Your Salvation - Inquire Within!

Its just the fact you continuously tell us to go look at the Bible to try and prove to us its real, using the fact that its from a book to justify your beliefs. It makes no sense. As if it makes it anymore true.

There are religious texts thousands of years older than the Bible, you know.

God its just this annoying arrogance that ticks me off about a lot of Christians. This is the same thought process that goes through every religion. I just don't understand how you people don't realize that.

I apologise in advance for this, I'll try to do this tactfully...

what bothers me more about this thread is that someone who is suffering with depression, a distressing psychological condition, and possibly under great strain, is feeling that only knowledge of the holy bibble can help.

Please find some proper help. A psychologist or psychiatrist is what you need. I understand you're under financial strain, but please seek whatever professional help you can.

[edit on 21-5-2007 by melatonin]

If the world population was reflected by 100 people and you have a bank account and a roof over your head, you're one of the 30 richest people in the world....

That makes people...Feel better?

Money doesn't buy happiness and neither does psychology.


The other day Christ said, little child, As I served my mother before my time had come, I desire you and no others.

Originally posted by clearwater
Money doesn't buy happiness and neither does psychology.

Yeah, money won't bring someone suffering depression out of the rut they find themselves. It might bring temporary relief through improved social conditions though.

Yet psychology and psychiatry have scientifically proven treatments, don't work for everyone, but at least they have proven efficacy, they can help lift a person out of the blackness they find themselves. If people don't like taking psychiatrist's medication, psychologist's CBT can work. He has already said he is a 'believer', so obviously faith seems to not be enough.

Depression is a condition that requires more than biblical platitudes and zealots looking to 'save' others preying on people at a low emotional ebb. It is quite shocking to see someone respond to a person who is claiming to be suffering and being hit hard by depression, with 'have you been saved', I'm actually quite amazed at this.

Then again, I know it will be hard for someone in his/her position to find suitable treatment with US healthcare...

[edit on 22-5-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by kinglizard
I absolutely love this verse: (though I do wish people could be saved by works alone)

if they can't your god allowed the best of humanity to be tortured, congratulate him for that if you see him.

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1: most cliche bible quote ever
2: nowhere does it say "whoever so does not believe in him shall perish and not have eternal life"

Originally posted by clearwater
Money doesn't buy happiness and neither does psychology.

well, money can only buy tangible things.
however, psychology does help out a hell of a lot, especially if you have an issue like depression.


[edit on 5/22/07 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
nowhere does it say "whoever so does not believe in him shall perish and not have eternal life"

Excellent question Madness!

Maybe this will help with your Bible study.

John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Originally posted by kinglizard
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

now, that can be taken so many ways

1: live by my example to get to heaven
2: be a good person, like me, to get to heaven
3: live by love (i alreadly explained the logic behind that) to get to heaven
or insanely narrow view of the bible
4: nobody goes to heaven without being a bible believin' christian

Jesus says he is the only way to the father you must go through him. This is not a narrow path, it's wide enough for the entire world if only they accept his salvation.

As the way, he is the path, as the truth he is the reality of God's promises, as the life he joins his life to ours.

Romans 10:9

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


[edit on 5/22/2007 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by kinglizard
Jesus says he is the only way to the father you must go through him.

but nowhere does jesus say what that entails. again, jesus could be saying that he's leading by example. you haven't refuted the other interpretations of that passage.

This is not a narrow path, it's wide enough for the entire world if only they accept his salvation.

but it's an insanely narrow interpretation.

As the way, he is the path, as the truth he is the reality of God's promises, as the life he joins his life to ours.

or maybe he was just some dude with some really cool things to say.

Romans 10:9

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

but that isn't jesus talking, is it? it seems to me that jesus really never established any doctrine.

I've given you enough scripture, I'll not provide any more for you to pervert.

I hope, as you suggest, you find salvation provided by Jesus through your works. I would love to see you live your life as Jesus taught.

Originally posted by kinglizard
I've given you enough scripture, I'll not provide any more for you to pervert.

now you're accusing me of perverting scripture?
it's called INTERPRETING. your interpretation is no more of a perversion of scripture than mine because we don't have the original authors there to tell us EXACTLY what they meant. just look at the bible and you'll see parables (quite a few from jesus), allegories (much of the old testament), and metaphors everywhere (particularly revelations).

I hope, as you suggest, you find salvation provided by Jesus through your works.

i really don't care. if i get only one life i'll be happy. i could die tomorrow and i'd die happy and i haven't even had two decades on this planet. if i ended up in hell, i really wouldn't care. if your god sees fit that i'm in hell, along with gandhi and einstein (who are in there if your interpretation is right), i'll be perfectly happy.

