Can We End the American Empire Before It Ends Us?

Can We End the American Empire Before It Ends Us?

alternet.org

George W. Bush has, of course, flagrantly violated his oath of office, which requires him "to protect and defend the constitution," and the opposition party has been remarkably reluctant to hold him to account. Among the "high crimes and misdemeanors" that, under other political circumstances, would surely constitute the Constitutional grounds for impeachment are these: the President and his top officials pressured the Central Intelligence Agency to put together a National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) on Iraq's nuclear weapons that both the administration and the Agency knew to be patently dishonest. They then used this false NIE to justify an American war of aggression. After launching an invasion of Iraq, the administration unilaterally reinterpreted international and domestic law to permit the torture of prisoners held at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad, at Guant·namo Bay, Cuba, and at other secret locations around the world.

(visit the link for the full news article)

first of all, this submission is not intended to be pro- or anti- anything. i'm simply posting this here in order to gather input and opinions from the ATS community in general and our american members in particular, regarding this article and the views expressed therein.

(be kind, this is my 1st news submission)

alternet.org
(visit the link for the full news article)

not sure if i should make a new thread or news submission on this but i found this article just a couple of clicks ago and after reading it, felt that i should post this on here in order to add more content to the discussion. if i erred in doing so, then i hope the mods will kindly correct my mistake by removing the external qoute and link below.

Who Will Win in the 21st Century?
But in this year's study, the U.S. skidded five positions in its ranking for "government efficiency," a metric devised from factors such as fiscal soundness, trade freedom, and bureaucracy. Survey respondents marked the U.S. down in areas such as its legal and regulatory framework, independence of the public service from political interference, and even the behavior of customs authorities. Chile, Estonia, and even China all scored better, in aggregate.

BusinessWeek


[edit on 19-5-2007 by toreishi]

Any great empire that abuses it's powers soon falls.
It already is, just slow enough to boil a frog.

The housing market bubble burst is a sign, all that money wasted on a war that didn't need to happen, are they related? Perhaps not directly, but somethings got to give.

If it wasn't for China buying debt, and the US being it's valued customers, the US would have been toast a long time ago.

its already ended... the so called war on terror and the invasion of Iraq were the last hurrah's for the American century... the people, republican or democrat, who inherit power after bush minor will have to use it to clean up the messes they were left with and to deal with the troubles that already loom on the horizon. Our grand children will recieve a far more constrained future than we recieved.

Welcome aboard, and I promise to use small caliber ammunition...this time.

The short answer to your question is that we won't be able to fix what's wrong with America until it actually breaks. The example you give is that of a over-reaching Executive. As bad as things are, I have predicted in my posts and in my published work that it'll get much worse before it actually breaks...so tha we can fix it.

Bush43 has broken some of the rules, and severely bent others. Even so, he has not so fully overstepped his authority that we've been plunged in a nation-breaking Constitutional crisis. Having sayd that, we all need to play close attention to what the next President does. That person...whoever that is...could very well be the one who pushes us over the edge.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
Welcome aboard, and I promise to use small caliber ammunition...this time.

The short answer to your question is that we won't be able to fix what's wrong with America until it actually breaks. The example you give is that of a over-reaching Executive. As bad as things are, I have predicted in my posts and in my published work that it'll get much worse before it actually breaks...so tha we can fix it.

Bush43 has broken some of the rules, and severely bent others. Even so, he has not so fully overstepped his authority that we've been plunged in a nation-breaking Constitutional crisis. Having sayd that, we all need to play close attention to what the next President does. That person...whoever that is...could very well be the one who pushes us over the edge.

Yet Justin, Yet. mark my word there are a good half dozen actions by bush minor that blossom into a full blown consitituitional crisis yet... I still believe he will instigate one before his term is out and probably before this year is out.

wow! you guys are quick .. lots of thanks to those who have replied so far; and to those who have yet to post here, know that your thoughts and opinions on this topic will be very much appreciated.

I don't put it past Mr. bush to engineer a crisis. I also understand that its possible for something unforseen to happened. If it doesn't happen on is watch, we'd better be prepared for it to happened while the next President is in office.

Although I happen to agree with the quotation, it's not a news article, it's a diatribe. Toadmund identified the real problem. We've been spending a huge amount of money for all sorts of things like the Iraq war, and other useless things without collecting the taxes needed to fund them. Instead we've borrowed insane amounts of money from other countries. In addition, China and the wealthy in the middle east are quietly buying U.S. businesses and other assets so the profits from them go overseas.

At present, about $3,000 of each of our individual income tax is going to pay interest on our national debt rather than supply services like education, better transportation, better health care, etc. and this will only get worse.

