Shouldn't

I think to answer your question, you must ask yourself how you would feel about being barraged endlessly by conversion attempts on behalf of all the other religions of the world, all of which believe that only their faith is 'correct'

The Winged Wombat

[edit on 20/5/07 by The Winged Wombat]

Once again I fear I was misinterpreted. I'm not coming at this question as a Christian. I used Christianity as an example because on this board, it seems to be the most well known as far as Heaven, Hell, etc. To use another religion with Heaven and Hell would be to ask the same question. It's perfectly fine with me if you want to substitute Christianity with Islam, Judaism, or Zoroastrianism.

Madness,

You seem to stress the world "belief" a lot. If someone truly believes 100% in their heart like I'm talking about, I say what is the difference? I understand if people who aren't sure take the "why not, I could wrong" stance, but to someone who completely believes in God, that's as good as knowing. And even if they don't, if you were pretty sure that your friend was going to fall into a freezing cold lake and slowly drown, wouldn't you stop him from trying to cross that rickity old bridge? We don't want somebody shoving something down our throats, but think about it from the other person's point of view. They really do think that you're going to suffer someday. Shouldn't it make sense that they'd try to "save" you? Maybe my problem is that I don't put much stock into just magically believing in something without some sort of knowledgeable foundation to back that up. Maybe that's also what caused me to lose my faith. To me, I can know, I can not know, I can be almost sure, not quite sure, sort of sure, don't know one way or another, but I can't just say "Alright. It's true even though there is no way I can ever find out until I'm dead." It would be nice, but it's just so much easier for me to concede to an "I'm not really sure. There are loads of possibilities" type of stance in the end.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Could you please interpret this for us?

Revelation 20:11-15

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

More correctly the traditional Hell is a fair tale. What I mean is that a literal place where we go after judgment to be tortured for sins. That is the understanding of what Hell is supposed to be. But death and hell go hand in hand, where death means simply a separation from God, and hell is the place where that event occurs. It is my understanding that we are in hell right now. We are separated from God by the veil.

In eternity, we are living in the judgment right now it is a finite illusion in an otherwise infinite timeline. This is the lake of fire, or a better description would be a lake of refinement, because that's what fire does - it refines and reduces. The purpose of this judgment is to produce a pure spirit at which point man becomes reunited with God. Notice verse 13 says they were judged by their works, then verse 14 says they were thrown into the lake of fire. It is talking about those who try to find salvation through works as opposed to faith. They are judged as lacking and therefore death and hell (this world) continues in refinement (lake of fire)until those who truly believe all sins are forgiven and rely not on works for salvation.

So what I mean was that hell does not exist in the traditional view. We are experiencing it already. This is our judgment until it produces true believers at which point there is no need for it anymore.

[edit on 20-5-2007 by ben91069]

Originally posted by ben91069
More correctly the traditional Hell is a fair tale.

Could you please interpret this for us?

Luke 16:19-24
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Could you please interpret this for us?

Revelation 20:11-15

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

... It is my understanding that we are in hell right now. We are separated from God by the veil.

If that is your understanding, your understanding is flawed, my friend, at least from the perspective of biblical and traditional teaching; I have asked you before to provide your scriptural basis for your beliefs and so far you have not provided them. If your beliefs are not backed up by scripture or other church teachings, please, have the courtesy to define them as non-christian.

In eternity, we are living in the judgment right now it is a finite illusion in an otherwise infinite timeline. This is the lake of fire, or a better description would be a lake of refinement, because that's what fire does - it refines and reduces. The purpose of this judgment is to produce a pure spirit at which point man becomes reunited with God. Notice verse 13 says they were judged by their works, then verse 14 says they were thrown into the lake of fire. It is talking about those who try to find salvation through works as opposed to faith. They are judged as lacking and therefore death and hell (this world) continues in refinement (lake of fire)until those who truly believe all sins are forgiven and rely not on works for salvation.