I would love to see you live your life as Jesus taught.

well, i'll live life by some of it... a few things the man taught are outdated, but you can't blame him for being in the zeitgeist.

It really is funny when you consider these 'faiths' underpin our Nations. Who decided to indoctrinate it into society? The Constitution, the Judiary...God is incorporated into just about every facet of society.

I don't think you can pin it on the individual, The God concept is well entrenched in society. If you claim the individual is delusional then perhaps you need to extend that to the society in which we live.

There is a man I see regularly driving around and he has a bus and it has Christian messages all over it. Now, this man is the most gentle humble person I think I have ever met. Do we say he is delusional? Write him off as a nutter? I really hope not. He is on the street 24/7 going into some of the areas in soce nobody else besides the police go. Why? Just to convert? or to help people?

I have met too many people whose lives were going down the drain, whether that be drugs or violence. And, due to a random act of kindness or some guidance, these people now lead healthy lives. I am not talking about good jobs or money, but they are emotionally happy and not self destructive and surely that is a better place to be? They don't even go to church...but someone's faith had a positive effect. Those people did not have a bible rammed down their throats and nor was the assistance conditional

Due to the huge wealth divisions in soce, much charity and assistance is left to various religious denominations. For eg, the Christian Mission or CentreCare offer or generally are the first stop for homeless people, people experiencing crisis, drug addicts etc. All of these people are vulnerable and the very State they live in, fails to assist them. Who takes over? The various religious denominations. Thats who. People rely on the Bible in contemporary times, I feel try to take the higher road in personal development and for that reason alone, isn't such a bad thing.

If you look around in your community, the majority of community based groups subscribe to a faith of some sort and believe in charity. There are hypocrits and judgemental people in any facet of soce, that does not just apply to religious denominations. The majority are just doing their bit to promote goodwill not by preaching but by their actions. Another eg, a little old lady made sandwiches and tea for everyone for free when we had bushfire crisis. She was the first one there. Why? Because she is good natured? Yes perhaps, but she is also a member of the WCA. So, another one we right off as delusional? I hope not. What would the world be like if there weren't people like that around with those beliefs and ideals?

Those that attack people's faith, I feel are missing the point.





[edit on 24-5-2007 by NJE777]

Originally posted by NJE777
It really is funny when you consider these 'faiths' underpin our Nations. Who decided to indoctrinate it into society? The Constitution, the Judiary...God is incorporated into just about every facet of society.

god isn't in the constitution.
maybe the declaration of independence... but that isn't a legal document.

I don't think you can pin it on the individual, The God concept is well entrenched in society. If you claim the individual is delusional then perhaps you need to extend that to the society in which we live.

obviously, the society needs to progress, just like it did with regard to other things

There is a man I see regularly driving around and he has a bus and it has Christian messages all over it. Now, this man is the most gentle humble person I think I have ever met. Do we say he is delusional? Write him off as a nutter?

being delusional and being insane are two different things. delusions are false beliefs or opinions

I really hope not. He is on the street 24/7 going into some of the areas in soce nobody else besides the police go. Why? Just to convert? or to help people?

he may think he's helping people.

I have met too many people whose lives were going down the drain, whether that be drugs or violence. And, due to a random act of kindness or some guidance, these people now lead healthy lives. I am not talking about good jobs or money, but they are emotionally happy and not self destructive and surely that is a better place to be? They don't even go to church...but someone's faith had a positive effect. Those people did not have a bible rammed down their throats and nor was the assistance conditional

again, just because religion is helpful doesn't mean it's true. religion can be a crutch or an opiate. both of which help, but they aren't always needed.

Due to the huge wealth divisions in soce, much charity and assistance is left to various religious denominations. For eg, the Christian Mission or CentreCare offer or generally are the first stop for homeless people, people experiencing crisis, drug addicts etc. All of these people are vulnerable and the very State they live in, fails to assist them. Who takes over? The various religious denominations. Thats who. People rely on the Bible in contemporary times, I feel try to take the higher road in personal development and for that reason alone, isn't such a bad thing.

really? what about the secular charities? like unicef, united way, doctors without borders, and all the others. they do good things too, and merely out of the goodness of their heart.

it's like the old "atheists don't build hospitals" myth.

If you look around in your community, the majority of community based groups subscribe to a faith of some sort and believe in charity.

for the wrong reasons....
and it's only because these groups have the money to do so.

