prayer is sloth

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
first of all, i know he doesn't. the templeton foundation (that religious group) did a study to see if prayer positively affected the outcome of heart surgery. they took a sample of identical heart surgeries, had people pray for 1/3 with knowledge that they were being prayed for, 1/3 didn't know they were being prayed for, and 1/3 were left without prayers. they had entire CONGREGATIONS praying for these people but the results showed that those who were prayed for... suffered more complications....
oops.

I checked the link for the Templeton Foundation, that page shows nothing to back up your claim of the study of prayer on the heart surgeries. At least I couldn't find it.


Besides, because a group of people didn't get help from prayer in a "scientific" study, this proves your arguement?

I think it proves otherwise, that this "study" tempted God, and therefore he ignored the study as a whole, to teach us a lesson.







[edit on 22-5-2007 by elevatedone]

[edit on 22-5-2007 by elevatedone]

If there was a god and he wanted people to believe in him, why would he ignore a study to prove otherwise? "Teach us a lesson"? What lesson? That there isn't a god?

Seriously, this makes no sense at all, it's just verbal tapdancing.

I'll give the faithful that much, that no matter how many times logic is offered, they turn away from it and adhere to something that has no proof except in their minds. I guess there's something to be said to blindly following that which makes no rational sense. Otherwise I suppose the faithful wouldn't be able to take it seriously at all.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
If there was a god and he wanted people to believe in him, why would he ignore a study to prove otherwise? "Teach us a lesson"? What lesson? That there isn't a god?

Seriously, this makes no sense at all, it's just verbal tapdancing.

I'll give the faithful that much, that no matter how many times logic is offered, they turn away from it and adhere to something that has no proof except in their minds. I guess there's something to be said to blindly following that which makes no rational sense. Otherwise I suppose the faithful wouldn't be able to take it seriously at all.

God says "do not put me to the test" it's as simple as that.
Proof, proof, proof, thats all everyone seems to want here. God will give you as much proof as you want. You just have to ask him to forgive you your sins. Have a little faith, then ask him into your life.
God won't give you proof otherwise, why, because if he gave the world proof right now what would happen. Everyone would pile into all the churches asking how to be saved to save thier own arses. That is not what God wants. He wants us to come to him through faith and love. he wants a relationship with us.
Now there is some logic, are you going to turn away from that and say. Well that's very convenient. (I know madness will)

Yup, I'm going to turn away from self-perpetuating circular logic.

There's always an answer that evades when the question is asked, where is the proof of god? Hypothetically, he used to give miracles and prove himself. So why stop? Because he doesn't exist.

And no amount of circular reasoning and "he doesn't want to be tested" will convince me otherwise. God is not logical. I am a logical being. Ergo, for me, god does not exist.

I do really congratulate all the theists for clinging so hard to their faith in the light of reason. I know I couldn't do it. I can't believe in something for which there is no proof. The bible is not proof. The world is not proof. There is only belief, which likewise proves nothing.

I know that there are people who believe in Bat Boy because he was in the Weekly World News. Doesn't mean Bat Boy exists. And he has more "proof" than god: they have a photo of him.

There's always an answer that evades when the question is asked, where is the proof of god? Hypothetically, he used to give miracles and prove himself. So why stop? Because he doesn't exist.


Now that really does show how little you know about God. Do you ever wonder why theologens and people with great knowlage don't come to ATS. It's because of statements like that. Miracles happen all the time around the world. I have prayed for and seen God do miracles, so have thousands of other christians. its common occurance on a global scale.
You see, It is a whole different world when you have a relationship with God. You live in your own little world full of logic and science. Guess what, God is supernatural, what he does is supernatural and what we do and see as christians is supernatural. If you want logic and science you have picked the wrong subject to try and get your head around. Try UFO's or something, lots of science there.
jon

There is no god. Or there would be proof of god. Your saying there is, is just your opinion and it's an illogical one at that. There is a phenomenon known as mass hysteria, which covers a lot of the "miracles" you speak of.

Why is there no scientific proof for these "miracles?" Why has not one neutral, unbiased party got video or photographic proof of these "miracles?"

Because they don't exist.

Your theologians and "great thinkers" don't come to places like this because they can't argue against reason in a rational manner and they know they're already defeated.

Your "faith" is not proof. "Faith" is believing in something for which there is no proof. It's as nonsensical to me as believing in a rabbit that delivers chocolate eggs once a year, or the Great Pumpkin.

In fact, the Easter Bunny has more "proof" than your god does. At least he delivers the chocolate once a year. Any "proof" of god lies in self-delusion and interpreting the facts to support the unsupportable.

Even Thomas got to put his hand in Jesus' wound to prove to himself that Jesus existed -- in the legend that is. So where's your proof?

Citing the Bible does not apply. I'd like something other than a manual for survival in a desert in primitive conditions.