The adminstrations over the last eight years haven't reduced our taxes, they merely deferred them. We are mortgaged to the hilt and when we can't continue paying, the other countries are going to foreclose. That will be the end of our empire, and we will become a third world country. There will be a few wealthy, powerful families but most of our children will be moved from middle class to poverty. Their living conditions will be much worse than ours are at present.

What can save us? Global Warming!! It will screw up the entire world economy so much that we'll all be in the same miserable boat.

Occam

Show me where the Constitution states the "legality" of a war. Show me what "legal" war is. Show me the specific "crimes" committed that are not JUST the "beliefs" of the "opposition party - Democrats - "



I am not being pro- anti anything either just stating what needs to be stated.

ok i'll take the bait

War is a prolonged state of violent, large-scale conflict involving two or more groups of people. ...factors leading to war are often complicated and due to a range of issues. Where disputes arise over issues such as territory, sovereignty, resource, or ideology, and a peaceable resolution fails, is not sought, or is thwarted, war often results.

...The exact conduct of war will depend to a great extent upon its objectives, which may include factors such as the seizure of territory, the annihilation of a rival state, the destruction of the enemy's ability to prosecute military action, the subjugation of another people or recognition of one's own people as a separate state, or genocide.

WikiPedia

are there really specific goals and objectives of the current war on terror?
or is this war merely feeding the companies and individuals who profit from war? wouldn't this war only fuel more disgruntlement and distrust towards the U.S., and perhaps by extension, the principles that it stands for? these are just some of the questions in my head. and yea i'm sorry if all i have are questions as i don't really have answers. at first, this war on terror seemed to make some sense. but now that its going nowhere with no end in sight, i just don't know anymore.

perhaps the quote below might make better sense.

"It is of course well known that the only source of war is politics ... war is simply a continuation of political intercourse, with the addition of other means." - Carl von Clausewitz, Vom Kriege (On War)

...and its not really just about war. if people would care to read through the entire article perhaps they'd understand the need for america to regain the moral high ground, if only to serve as a beacon of light and to serve as an inspiration for others in an ever-darkening world (i think that's what your statue of liberty stands for, am i right?)

[edit on 19-5-2007 by toreishi]

Starting a war under false pretenses is considered treason.
He lied to the American public about having any good reason to
get into Iraq.

Originally posted by forestlady
Starting a war under false pretenses is considered treason.
He lied to the American public about having any good reason to
get into Iraq.

False pretenses? Do you mean intelligence received from the Clinton gutted CIA, and Clintons main man George Tenet?

Was it Bush that lied, or was it Sadamm Hussein? Which one violated 18 U.N. resolutions? (It was Sadamm)

I know one of the tenets of Socialism/Nazism/Communism is to repeat something so many times till people believe it's true. I think your above statements may qualify as doing just that.

YES lets end AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm all for it!! Then we can leave all you little meandering pissant nations on you own!!!!!!

Its real easy in a bar fight to say this and that standing behind your 6' 4" buddy!! Lets take away the buddy!! Spain tried it, wow that worked!

For all of you who look forward to the USA's demise, where is your 6'4" buddy then?? who then will you cowardly stand behind??

You all make me sick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hand that feeds you, you ever heard of that??

Originally posted by redseal
YES lets end AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm all for it!! Then we can leave all you little meandering pissant nations on you own!!!!!!

Its real easy in a bar fight to say this and that standing behind your 6' 4" buddy!! Lets take away the buddy!! Spain tried it, wow that worked!

For all of you who look forward to the USA's demise, where is your 6'4" buddy then?? who then will you cowardly stand behind??

You all make me sick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hand that feeds you, you ever heard of that??

Redseal- I don't think anyone wants Amercia to end I know I don't. Their stating we're in big trouble, and the next president can make us or break us. Their also talking about ending the corruption in America. I can tell by your anger you love America. But you know what shape this nation is- she's handing on by her fingernails. The US is on the verge of being broke. Thats why we have to choose a good president next term.

In this situation, does it really matter about the USA's military strength?
The murderers want the USA out of their country, or should I say countries. Do it.
Now comes the dialogue, eg Strike any NATO or US State and the retaliation will be so strong it wont be a matter of being concerned about your family, extremists will have not a need to check. These murderers know only pure power and the realization no matter, there will be nothing to write to or about.

Dallas

No one ever wins in war there is just degrees of loss.


Is this cycle of madness ever going to end without history constantly repeating itself?

Older men declare war. But it is the youth that must fight and die.
Herbert Hoover

[edit on 19-5-2007 by Realtruth]

Originally posted by forestlady
Starting a war under false pretenses is considered treason.
He lied to the American public about having any good reason to
get into Iraq.