There are hypocrits and judgemental people in any facet of soce, that does not just apply to religious denominations. The majority are just doing their bit to promote goodwill not by preaching but by their actions. Another eg, a little old lady made sandwiches and tea for everyone for free when we had bushfire crisis. She was the first one there. Why? Because she is good natured? Yes perhaps, but she is also a member of the WCA. So, another one we right off as delusional? I hope not. What would the world be like if there weren't people like that around with those beliefs and ideals?

again, just because someone does good things doesn't mean their beliefs are right.

Those that attack people's faith, I feel are missing the point.

listen, let's take an example: mother teresa. she won the nobel peace prize... but what did she do? she gave hospice care, a very noble act. but what did she do when she got a global stage to voice her opinions? give speechs on archaic views of birth control. talking about how condoms are bad, in a nation that has a massive AIDS problem.

just because people do some good things, doesn't mean that their religious views should get a pass. we need REASON and LOGIC in this world, not faith and superstition. we need people doing good things because it's the right thing to do, not because religion tells them to.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
obviously, the society needs to progress, just like it did with regard to other things

Yes, to a point but, why is everyone so quick to shoot the messenger? Are you critical of all faiths or just Christianity?

being delusional and being insane are two different things. delusions are false beliefs or opinions

Fine line...very fine line.

he may think he's helping people.

Exactly and I believe the 'intent' to help doesn't warrant crucifiction just because the intent relies upon a faith.

again, just because religion is helpful doesn't mean it's true. religion can be a crutch or an opiate. both of which help, but they aren't always needed.

You mentioned above society needed to develop... any suggestions on how to do that without religion or faith? All cultures have their own faith, from the Jews to Indigenous groups and the faith provides a foundation.

really? what about the secular charities? like unicef, united way, doctors without borders, and all the others. they do good things too, and merely out of the goodness of their heart.

I am not disputing secular charities, it is a fair point you make but you criticised this thread, Christianity/Religion. So why now, do you defend the secular movement? Who put who on the defensive? As far as I can see, no one criticised the secular faith here but you on the other hand have come running in and are forcing your opinion onto others. If I want to believe in God then I will. If you don't believe in it, then whatever...go on your way and start a thread stating what you believe. No one forced you to come in here. Why do I as an Essene have to justify my faith to anyone?

I responded to the incursion in the attempt to find 'middle ground' but just stop for a minute and look at your contribution here. Was it really necessary for you to bash this thread?

it's like the old "atheists don't build hospitals" myth.

What a load of crock! I haven't heard of this. What is your problem? Do you feel as a atheist you are having a rough time?

For the wrong reasons....
and it's only because these groups have the money to do so.

What??? So your stating that all religious denominations providing charity are doing so for the wrong reasons . That is very offensive. A shameful generalisation.

just because someone does good things doesn't mean their beliefs are right.

And it doesnt mean that your view is right either.

we need REASON and LOGIC in this world

Yes, absolutely! Read my response again...I attempted to provide logic and reasoning and you criticised it, but I suppose thats because my logic and reasoning is accepting of faith and your logic and reasoning isn't...you consider faith = superstition?

not faith and superstition.

Originally posted by NJE777
Yes, to a point but, why is everyone so quick to shoot the messenger? Are you critical of all faiths or just Christianity?

i'm against all faiths... except buddhism, i'm apathetic towards them for now.

Exactly and I believe the 'intent' to help doesn't warrant crucifiction just because the intent relies upon a faith.

his intent is to help, but his actions may not be helping anyone. if he's going around to "spread the faith" he's not necessarily helping anyone.

You mentioned above society needed to develop... any suggestions on how to do that without religion or faith?

logic, reason, philosophy, science

All cultures have their own faith, from the Jews to Indigenous groups and the faith provides a foundation.

of course, it provides a foundation for inclusive communities

I am not disputing secular charities, it is a fair point you make but you criticised this thread, Christianity/Religion.

actually, in this thread i simply criticized KL's view of scripture and salvation messages WITHIN christianity.

So why now, do you defend the secular movement? Who put who on the defensive?

i'm not on the defensive, i'm just pointing out that you overlooked something.

As far as I can see, no one criticised the secular faith here

oxymoron.

but you on the other hand have come running in and are forcing your opinion onto others.

again, i've been criticizing within the confines of christianity.

[quote[
If I want to believe in God then I will. If you don't believe in it, then whatever...go on your way and start a thread stating what you believe.


once more, in this thread i have yet to criticize the god hypothesis, just KL's take on it.

No one forced you to come in here. Why do I as an Essene have to justify my faith to anyone?

you're seeing an attack on one narrow view of scripture as an attack on christianity

I responded to the incursion in the attempt to find 'middle ground' but just stop for a minute and look at your contribution here. Was it really necessary for you to bash this thread?

yes, because KL is a religious extremist who is propogating a message within his own religion that is equivalent to that of islamic fundamentalists. i'm trying to voice a more moderate interpretation of scripture.