Again, not supported anywhere in biblical scripture. It's as if you decided that the traditional and standard interpretation of Revelations was just too hard to swallow so you came up with this "alternate" story. Please, if you can show me that I am wrong in this, show me where there is any support for your position in tradtional Christian theology.

Originally posted by Stormrider
Ben, would you be kind enough to give chapter and verse references for your contention that everyone's sins are forgiven, unconditionally?

Certainly. In context, talking about Sarah and Rebecca as a type:

Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

Discussing why all are forgiven through the unseen hierarchy of spiritual representations of man and woman:

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else, were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

JC talking about the ways of God. If JC instructs us to act this way, then how much more will Big Daddy extend that to all:

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

JC tells a man with sickness his sins are unconditionally forgiven:

Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

All sins are forgiven except denying the same:

Mat 12:31 Wherefore, I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever, speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever, speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Speaking to brethren in Colossae (Colossians):

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

More:

Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

ben91069, would you please kindly reply to my post above?

Originally posted by Stormrider
If that is your understanding, your understanding is flawed, my friend, at least from the perspective of biblical and traditional teaching; I have asked you before to provide your scriptural basis for your beliefs and so far you have not provided them. If your beliefs are not backed up by scripture or other church teachings, please, have the courtesy to define them as non-christian.

Sorry I did not respond within your time frame since I was busy doing exactly as you asked. I guess if more than one hour goes by that is not good enough for you, yet it makes no difference to me if any of my posts get responses.

The operative words you use are biblical and traditional. I guess what you mean is the traditional biblical teaching.

Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

I am responding to both you and WiseSheep so if you will give me the courtesy of patience in allowing me to make a coherent post I will address as much as I possibly can. When two people bring up points faster than I can respond to them, it is quite impossible to answer everything, no?

Originally posted by ben91069
I am responding to both you and WiseSheep

Negative, see what I was wanting is your interpretation of precisely these verses below.

Luke 16:19-24
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
ben91069, would you please kindly reply to my post above?

I answered the first one about hell and death. The second scripture need not rehash what I already said. Simply interpret hell to mean the place where we are separated from God and are becoming refined.

The wording is purely figurative. If it weren't why could the rich man see Lazarus from hell? The hell in this story is the physical plane of existence and Abraham's bosom is figurative for the spiritual plane or that of becoming a child of Abraham and receiving the Kingdom of Heaven. The wording used as such to describe the difference is to show not that hell is extremely hot, but rather that no amount of quenching will ever stop the eternal refinement on the physical plane after the dead are resurrected. It uses symbology much the way it is used in Revelations and much the same way much of the bible does.

Jesus used parables that have a hidden meaning. This is a clue to you to what is presented in the Bible is not what it appears to be, but a layered story that reads usually opposite of what you think it means. I have interpreted it the way you have a long time ago and heard all the same teachings that is espoused by the church, yet many people (except a few) are coming to find the new interpretation even though it teaches exactly what Jesus taught that all sins are forgiven - not just what you did, not just what you are now doing, but also what you will do. This is an eternal forgiveness, not just temporal. If we are forgiven eternally, then the view of hell being a hot box full of burning flesh as punishment denies the truth that Jesus spoke. The hell concept must therefore be redefined to mean something entirely different than what we think it does.

Originally posted by ben91069
The wording is purely figurative.

Is this wording purely figurative?

John 11:43-44
43And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

44And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Originally posted by ben91069
If it weren't why could the rich man see Lazarus from hell?

Luke 16:25-26
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Originally posted by ben91069
Jesus used parables that have a hidden meaning.

Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Originally posted by ben91069
yet many people (except a few) are coming to find the new interpretation even though it teaches exactly what Jesus taught that all sins are forgiven - not just what you did, not just what you are now doing, but also what you will do. This is an eternal forgiveness, not just temporal. If we are forgiven eternally, then the view of hell being a hot box full of burning flesh as punishment denies the truth that Jesus spoke.

Precisely who's sins are forgiven?

