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prayer is sloth

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posted on May, 20 2007 @ 01:02 AM
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first let me define sloth



1. habitual disinclination to exertion; indolence; laziness.


now let's look at prayer. prayer is spending an inordinate amount of time, typically on your knees, asking for the intervention of some sort of divine being, in modern society that would most likely be the omnipotent abrahamic deity.

instead of exerting yourself in an attempt to rectify the problem, you just keep asking for an all powerful being to solve your problem for you.

habitual prayer = sloth

now, those of faith who pray, how do you take this?

[edit on 5/20/07 by madnessinmysoul]



posted on May, 20 2007 @ 01:13 AM
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Well, hello Madness!

I do not prostrate myself and pray on my knees. In fact, I feel that I have an open dialog with the Father whereby my thoughts are his and his are mine. So when I think about something, I actually am testing/running it through the Father to see if it has value or not. That, to me is prayer...constant communication with Father.

Now, as far as praying goes though if you must speak words aloud to God, Jesus was explicit about praying this way and recited the only truthful prayer called the Lords prayer. It is essential a call to end all the worlds problems and bring Heaven on Earth.

I agree with the Lord's Prayer. To pray for just one thing, like saving a persons life or ending hunger is short-sighted. Unless everything is rectified, including death, then solving little problems here and there through divine intervention doesn't mean much. God desires to intervene wholly and make the Earth a utopia.

[edit on 20-5-2007 by ben91069]



posted on May, 20 2007 @ 12:58 PM
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so ben, you're praying for the ultimate deus ex machina moment in earth's history? that seems by far even more lazy. "god, come down and solve ALL the earth's problems," don't you think some omnipotent being that can create a whole universe would have greater things on its plate than this one little mud-ball?



posted on May, 20 2007 @ 01:37 PM
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It is also said to pray silently or off where it is just you and Him. Madness, it does seem a little lazy but, if God tells Ben, pray for everything in the world as simply as possible, Ben being a believer would do it. God is not going to ask that persay but, He may put on your heart to pray for a group of people, a city, or a goverment. Some cases it is all at once. Thats where the Lords prayer comes in. In my opinion. But you have to remember Madness, with how we believe God can multitask better than anyone.

God bless



posted on May, 20 2007 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
first let me define sloth



1. habitual disinclination to exertion; indolence; laziness.


now let's look at prayer. prayer is spending an inordinate amount of time, typically on your knees, asking for the intervention of some sort of divine being, in modern society that would most likely be the omnipotent abrahamic deity.

instead of exerting yourself in an attempt to rectify the problem, you just keep asking for an all powerful being to solve your problem for you.

habitual prayer = sloth

now, those of faith who pray, how do you take this?

[edit on 5/20/07 by madnessinmysoul]


Hello again Madness. Still not been converted then.
Prayer. I don't see myself as being lazy because most of the prayers that I do are not for me but for other people. for situations that people are in that are beyond my control. That's the good thing about being a christian, we have God to help in situations where none beleivers come to the end of the road.
Cheers
John



posted on May, 20 2007 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by jon1
Prayer. I don't see myself as being lazy because most of the prayers that I do are not for me but for other people.


well, it doesn't matter who it's for.



for situations that people are in that are beyond my control.


really? is anything really beyond our control if we put our minds to it?



That's the good thing about being a christian, we have God to help in situations where none beleivers come to the end of the road.


that's the thing, we don't need that crutch. there is no situation where i would need an all powerful being to go out of its way to help me



posted on May, 20 2007 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
instead of exerting yourself in an attempt to rectify the problem, you just keep asking for an all powerful being to solve your problem for you.
...now, those of faith who pray, how do you take this?


You shouldn't pray for favors from God or material things, so your argument is obsolete. Not that I'm saying people don't pray for favors and money, rather I am saying that nowhere in the gospels or bible is this endorsed.



posted on May, 20 2007 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
You shouldn't pray for favors from God or material things, so your argument is obsolete.


no, my point is still here. praying for... let's say world peace. that's something that isn't material or a personal favor, but it's still lazy. you could go and work for world peace instead... but people don't because it's hard and thankless work.

then there are prayer vigils to end the death penalty, when instead you could write letters and push for legislation. but no, it's thankless work.

praying for strength? instead of giving yourself a kick in the butt to get yourself going you're asking for the intervention of an ALL POWERFUL BEING to give you that kick. that's not just lazy, that's arrogant.



posted on May, 20 2007 @ 07:51 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
no, my point is still here. praying for... let's say world peace. that's something that isn't material or a personal favor, but it's still lazy. you could go and work for world peace instead... but people don't because it's hard and thankless work.

then there are prayer vigils to end the death penalty, when instead you could write letters and push for legislation. but no, it's thankless work.

praying for strength? instead of giving yourself a kick in the butt to get yourself going you're asking for the intervention of an ALL POWERFUL BEING to give you that kick. that's not just lazy, that's arrogant.


What if many people who pray also take action madness? You see not everything is possible to do if it is dependent on outside circumstances. What I mean is that take world peace for example. If you work towards it and pray for it, yet the rest of the world wants to fight, then how is it possibly solvable by you? It is out of your power, thus is why people ask for divine intervention.