What a load of crock! I haven't heard of this. What is your problem? Do you feel as a atheist you are having a rough time?

actually, yes i do. atheists are the most hated group in america at the moment. hell, a recent gallup poll showed that only 47% of americans would vote for an atheist.

What??? So your stating that all religious denominations providing charity are doing so for the wrong reasons . That is very offensive. A shameful generalisation.

i'm not saying that all of them do it for the wrong reasons, but most do. religion preys on fear of punishment. it tells you to do good things because you are commanded to.

And it doesnt mean that your view is right either.

my view may not be right, but i do have that whole "evidence" thing on my side.

[quote[
Yes, absolutely! Read my response again...I attempted to provide logic and reasoning and you criticised it, but I suppose thats because my logic and reasoning is accepting of faith and your logic and reasoning isn't...you consider faith = superstition?


yes, and to quote my favorite biologist.

"Faith is an evil precisely because it requires no justification and brooks no argument."

-Richard Dawkins.

faith is superstition. it has no logic behind it.

but anyway, i never attacked the concept of christianity at all in this thread. i merely attacked one interpretation of scripture that was being voiced. i argued within the premise of this thread.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i'm against all faiths... except buddhism, i'm apathetic towards them for now.

hmm well, Essene beliefs closely resemble Buddhism. Either way, I am not intolerant of others beliefs.

logic, reason, philosophy, science

Great! science -> psuedo science.

oxymoron.

thank you for the insult.

KL is a religious extremist who is propogating a message within his own religion that is equivalent to that of islamic fundamentalists. i'm trying to voice a more moderate interpretation of scripture.

An extremist?

actually, yes i do. atheists are the most hated group in america at the moment. hell, a recent gallup poll showed that only 47% of americans would vote for an atheist.

47%... that is nearly 50%
Thats a lot of Americans...
'Most hated group in America'? hmm that would be assuming rather a lot. You have a chip on your shoulder...


I wont debate this any further, it is going off topic, feel free to u2u me or start another thread on Athiests, the most hated group in America...

furthermore:

so if 63% of this country wouldn't vote for a president based on their skin color it would be ok because it's nearly 50%
it's shown through statistics, every time there's a question "do you trust X group" the atheist group gets the least trust. and it's really unfair, we tend to be just as good or bad as the rest of the population.

You can't change the median to suit your agenda.


cheers







[edit on 25-5-2007 by NJE777]

[edit on 25-5-2007 by NJE777]

KL, I read your post, not sure exactly what you want?

Confession?


ok I'm not catholic but lets run with it.


I've done A LOT of bad things.


so when shall I hear the voices?

Salvation? From what and whom, and why?
Judgement Day?

Honest question bro, are you wanting to see the Judgment Day in your life?


I kinda agree with this lyric;


First.. there was the collapse of civilization
Anarchy, genocide, starvation
Then.. when it seemed like # couldn't get any more #ed up
We got The Plague
The Living Death
Closing his icy grip around the whole planet
Then the rumors started
The last hardcore MC's.. were working on a cure
.. that would END the pestilence.. why?
I like the death
I *LIKE* the misery
I LIKE THIS WORLD!!!!!

Originally posted by NJE777
thank you for the insult.

haha, oxymoron isn't an insult, it's a term for the combining of two contradictory terms. SECULAR FAITH, they are contradictory terms

An extremist?

yep, the evidence is in how he called my interpretations of the christian scripture PERVERSIONS.

47%... that is nearly 50%
Thats a lot of Americans...
'Most hated group in America'? hmm that would be assuming rather a lot.

so if 63% of this country wouldn't vote for a president based on their skin color it would be ok because it's nearly 50%
it's shown through statistics, every time there's a question "do you trust X group" the atheist group gets the least trust. and it's really unfair, we tend to be just as good or bad as the rest of the population.

You have a chip on your shoulder...

no, i just see crap as crap. i see discrimination when it happens.

kinglizard, excellent thread. Jesus saved me from insanity in graduate school.

God Bless!!!

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
John 4:7-8

see, salvation isn't necessarily through jesus, it can also be through love.
so, even a lowly atheist like me who does not believe in god knows god because i love.

For you render to each one according to his works.
Psalm 62:12

now, that psalm tells me that god judges each of us according to our works....

I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Jeremiah 17:10

jeremiah backs that up too....

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Matthew 16.27

matthew backs up salvation through works as well...

The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.
1 Peter 1:17

alright, so there you have it. i give you 5 passages from the bible that prove salvation through works.

see, you don't have to accept jesus, just be a good person.