums, earnest people, etc, etc.

Learn the language, embrace American history and culture, or get the # out. Its that simple.

I wasn't aware this was a requirement to be in America or even to be an American. When push comes to shove, immigration only requires one generation (worst case 2) for people to come over to our side.

I've seen it with asian folks from Vietnam or Korea in my area. The parents speak their native tongue and push traditional values while the kids text message how lame their parents are, etc, etc.

I am not one to force people to do anything that is not required by law, and many times I wouldn't even recommend following most of the pathetic laws we have on the books.

We have a far bigger problem in the following 3 categories than we have with "non-assimilation":

1) the media - do I really need to say any more than that?

2) the government

3) our domestic and international economic policy