Also, what about the things that are impossible, like bringing back a dead child? With man, this is impossible, with God it will be possible at the end of time.

Most people who pray simply put more hope in God than humans or the world.



posted on May, 20 2007 @ 09:15 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
... let's say world peace. that's something that isn't material or a personal favor, but it's still lazy. you could go and work for world peace instead... but people don't because it's hard and thankless work.

Well, let's look at some examples of Christians(people who pray) simultaneously working for world peace. How about the Christian Children's Fund? Do they not create peace throughout 3rd world countries by donating money for education, medical aid, and food for children? *Click* Now I hardly think that's "thankless work."


then there are prayer vigils to end the death penalty, when instead you could write letters and push for legislation. but no, it's thankless work.

If there was no physical action taken to abolish the death penalty, then how did you hear about all of the controversy surrounding it? Pope John Paul II, a man who obviously prays, has voiced his opinion and has written an encyclical about capital punishment. Its a very good read: Evangelium Vitae


praying for strength? instead of giving yourself a kick in the butt to get yourself going you're asking for the intervention of an ALL POWERFUL BEING to give you that kick. that's not just lazy, that's arrogant.

I'm assuming that by strength, you mean physical strength. The only example that I can think of when people prayed for physical strength are sports. You've probably seen teams doing it before the start of Super Bowls. They huddle around and lower their heads while the coach says a prayer. Now, madnessinmysoul, are you saying that these guys are sloths? They train their bodies to the limit and have worked their entire lives to become professional players, and yet they still find time to pray.

Like I said, this argument is pretty obsolete.

[edit on 5/20/2007 by TheB1ueSoldier]



posted on May, 20 2007 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by ben91069
What if many people who pray also take action madness?


then they should be spending the time that they're praying on taking MORE action.



You see not everything is possible to do if it is dependent on outside circumstances. What I mean is that take world peace for example. If you work towards it and pray for it, yet the rest of the world wants to fight, then how is it possibly solvable by you?


i told you, it's hard and thankless work. the whole prayer part isn't going to help, it's just going to waste time. it doesn't matter if you're going to solve the problem on your own, it matters that you do your part.



It is out of your power, thus is why people ask for divine intervention.


but it ISN'T out of our power. if everyone that prostrated themselves asking for world peace instead worked for it, imagine the change we could make!



Also, what about the things that are impossible, like bringing back a dead child?


well.... why the hell would you pray for that?



With man, this is impossible, with God it will be possible at the end of time.


again, why the hell would you pray for that? i thought christians viewed the afterlife as infinitely better than the first one.



Most people who pray simply put more hope in God than humans or the world.


maybe they should put hope in themselves.


Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Well, let's look at some examples of Christians(people who pray) simultaneously working for world peace.


so you know, i'm not saying that christians are bad. i'm saying the PRACTICE OF PRAYING is arrogant and lazy.



How about the Christian Children's Fund? Do they not create peace throughout 3rd world countries by donating money for education, medical aid, and food for children?


but are the donations coming because of prayer or action?



Now I hardly think that's "thankless work."


i wouldn't know, i sadly can't see what you posted.



If there was no physical action taken to abolish the death penalty, then how did you hear about all of the controversy surrounding it?


i never said there was no physical action, i'm saying the prayer vigils are a waste of time.



Pope John Paul II, a man who obviously prays, has voiced his opinion and has written an encyclical about capital punishment.


but did he write the encyclical by praying?



Its a very good read: Evangelium Vitae


actually, i'll disagree with you on that, it's not a very good read. i just never liked the man's writing style.



I'm assuming that by strength, you mean physical strength.


no, i meant the metaphorical strength. the strength to get through just one more day of crap.



The only example that I can think of when people prayed for physical strength are sports. You've probably seen teams doing it before the start of Super Bowls. They huddle around and lower their heads while the coach says a prayer. Now, madnessinmysoul, are you saying that these guys are sloths?


no, but i would think that they're hypocrites. whenever they win they thank god, but they never say that they lost because of god...



They train their bodies to the limit and have worked their entire lives to become professional players, and yet they still find time to pray.


time that could be used to... i don't know, become productive members of society...



Like I said, this argument is pretty obsolete.


no, your false interpretation of my argument is.

[edit on 5/20/07 by madnessinmysoul]



posted on May, 20 2007 @ 09:59 PM
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What a cop out... Resorting to feigning ignorance and claiming "Hey I didn't mean that" when it was obvious you did. Read your first post, then read my second post, then the pieces of the puzzle should click into place.

And here's the link again, fixed.



posted on May, 20 2007 @ 11:07 PM
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Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
What a cop out... Resorting to feigning ignorance and claiming "Hey I didn't mean that" when it was obvious you did.


i didn't mean that those that prayed were sloths, i merely said that prayer is sloth. i'm saying that prayer is lazy, i never said that everyone who prays doesn't do anything.



