When I gassed up this week, I got angry!

The fact that that oil companies are making record profits by chargin high prices at the pump, did not anger me. The fact that oil companies made record profits by having blood shed to protect their raw material supply, did not anger me. The fact that oil companies made record profits by selling a product that endangers our ecology, did not anger me. While I was filling up on gas, the gas pump was playing advertisements for me. The oil companies need to sell advertisements to maximize their profits! The nerve of these people!

Oil companies are truly the scum of the earth.

I agree. Are we honestly supposed to believe, with all this science and amazing technology around us, that we can't in the last 100 years create a car engine that doesnt require the inefficient use of fossil fuels? Apparently we are and do. They have been conspiring to milk us of every last penny until the oil runs out for the last 100 years.

This is a far more complex argument than the tabloid press chooses to ask us to believe for a huge range of reasons. To take your points very briefly in order:

Most oil company profits do not come from charging high prices at the pumps, to quote Lord Browne of BP...

We of course first of all make most of our money in what I think most people would regard as the wholesale market - that is the production of oil and gas - not in the refining and sales of petrol and so forth,"

The margins made by petrol resellers are generally very low. Most importantly, it is actually remarkably hard to be very specific about what the cost of producing a gallon of petrol is as this is basically one of a whole range of byproducts from crude oil refining and how you spread the cost of exploration, recovery transport and refining etc is a (very) moot point.

The blood shed in the pursuit of oil would stop immediately if we as consumers did not demand the oil. This is a desperately simplistic statement of course, but to ignore the motivation which drives oil companies to practice their trade in more and more unstable areas of the world would only be to stick our heads in the sand. WE are the consumers who demand oil and oil products.

The oil companies sell a product which endangers our ecology because we demand it. There are lots of potential alternatives and they've been around for many years, from hydrogen engines and electric vehicles to a radical change in cultural attitudes to reduce the reliance on domestic car ownership and travel. Unfortunately we have demanded petrol, and latterly diesel, engined cars because they provide the most flexible low cost solution to our desire for unfettered travel. Should we really be surprised that neither the oil companies or motor industry are happy to satisfy our demands?

Finally, if the oil companies can make more profits from selling advertising then why the hell shouldn't they? (Forgetting for a moment that the adverts were probably sold by the petrol station franchisee which may not be part of the oil company itself). Once again, this is no more than a symptom of our consumer culture which is driven by guess who? - US, the consumers. You cannot escape the fact that advertising works and as long as we, as individuals, can be so easily influenced by advertising people will find ever more imaginative and intrusive ways to use it. If you don't like adverts with your fuel (and I don't think we have them in this manner in the UK yet), the don't use those petrol stations and write to the owner to tell him why you have taken your custom elsewhere. However, why, in principle, listening to an advert whilst in a retail environment is somehow worse that being bombarded with tacky commercials when I am trying to listen to the radio I have no idea.

I'm not suggesting that there aren't some very unsavoury aspects of big business and the oil companies especially but to pretend that we as consumers are not ultimately responsible for much of the way in which they act is simply to try to evade our responsibility as individuals.

[edit on 22-5-2007 by timeless test]

So why can't the oil companies take a page from Wal-mart's playbook and sell wholesale gas at a loss, so that the consumers can realize lower prices. If they are making record profits anyway, wouldn't everyone benefit if they were a bit less greedy?

Originally posted by keeb333
So why can't the oil companies take a page from Wal-mart's playbook and sell wholesale gas at a loss, so that the consumers can realize lower prices.

Two answers:

1. Why on earth would they? They have shareholders to report to who may regard that as a slightly foolish move and their business model seems to be quite successful as it is already.

2. As I said, it's actually something of a moot point just how much producing a gallon of petrol actually does cost and there are some analysts who would suggest that they do indeed sell it at close to cost.

The real way to cut fuel costs is to reduce the tax and duty levels on it. All you have to ask yourself then is what would I like to be taxed instead?

I get a little madder every time I visit the pump and spend $25 filling up a tank that cost me $10 to fill just a few short years ago. I am not, however, angry at the gas companies. I've seen their profit margins and they're not doing anything unethical in my opinion. What angers me is that politicians and environmentalists have prevented any new refineries from being built and prevented us from tapping oil supplies existing in the US that could be accessed with minimal damage to the environment.