Originally posted by Stormrider
You see, from what I read in the Bible, it appears that there are certain conditions to that salvation, which you even mention a little further down in your post. It's called Grace combined with faith; obviously God does not grant that Grace and faith to everyone or else we wouldn't be having this discussion with so many who still don't believe. How is it, in your theology, that those who reject Christ still end up having their sins forgiven and getitng a free pass to eternal glory?

There is but one sin and that is to deny the spirit of holiness. When we uphold it, we have what we call faith. Faith is given to us by the grace of God and it is given as God sees fit, not by our choice, certainly not by being converting by others to Christianity. It is God's alone to give. The chosen ones are not called chosen because they made a decision to accept the Holy Spirit, but because they were chosen to have the truth made known to them, which gives them faith. Through them, the rest of the world is sanctified, because whether you are a believer or not, your sins are still forgiven, except blaspheming the spirit. This is the meaning of that scripture I dropped on you:

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else, were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

The man in this story is the bridegroom; Jesus Christ and the 144,000. The woman is the rest of the world, those that are not chosen. Do you understand why everyone is saved by the few? This is also why a bridegroom paid a dowry to the brides family to have her hand in marriage.
Our dowry is the blood of Christ.

If there is no free will then we are nothing but robots and God's grace and Christ's death mean nothing.

Contrarily, if it weren't for God's grace we could achieve our own salvation and have no need of Christ. Sorry if it bothers you that you are not your own master, but we are simply vessels experiencing the best and only drama there is. God's grace supports the fact that we are chosen not that we chose, which we only think we do until we find out how badly we have been deceived.

Calling free will a "device of Satan" does not align with your other statement here, the one about grace through faith; how exactly are we to place our faith in Christ if we do not choose to do so?

As stated before, our choices are made for us. Faith is not choosing to believe in something, which is one definition of faith. We are not believing that our car will have air in the tires today based on evidence. Biblically, faith is believing in the unseen which we cannot choose, because we must "see" something first to choose. How can one choose to believe in something they can't see? Only by God. There is no other way. Remember, even Christ went out and chose his disciples, not the other way around. Doesn't that tell you something?

Many people have heard the gospel preached and have either rejected the word altogether or have taken it with a grain of salt, in neither case causing any change in their life. So, if there is no free will, we have no choice in the matter, is that what your saying?

Precisely, which is why I stand behind the idea that it makes no difference if a Christian goes out and "witnesses" to others in an effort to convert them. I once was indoctrinated into thinking that was a worthy cause, that we were going out and contributing to saving people. Yet, God is doing the saving and when you eliminate free will, you understand that hearing the word comes within you and not outside of you.

That God will send everyone to Heaven whether they want to go or not?

The non-believers receive the New Earth. It is Heaven on Earth, not Heaven itself, that is reserved for the chosen ones.

As far as the believer coming up with the idea to believe in Jesus, I believe you are way off the mark; it is the work of the Holy Spirit to both bring about conviction of sin and belief; that is where your faith comes from, as well the Grace to believe.

I never said it was the believers idea to believe in Jesus. It is God's idea and those who do, do so because of God and those who don't do so by the same God. Look here:

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

No eternal damnation. No matter how bad you have been in life or how many lives you have destroyed you go to heaven with the man or woman who spent all of their lives doing good for their fellow man, and not because they were necessarily a "good person", per se, but because they were serving Jesus. How does that compute in your brain, Ben?

Some are neither man nor woman. There are eunichs as well, actors if you will:

Mat 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
Mat 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Why do you suppose castrated men are brought up in a conversation about divorcing ones wife for whatever reasons? It makes a lot more sense if you understand that not everyone in the world is a man or woman, but servants who carry out the will of God. Don't go judging those psychopaths too badly, God may have actually instructed them to carry out their missions to quicken our faith, wherever it may lie.

Because, I gotta tell ya, it makes no sense to me, whatever. All of the New Testament scripture goes contrary to that way of thinking. Jesus, Himself said that there was a hell and people would most certainly go there, whether they wanted to or not.

I thought you believed we had a free will choice of going there or not through JC?