As Lewis Black said in his show, Red, White and Screwed, I'd like to have faith. But I have thoughts. And they keep getting in the way.

Faith is not rational. It is not provable empirically. If you want me to believe in your god so much, then give me some real concrete evidence that doesn't stem from an indoctrination manual or the hysteria of the masses or just because someone "said so."

Until such a day, I am in awe of the ability of some to believe in something that there is absolutely no proof for whatsoever. I commend you for your dogged adherence to what I perceive as an ancient fairy tale.

Majormalfunction. you are not understanding what I am saying are you. I don't know how to make it easier for you. I stated in my last post that I have prayed for and seen miracles, you then come back with mass hysteria nonsence. I really was looking forward to sharing a few stories on this thread about these things, to give you an insight, so to speak. You obviously think that I am some kind of jerk though that is not telling the truth. With that sort of attitude I am afraid you are allways going to be in the dark.
I am going to sign off this thread now, But I wish you all the best and hope you get the answers you are looking for someday.
Cheers
John.

Originally posted by elevatedone
I checked the link for the Templeton Foundation, that page shows nothing to back up your claim of the study of prayer on the heart surgeries. At least I couldn't find it.

well, i never said the study was there, the link was just for background on the group.

Besides, because a group of people didn't get help from prayer in a "scientific" study, this proves your arguement?

why must you put quotes around it? it was scientific.
my argument is that there would be evidence of the power of prayer if it was real.

I think it proves otherwise, that this "study" tempted God, and therefore he ignored the study as a whole, to teach us a lesson.

convenient... way too convenient.

Originally posted by jon1
God says "do not put me to the test" it's as simple as that.

again, WAY too convenient

Proof, proof, proof, thats all everyone seems to want here. God will give you as much proof as you want. You just have to ask him to forgive you your sins. Have a little faith, then ask him into your life.

so to get proof you must already accept everything god says... that's some backwards logic.

he wants a relationship with us.
Now there is some logic, are you going to turn away from that and say. Well that's very convenient. (I know madness will)

no, i'm going to say it's not logic

only that whole "no testing god" thing is way too convenient

Originally posted by jon1
Now that really does show how little you know about God. Do you ever wonder why theologens and people with great knowlage don't come to ATS.

because it's a fairly small conspiracy site...

Miracles happen all the time around the world. I have prayed for and seen God do miracles, so have thousands of other christians. its common occurance on a global scale.

and yet there is zero evidence to back that claim up

You see, It is a whole different world when you have a relationship with God.

are there unicorns in this world of yours?

You live in your own little world full of logic and science. Guess what, God is supernatural, what he does is supernatural and what we do and see as christians is supernatural

little world? the universe is a hell of a big place....
so are you saying only christians can see miracles happening?

If you want logic and science you have picked the wrong subject to try and get your head around.

oh, the old "you can't understand this" argument.

Originally posted by jon1
I stated in my last post that I have prayed for and seen miracles, you then come back with mass hysteria nonsence.

personal experience isn't evidence. you can't prove that you've seen miracles.

Here's the abstract for the Templeton-funded prayer study:

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: A multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer

Herbert Benson, MDal, Jeffery A. Dusek, PhDal, Jane B. Sherwood, RNm, Peter Lam, PhDm, Charles F. Bethea, MDb, William Carpenter, MDivc, Sidney Levitsky, MDd, Peter C. Hill, MDe, Donald W. Clem Jr., MAf, Manoj K. Jain, MD, MPHg, David Drumel, MDivgh, Stephen L. Kopecky, MDi, Paul S. Mueller, MDj, Dean Marekk, Sue Rollins, RN, MPHb, Patricia L. Hibberd, MD, PhDlm

Received 5 January 2005; accepted 6 May 2005

Abstract

Background
Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.

Methods
Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.

Results
In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.

Conclusions
Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

www.ahjonline.com...



[edit on 22-5-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by jon1
You obviously think that I am some kind of jerk though that is not telling the truth.

No, I don't think you're a jerk. I think you and other theists believe in something that there is no real evidence of, and so I debate. I try to understand how people can believe in something that has no tangible reality.

If my debate offends you, I'm sorry. But I also don't think you should infer things I do not intend, such as thinking you are a jerk.

Instead of saying you and millions of others around the world have seen miracles, which is not a provable or scientific statement, you could explain what you believe to have seen that convinced you that miracles happen.

I may still not believe that your interpretation of what you have witnessed proves god exists, but at least there would be a ground for discussion instead of a blanket statement that ultimately means nothing.