I guess you should go after president Putin too...

(CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin said his country warned the United States several times that Saddam Hussein's regime was planning terror attacks on the United States and its overseas interests.
..........
"I can confirm that after the events of September 11, 2001, and up to the military operation in Iraq, Russian special services and Russian intelligence several times received ... information that official organs of Saddam's regime were preparing terrorist acts on the territory of the United States and beyond its borders, at U.S. military and civilian locations," Putin said.

www.cnn.com...

Oh and don't forget the Clintons...

Clinton believes Iraq had weapons of mass destruction: Portugal PM
LISBON (AFP) Jan 09, 2004

Former US president Bill Clinton said in October during a visit to Portugal that he was convinced Iraq had weapons of mass destruction up until the fall of Saddam Hussein, Portuguese Prime Minister Jose Manuel Durao Barroso said late Thursday.

www.spacewar.com...

Perhaps you also want to "prosecute" most of the world leaders all who believed there were WMD in Iraq. The only difference was that the leaders from Russia, China, France, Germany, and a few other leaders from other countries wanted to keep the sanctions in place which killed over 500,000 children under the age of 5 in Iraq, without counting the deaths of Iraqi adults, and which was making these nations rich meanwhile Iraqis were dying because of Saddam's regime...

[edit on 19-5-2007 by Muaddib]

toreishi:

are there really specific goals and objectives of the current war on terror?
or is this war merely feeding the companies and individuals who profit from war? wouldn't this war only fuel more disgruntlement and distrust towards the U.S., and perhaps by extension, the principles that it stands for? these are just some of the questions in my head. and yea i'm sorry if all i have are questions as i don't really have answers. at first, this war on terror seemed to make some sense. but now that its going nowhere with no end in sight, i just don't know anymore.

And technically the feeding of wealth or material supplies to home corporations is actually the exact same as war for the acqurization of wealth, a fully reasonable sense to conduct war.

Fueling hatred of the US?.... Let them hate us, so long as they fear us. That is the pretense in which most empires act. That is not my personal belief as to how to conduct foreign affairs, but every action must be for the good of your self, not the selfless giving of to another.

No war makes sense after 5 years. During WWII the citizens grew tired of seeing it in the papers just like your sick of seeing it on the news.

It is of course well known that the only source of war is politics ... war is simply a continuation of political intercourse, with the addition of other means.

War is the actions of a political body against another for some kind of material or ethical/moral gain, regardless of the decision if the conductors will is seen as justly and rational, then one cannot assume the act of war is an irrational act.

Politics merrily interjects its self into war, as we see now.

america to regain the moral high ground

Cute.

Super Powers never have the "moral" high ground because they are the big badasses that kick others around, hence how one becomes a Super Power. The only thing we have ground on is sheer power, nothing more, nothing less, its all we had, its all we can keep.

Forest Lady:

Starting a war under false pretenses is considered treason.

No its not actually, neither is "lying" to the American people.. To say pretense is to say that war can be conducted for one reason and one reason only, and once the mission is complete the term of war is ended, but thats not how it works in the real world, if the Congress approves war, thats it, the war is now in the hands of the Commander and Chief.

The constitution gives no definition for war, except that it was advised our people remain out of European conflicts. Essentially, we could go to war for the sake of going to war, if Congress approves, we could do what ever we want.

The establishment want the US to fail, and they are doing it with great skills. Just look at amnesty coming monday. Just look at the Patriot Act. Just look at Guantanamo. Just look at 9/11. It's obvious that your government is full of traitors wanting to bring down the USA, bring down democracy, bring down the true patriots. Most won't realize it until foreign troops are in the streets or they end up in a slave labor camp.

You think it can't happen in the USA? The germans in the 30s too. It most likely happens in the superpower of the time. Germany was one of the superpower of the 30s... it was hijacked, now it's the US, it is hijacked. Will the american people overthrow it by any means (peacefully or war) or let happen what happenned to Germany? Anyway, you can't compare the two because this tyranny is worse because it's almost worldwide. It's Iran, it's Mexico, it's the USA, it's Russia, it's China, it's UK, it's France, it's Germany. Where are the good governments? I can't think of any.

But you can change all this in the next election by electing the only one not corrupt, Ron Paul. If not, IMO your country will die in the next presidential term with Hillary or Guiliani. Then you'll have two choice: fight it peacefully will be much harder if not impossible, then it's armed resistance as you have the right and the duty to do as implemented in the constitution, or you'll be enslaved. Think of your childrens and your grandchildrens, what world do you want them to live in? Good luck, canadians will be with you if you make the wise choice of resisting by any means.