He also said that it was a very narrow path that led to Heaven and very few people find it, taking the "wider"path to destruction, instead.

Is my interpretation the common one or the one less traveled, because I see most people taking the wide path of conventional teaching.

Might I suggest that you go back and re-read your bible on these points and see if, maybe, you are misinformed?

Why does everyone believe I glossed through the bible and need re-training? Would it comfort you to know that I once believed as you do and found something that convinces me to a greater extent? What good would it do if I thought the way you do when I am convinced it does not lead to salvation?

My final thoughts on the old teachings:

Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

In the spirit of drunkenness, it is hard to sober up and start drinking the new wine my friend. That is why my interpretations are hard for most people to understand or even accept.

Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by WiseSheep
ben91069, would you please kindly reply to my post above?

I answered the first one about hell and death. The second scripture need not rehash what I already said. Simply interpret hell to mean the place where we are separated from God and are becoming refined.

The wording is purely figurative. If it weren't why could the rich man see Lazarus from hell? The hell in this story is the physical plane of existence and Abraham's bosom is figurative for the spiritual plane or that of becoming a child of Abraham and receiving the Kingdom of Heaven. The wording used as such to describe the difference is to show not that hell is extremely hot, but rather that no amount of quenching will ever stop the eternal refinement on the physical plane after the dead are resurrected. It uses symbology much the way it is used in Revelations and much the same way much of the bible does.

Well then, I am certainly glad that we have you to interpret it for us, since according to you Christianity has had it completely wrong for the last 2000 years. Would you kindly explain where your insight comes from? What is it that makes you think that your "take" on the bible is more valid than what has been believed by billions of, apparently misguided, Christians for millenia?

Jesus used parables that have a hidden meaning. This is a clue to you to what is presented in the Bible is not what it appears to be, but a layered story that reads usually opposite of what you think it means.

Well, that makes perfect sense; God would never say what He really meant, He would instead say the complete opposite of what was really true. After all, He wouldn't want everybody to be able to understand what He really meant; that's why He made sure you would be around to give us the "real truth". But what about all of the hundreds of millions of believers, in what you call a lie? You know, the ones who don't know how to reach you here on ATS. Man, you should really write a book and go on sattelite TV, to make sure the whole world gets the "whole story".

I have interpreted it the way you have a long time ago and heard all the same teachings that is espoused by the church, yet many people (except a few) are coming to find the new interpretation even though it teaches exactly what Jesus taught that all sins are forgiven - not just what you did, not just what you are now doing, but also what you will do. This is an eternal forgiveness, not just temporal. If we are forgiven eternally, then the view of hell being a hot box full of burning flesh as punishment denies the truth that Jesus spoke. The hell concept must therefore be redefined to mean something entirely different than what we think it does.

Who are you referring to, when you say "the way you have a long time ago"?
And which church espoused these teachings? There is no biblical support for the contention that all sins are forgiven for everyone, without condition, repeat none, zilch, nada, zip! Stop preaching what isn't true and read the last paragraph of the Book of Revelation, about what happens to those who add or detract from what is taught there; Oh yeah!, let me guess, that was not really what He meant either.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Is this wording purely figurative?

John 11:43-44
43And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

44And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Yes. If you read the whole account of Lazarus in John, you see it is speaking about the end of the age and the resurrection of all those asleep, not just one man.

Luke 16:25-26
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Why would there be a line of communication in your mind between Heaven and Hell after the judgment? If you are judged already, what is the point of being able to plead your case eternally afterwards? Why not just send the wicked to hell and forget about them, yet clearly by this scripture you are saying both parties are able to continue talking even though it claims there is a fixed gulf or "void" between the two. It is talking about the spirit and the physical. We can communicate two-way in spirit but we are separated from that world. To be spirit is better than to be flesh, which is why Lazarus is contrasted as being in a better place than the rich man. It is simple as that.

Originally posted by ben91069
Jesus used parables that have a hidden meaning.

Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

If you understand this, then why do you not see beneath the words and only offer an interpretation of how the words read?

Precisely who's sins are forgiven?