Lets talk evidence.
I am a photographer, whoops, here is the evidence. johnwatts.webeden.co.uk...
Because of this I am not bad at using things like photoshop so what evidence would you like, that pigs can fly, no problem. How about my last camping holiday, ON THE MOON.
Sometimes even the best evidence nowdays isn't what it seems to be and the only way you and Madness are going to get any is to go out and do some research of your own. If you see with your own eyes These miracles of healing. Would you honestly believe it? Probbley not, it will be a setup or some sort of illusion. After all, God doesn't exist, right.
I think that you two are to set in your beliefes now to take any type of evidence into consideration. If you put God into the same realm as pixies and the tooth fairy I think that you have already made up your minds on this subject. This evidence problem has been done to death here on ATS and the only option for anyone is to whitness the events. I will leave that up to you to sort out because I know that it is far easier to sit at your computers and mock God and his believers than to go out there and really find out for yourselves what others believe in.
Do you see why this thread is a bit pointless now. You require evidence. but the only real evidence will come by seeing with your own eyes.
Nuff said
john

Madness, yes I know you have looked for evidence before but did you look in the right places. how often did you go to church and speak to the ministers there. Have you done any christian courses at all?
where there is a will there is a way and if you truly want to find out about God, you can. Then it's up to you to do with the evidence what you will. And you will find some if you look hard enough.

[edit on 23-5-2007 by jon1]

Jon, you're assuming that madness and I haven't done any searching, or gone to church or taken bible classes. We have.

I fail to understand how questioning your belief system is mockery. People question our nonbelief constantly and we aren't yelling "we are being mocked!"

Digital images can be photoshopped, yes. But the manipulation will show up in the digital record of the image.

If, and that's a big IF, someone has experienced spontaneous healing of something or other during a prayer session, it could just as easily be coincidence or the power of suggestion as the interference of some supernatural entity. I'll go one further: coincidence and the power of suggestion make more rational sense.

How many of these "healed" people are tracked later on to ascertain whether their "healing" was temporary or remained permanent? Self-hypnosis in a trance state (which is reached during religious ecstasy) can make someone appear to be "healed" when in fact, they get home and a day or two later (or even hours later) their symptoms come right back.

It's an old con, and I'm not falling for it.

If there was a god, then it gave us the ability to heal ourselves -- it's known as medical science. That's where the healing comes from. Where are the people who had cancer and have suddenly been "healed" of it by prayer? Not anecdotal evidence, but real concrete evidence of this should be easy to come by. The patient's medical records before a healing, during the period they supposedly were healed by prayer, and after the fact showing complete remission would go a long way towards proving this rather unbelievable claim.

Majormalfunction.
I will tell you about my wife, She used to suffer great pain in her back and occasionally in her neck. we did all the usual doctor and specialists visits and in the end she was diagnosed with a degenerative disease in her back and it was slowly spreading to her neck. They said that there was nothing they could do and gave her some very strong painkillers. Shortly afterwards she had to use a wheelchair to go shopping or anywhere other than 20 or so paces. She also had to sell her motorbike because she could not turn her head around to check for traffic. Her back also used to go into spasm in the most awkward places like in a restaurant once whilst on the loo. She was carried out on a streacher and again when we were in church and once whilst driving our car, we even had the fire service out to that one to cut out the drivers seat.
Now we come on to the God bit.
Once whilst in church she had a spasm so I laid my hand on her back and asked God to take away the pain and suffering. (this was a quiet prayer) and instantly the pain went away. Then she once shouted out to me when she was upstairs and I knew what the problem was before I got there. Once in the bedroom I just felt totally helpless whilst she screemed out in pain. I said what can I do, She said "you can try praying" so once again I laid hands on her back and asked Jesus to take away the pain and suffering. She instantly fell over onto the floor and I thought, "oh no, this is going from bad to worse". then when I looked down she was lay there with a smile on her face.
She then started to have regular prayers for healing for her back. This wasn't instant healing but over 4 months she got better and finally sent her wheelchair back.
Now for the good bit. During these times of prayer we went to a local church and they were doing prayer for healing that night and my wife went to the front with about four others. hands were laid on her by the vicars wife. She prayed for healing for her neck and afterwards she came and sat down. She then passed out for about three mins and people were getting concerned. I said don't worry, I think she is getting healing. When she came to she stood up and could move her head around like anyone else. she recieved 100% healing that night.
This was all around five years ago now and she is still perfectly healthy.
Now this is just one event but I told you this one because I have been there before, during and after the healing.
There are many more instances of healing and hearing from God and telling people things that they know that I know nothing about.
This is what I refer to when I say that my faith is not blind. I have seen with my own eyes God in action.
This is why I will not sway when it comes to my faith. I have my own proof that God exists. Do you have your own proof that he doesn't?
NOW, Am I a total nut job or do you believe what I am telling you. this is the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
John.


[edit on 23-5-2007 by jon1]

Originally posted by jon1
Madness, yes I know you have looked for evidence before but did you look in the right places. how often did you go to church and speak to the ministers there.

i went to at least 2 different christian churches every week, i tried to vary the denominations as much as i could as well as visiting non-denominational churches.