I'm not yelling left or right here, I just wish that both parties would set aside their differences and make this happen before the average American gets squeezed so hard that they pop. As for the enviromentalists, I'm one too, one with sense though. I spend a lot of time hiking and I've participated in two park cleanup projects already this year, so I'm not some "nature poser". I get out and do the work. I think that there's a way to get some of the US oil and protect the environment at the same time. It may cost a little bit more to be environmentally safe, but it's still going to be cheaper than importing it like we are now.

I know this is really boring, (sorry), but just a reminder of petrol prices in Europe. My weekly fill up costs approx $110 and I remember thinking that no one would stand for it when was $50.

Now, attitudes in the US may be different but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the civil insurrection if I were you.

Originally posted by timeless test

The real way to cut fuel costs is to reduce the tax and duty levels on it. All you have to ask yourself then is what would I like to be taxed instead?

This is certainly a major part of the problem. Here in my home state of Pennsylvania, the taxes on every gallon of gas are 50.7 cents (state + federal). So, for my little honda civic, around $5.00 of every fill up is going to taxes. It's absolutely absurd. At current gas rates, that amounts to around a 20% tax just so that I can drive my car. Nevermind the fees we pay for plates, registration, drivers license, etc. I'm so sick and tired of the government dipping in my pockets deeper and deeper every year while I get nothing out of it.

Originally posted by timeless test
Most oil company profits do not come from charging high prices at the pumps, to quote Lord Browne of BP...

We of course first of all make most of our money in what I think most people would regard as the wholesale market - that is the production of oil and gas - not in the refining and sales of petrol and so forth,"

The margins made by petrol resellers are generally very low. Most importantly, it is actually remarkably hard to be very specific about what the cost of producing a gallon of petrol is as this is basically one of a whole range of byproducts from crude oil refining and how you spread the cost of exploration, recovery transport and refining etc is a (very) moot point.

[edit on 22-5-2007 by timeless test]

Bullocks, Bullocks and more BULLOCKS!!! Of course he's going to say that crap - hint: HE'S LYING!!! Anyone who has taken even just a few courses in business knows full well that NO BUSINESS in the world functions the way that this individual is presenting it. Don't think for 10 seconds that multi-billion dollar profit companies don't have their cost and profit centers figurded to the freaking penny! And don't fool yourself into thinking that they haven't engineered it as such to MAXIMIZE every single profit center - that is what they are paid to do!

The way that oil and gas are handled is the epitome of anti-trust and collusion. This is nothing more than pricing fixing on the largest scale and the consumer is being fleeced! Anyone who believes differently is either sadly mistaken or ignorant.

Originally posted by kozmo
Don't think for 10 seconds that multi-billion dollar profit companies don't have their cost and profit centers figurded to the freaking penny!

Actually, I've taken more than a few business courses as I run a manufacturing company and am an industrially trained cost accountant by profession. Have you ever done any work on the costing of byproducts? It's a very interesting exercise if you like that sort of thing.

In the words of the old joke you could ask four different accountants how much a gallon of petrol costs to produce and get five different answers, (at least).

[edit on 22-5-2007 by timeless test]

Originally posted by BlueTriangle
I am not, however, angry at the gas companies. I've seen their profit margins and they're not doing anything unethical in my opinion.

Do you really believe that? Exxon/Mobil's profits have been at record numbers:

Oil giant Exxon Mobil Corp. on Thursday posted the largest annual profit by a U.S. company — $39.5 billion — even as earnings for the last quarter of 2006 declined 4 percent.

The 2006 profit topped Exxon Mobil’s own previous record of $36.13 billion set in 2005.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

I get so freakin angry every time I fill up and it is definitely at the gas companies. We are talking $40 billion in profit, not revenue, but profit. To me, that is exorbitant and unethical.

I get so freakin angry every time I fill up and it is definitely at the gas companies. We are talking $40 billion in profit, not revenue, but profit. To me, that is exorbitant and unethical.

This is exactly my point. The greedy oil companies could easily cut the price of gas and still make truckloads of money. Why not spread some goodwill instead of hoarding the profit?

Originally posted by keeb333
Why not spread some goodwill instead of hoarding the profit?

...because we live in a capitalist economy which practices more or less free market principles. Businesses are there to make money for their owners, not to spread a little happiness.

Originally posted by timeless test

Originally posted by keeb333
Why not spread some goodwill instead of hoarding the profit?