Read your first post, then read my second post, then the pieces of the puzzle should click into place.


i reread them both. all i'm saying is that prayer accomplishes nothing. you're taking it as an attack on those that pray. i'm attacking the ACT of prayer, telling people to stop it. i never said that those who pray don't do good things, i'm just saying that they could do more good things in the time that they are spending praying.

i never said that those who pray are sloths
hell, it's clear you're misinterpreting things when you say i'm talking about physical strength even though i'm talking about metaphorical strength.

at least respond to the further posts i bring up.
and don't be so touchy, i'm just attacking an act.



posted on May, 21 2007 @ 02:46 AM
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To those of you who are christians on this thread. Don't go for the bait that madness has thrown you, he does this all the time, putting out questions that only someone who is not a christian would ask because he does not know God and he can't understand the way he works. He thinks he does though. with the question he has thrown us it is obvious that he thinks prayer does not work and no matter how much we say that it does he will deny it because he is on a bit of a crusade against christianity. After two years searching he did not find God. I think that if he spent as much time looking for the truth as he does on these forums, he would now believe in God.
Personally I think he is still searching and hopeing to find the truth, this is just his way of getting his questions answered with a mix of resentment thrown in.
Madness, I will pray for you, It does not matter how much you shout and stamp your feet, God is there and allways will be, at least for 2.1 billion of us.
I look forward to your posts though because you bring up points that I didn't think existed. Keep up the entertainment.
jon


[edit on 21-5-2007 by jon1]



posted on May, 21 2007 @ 08:51 AM
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I think madness has a point.

If millions of people pray every day, some of them will be praying at odds with one another. How does "god" choose whose prayers to answer and whose to not?

Statistically speaking, if you spend lots of time praying, occasionally something you've prayed for is going to happen. It's the law of averages.

Doesn't mean your prayers were answered though. Just means that statistically your number came up.



posted on May, 21 2007 @ 10:26 AM
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Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
I think madness has a point.

If millions of people pray every day, some of them will be praying at odds with one another. How does "god" choose whose prayers to answer and whose to not?

Statistically speaking, if you spend lots of time praying, occasionally something you've prayed for is going to happen. It's the law of averages.

Doesn't mean your prayers were answered though. Just means that statistically your number came up.


Statisically as christians, our number comes up way over any averages.
Thats why we pray
jon



posted on May, 21 2007 @ 02:37 PM
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Do you have a place where I can see these statistics on a graph? Or is this just a belief of yours in the power of prayer?



posted on May, 21 2007 @ 03:06 PM
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Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Do you have a place where I can see these statistics on a graph? Or is this just a belief of yours in the power of prayer?


A graph? we dont do graphs, answered prayer is a normal occurance for praying christians. Not all prayer is answered but nobody keeps a record of it. It is a fact that God answers prayers for the people that pray otherwise we wouldn't bother.
Cheers
jon.



posted on May, 21 2007 @ 03:21 PM
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Prayer (relationship with God) is one of the most productive important things men and women of faith can do. Atheists don't need to see value for it to have value to God and his children.



posted on May, 21 2007 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Do you have a place where I can see these statistics on a graph? Or is this just a belief of yours in the power of prayer?


first of all, i know he doesn't. the templeton foundation (that religious group) did a study to see if prayer positively affected the outcome of heart surgery. they took a sample of identical heart surgeries, had people pray for 1/3 with knowledge that they were being prayed for, 1/3 didn't know they were being prayed for, and 1/3 were left without prayers. they had entire CONGREGATIONS praying for these people but the results showed that those who were prayed for... suffered more complications....
oops.


Originally posted by jon1
putting out questions that only someone who is not a christian would ask because he does not know God and he can't understand the way he works.


i thought god worked in mysterious ways.



He thinks he does though.


well, i think god DOESN'T work... both in theory and in practice.



with the question he has thrown us it is obvious that he thinks prayer does not work and no matter how much we say that it does he will deny it


you're right, no matter how much you SAY i will deny it... however, if you bring up evidence that proves me wrong i will be open minded enough to say i was wrong, because i like to be scientific.



because he is on a bit of a crusade against christianity.


hey hey, come on, be fair. first of all, i'm also against islam, judaism, hinduism, neo-paganism, taoism, etc... with the exception of buddhism to an extent because buddhism has yet to cause any problems for the world.



After two years searching he did not find God.


actually, i spent two years specifically looking for god, i didn't find god in the 14 years proceeding those either



I think that if he spent as much time looking for the truth as he does on these forums, he would now believe in God.


so you're going to pull the "you haven't looked hard enough" bs on me? first of all, these forums are supposed to be a quest for truth, truth through discourse. i look for truth every day of my life, in every aspect. but the problem is... no proof. christianity, along with every other religion in existence, has absolutely no evidence to show that it is true.



Personally I think he is still searching and hopeing to find the truth, this is just his way of getting his questions answered with a mix of resentment thrown in.


there's no resentment, just frustration. if we pooled all the hours spent talking to ourselves and thinking someone was listening and put them towards some productive goal we'd be able to achieve a lot.



Madness, I will pray for you,


then i'll think for you.



It does not matter how much you shout and stamp your feet, God is there and allways will be, at least for 2.1 billion of us.


actually 3.2015 billion, don't forget the muslims and the jews.
and you used the bandwagon logical fallacy



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