Have you done any christian courses at all?

2 years of theology, 10 years of sunday school

where there is a will there is a way and if you truly want to find out about God, you can.

well, i truely did, i had the will, and i found nothing.

Originally posted by jon1
This is what I refer to when I say that my faith is not blind. I have seen with my own eyes God in action.

no, you have seen something that you cannot explain and have attributed it to god.

This is why I will not sway when it comes to my faith. I have my own proof that God exists.

that's inherently contradictory, "[your] own proof.." isn't how it goes, proof is something that's ABSOLUTE and OBJECTIVE.

Do you have your own proof that he doesn't?

it's not on us to disprove a HYPOTHESIS

NOW, Am I a total nut job or do you believe what I am telling you.

i don't believe you're a nutjob. i think you're most likely a mentally stable individual that sincerely believes what he's saying, i just think you're wrong.

this is the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

but it's a truth based on subjective experience.

[edit on 5/23/07 by madnessinmysoul]

That is a nice story, Jon, but I'm afraid it doesn't prove the existence of god, just that something happened that you have no other explanation for. I'm very glad that your wife is better, though, no matter what agency caused her healing: her faith in a god giving HER the ability to heal herself (placebo effect) or something we don't yet understand such as telekinesis, or something other.

The way the debate works, though, the burden of proof is on the side who is claiming something exists, not the side that doesn't believe. That's why madness and I keep insisting people prove their god --it's not up to us to disprove it.

But thank you very much for sharing your story. It is far superior discussion to me than saying simply "I and millions of others have seen miracles." It had substance, and -- being serious here, not mocking -- was far better than just saying miracles happen. You believe something happened. Something probably did happen. But saying it was god does not convince me it WAS god. It could have been a lot of things.

However, I am going to state that even if I see no rational evidence of a god or gods existing, I do believe that peoples' faith in him is very powerful. Powerful enough to cure by power of suggestion alone.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
...but I'm afraid it doesn't prove the existence of god, just that something happened that you have no other explanation for.

I believe I asked this of you before but what would you accept as proof of God?

DNA? - Jesus, I'm sure, had DNA but what would you compare it to to, how would that be proof?

NDE? - i had a NDE (near death experience) and stood before God just outside of heaven....but even this wouldn't be proof enough for the faithless.

The real answer is that there is NOTHING we can provide the faithless that they would accept as proof of a God.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
That is a nice story, Jon, but I'm afraid it doesn't prove the existence of god, just that something happened that you have no other explanation for. I'm very glad that your wife is better, though, no matter what agency caused her healing: her faith in a god giving HER the ability to heal herself (placebo effect) or something we don't yet understand such as telekinesis, or something other.

The way the debate works, though, the burden of proof is on the side who is claiming something exists, not the side that doesn't believe. That's why madness and I keep insisting people prove their god --it's not up to us to disprove it.

But thank you very much for sharing your story. It is far superior discussion to me than saying simply "I and millions of others have seen miracles." It had substance, and -- being serious here, not mocking -- was far better than just saying miracles happen. You believe something happened. Something probably did happen. But saying it was god does not convince me it WAS god. It could have been a lot of things.

However, I am going to state that even if I see no rational evidence of a god or gods existing, I do believe that peoples' faith in him is very powerful. Powerful enough to cure by power of suggestion alone.

well thanks for at least believing that I am telling you the truth.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the Subject of God. The debate was going on before we were born and I think it will be going on long after we are dead.
Cheers
John.

Originally posted by jon1

well thanks for at least believing that I am telling you the truth.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the Subject of God. The debate was going on before we were born and I think it will be going on long after we are dead.
Cheers
John.

Excellent, I agree to disagree.

Look, mojo! We're having a civilized discourse! (not capping on you Jon, it's in answer to one of mojo's threads elsewhere)

Ah ha just caught you in the act, please take it to my thread were we all behave nicely.

Originally posted by kinglizard
I believe I asked this of you before but what would you accept as proof of God?

i do not know specifically, but i can give it to you in general terms.
first, it would have to be proven to somehow be supernatural
secondly, you'd have to prove it was the judeo-christian god

DNA? - Jesus, I'm sure, had DNA but what would you compare it to to, how would that be proof?

well, if you could compare it to his mother and father's DNA.... it might prove something,

NDE? - i had a NDE (near death experience) and stood before God just outside of heaven....but even this wouldn't be proof enough for the faithless.

because people in the middle east have NDEs in which they are greeted by the prophet, people in india have NDEs where they see their religion, and so on

The real answer is that there is NOTHING we can provide the faithless that they would accept as proof of a God.

and that shows that there is NOTHING that can prove the existence of your god (or any god, goddess, or spirit for that matter)