...because we live in a capitalist economy which practices more or less free market principles. Businesses are there to make money for their owners, not to spread a little happiness.

I agree, but there is a difference between making money and taking advantage of basicly "captive" consumers. We are so entrenched in our way of life that we have to have the oil companies' products. However, it seems that they are taking advantage of the situation to continually raise the prices (and their own profits). Even though there are many oil companies, they all have high gas prices. Isn't this why we have anti-trust laws?

I think all the reasons in your post should make you mad. When will the population stop depending on theses people. Its horrible :\

Originally posted by timeless test
WE are the consumers who demand oil and oil products.

i would have to disagree with you there. If by "we" you are referring to the consumer market, that is just incorrect.

The United States Department of Energy shows where the oil is going. The Energy Department’s statistics show that electric power constituted three percent of oil demand, roughly 535,000 barrels of oil per day while only 382,000 barrels, or two percent of the pie, went to commercial usage. Industrial and residential demands make up the next two pieces of the oil pie, with 25 percent and 4 percent, respectively. All of these pieces of the pie, however, do not constitute the enormous drain of oil that is used for transportation in the United States. Transportation demands for oil comprise 66 percent, a whopping 13,244,000 barrels of oil per day. It is clear that in the world of global gas-guzzlers, the United States reigns supreme.

Transportation is eating up all the oil, regardless of where the process comes into play which refines oil into gasoline. And regardless of who is doing all the driving - it's because of the car companies that we get such poor mileage and etc. Most of the cars in the US aren't even legal in the EU (due to efficiency standards)

Originally posted by nyarlathotep
Do you really believe that? Exxon/Mobil's profits have been at record numbers:

Oil giant Exxon Mobil Corp. on Thursday posted the largest annual profit by a U.S. company — $39.5 billion — even as earnings for the last quarter of 2006 declined 4 percent.

The 2006 profit topped Exxon Mobil’s own previous record of $36.13 billion set in 2005.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

I get so freakin angry every time I fill up and it is definitely at the gas companies. We are talking $40 billion in profit, not revenue, but profit. To me, that is exorbitant and unethical.

Yes, I do really believe that. Oil company profits are right around 5.9 center per dollar. The reason that the profits are so high is because the price of their base products have gone up dramatically. 5.9% of a million is a lot less than 5.9% of a billion, that's just basic math. Only taking into account the dollar amount of profits doesn't reveal the entire picture. Some profit margin comparisons for you:

Oil & Gas: 9.8%
Computer Sales: 11.5%
Chemical Sales: 13.5%
Beverage & Tobacco: 19.5%
Pharmaceuticals: 21%

[edit on 22-5-2007 by BlueTriangle]

Originally posted by scientist
i would have to disagree with you there. If by "we" you are referring to the consumer market, that is just incorrect.

And who is it who is doing all the travelling? Whose goods are being transported for consumption?

Maybe there would be more demand for more efficient vehicles if petrol cost $2.00 per litre as it does in the UK?

Originally posted by BlueTriangle

Originally posted by timeless test

The real way to cut fuel costs is to reduce the tax and duty levels on it. All you have to ask yourself then is what would I like to be taxed instead?

This is certainly a major part of the problem. Here in my home state of Pennsylvania, the taxes on every gallon of gas are 50.7 cents (state + federal). So, for my little honda civic, around $5.00 of every fill up is going to taxes. It's absolutely absurd. At current gas rates, that amounts to around a 20% tax just so that I can drive my car. Nevermind the fees we pay for plates, registration, drivers license, etc. I'm so sick and tired of the government dipping in my pockets deeper and deeper every year while I get nothing out of it.

This is why a two party system has failed. The whole government from top to bottom has failed and why it should be torn down and restructured from top to bottom.

You cant compare the cost of gas in the UK with the US. The cost of gas in the US is just greed. While the UK's can be justified to a point. A good portion of the taxes and what not on a gallon of gas in the UK go to mass trans, fuel efficient cars, research and the overall betterment of travel and the ecology. We don't have that here in the US. Well we do but no where near the scale that is being done over seas.

This brings a scripture in the book of Revelation to mind. "the merchants will be the great men of the earth and by there sorcery will all men be fooled". We see it happening with the oil and drug company's. Soon it will be cooperate nations. The US will be owned and run by Bill Gates!