Everyone's sins are forgiven.

[edit on 20-5-2007 by ben91069]

[edit on 20-5-2007 by ben91069]

Wine only comes from the vine. Darkness does not graft in with light. Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

Originally posted by Stormrider
Well then, I am certainly glad that we have you to interpret it for us, since according to you Christianity has had it completely wrong for the last 2000 years.

The disciples and brethren had the truth when Jesus was around, but since the falling away, everyone forgot the true message.

Would you kindly explain where your insight comes from? What is it that makes you think that your "take" on the bible is more valid than what has been believed by billions of, apparently misguided, Christians for millenia?

Because it makes more sense to me than a relgion that has no power of salvation. To claim Jesus saves and then tack on conditional statements makes a mockery of Christ, his sacrifice, God and pretty much every bit of God's word. You are more than welcome to believe what you want to believe, but I will always look to what is true to me.

Well, that makes perfect sense; God would never say what He really meant, He would instead say the complete opposite of what was really true. After all, He wouldn't want everybody to be able to understand what He really meant; that's why He made sure you would be around to give us the "real truth".

It states very clearly that JC speaks in parables to hide information from certain people. So even though you feel God would or should never speak in a cryptic manner, he does so all the time. Also, I am not on ATS to be able to give you the real truth. That is not my intention here. My life's mission is to find God. It has nothing to do currently with making sure you know what I know. If I happen to comment on ATS about a topic, it is no different than me commenting about the proper way to hone a cylinder in an automotive forum.

But what about all of the hundreds of millions of believers, in what you call a lie? You know, the ones who don't know how to reach you here on ATS. Man, you should really write a book and go on sattelite TV, to make sure the whole world gets the "whole story".

What about them? The information I speak of is freely available to anyone for the asking. You don't need me to go on a crusade for God. Besides, the whole world does not need the whole story. It is essential that most of the world does not know the whole story right now.

Who are you referring to, when you say "the way you have a long time ago"?

Are you not clear on which two people are in this particular dialog?

And which church espoused these teachings? There is no biblical support for the contention that all sins are forgiven for everyone, without condition, repeat none, zilch, nada, zip!

I already quoted the bible where JC explicitly and unconditionally pardons a man with sickness from all sin. Here it is again if you've lost note of it:

Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Now what part of that do you not understand?

Stop preaching what isn't true and read the last paragraph of the Book of Revelation, about what happens to those who add or detract from what is taught there; Oh yeah!, let me guess, that was not really what He meant either.

Have I not quoted directly from the bible the verses you've asked for that back up the claim that Jesus taught unconditional forgiveness of sins? Yet, you deny that he ever once made that claim and it isn't supported biblically. Organized religion is the ones twisting the bible to into an unholy meaning with connotations that God will throw you into a blazing inferno. My version is much more sympathetic to the human soul and Jesus approved.

Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by Stormrider
You see, from what I read in the Bible, it appears that there are certain conditions to that salvation, which you even mention a little further down in your post. It's called Grace combined with faith; obviously God does not grant that Grace and faith to everyone or else we wouldn't be having this discussion with so many who still don't believe. How is it, in your theology, that those who reject Christ still end up having their sins forgiven and getitng a free pass to eternal glory?

There is but one sin and that is to deny the spirit of holiness. When we uphold it, we have what we call faith.

Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?"

41Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains. John 9:40-41

If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us 1John 1:6-10

Then He said again to them, "I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come." John 8:21

As you can see, sin plays a very integral roll in biblical teaching about our relationship with God and Christ. To obviate these examples or set them and hundreds of others aside, as misunderstood or irrelevant, makes the whole point of Salvation, ie, man inteligently and willfully accepting the sacrifice of Christ as payment for their own sins, moot. After all, why worry about my wreckless and anti-social behaviour being offensive to God? All I have to do is keep doing what I'm doing, no matter how many others I may hurt, God is o.k. with it and is going to reward me with heaven anyway. That is contrary to God's own words and those pof Christ as well.

[edit on 5/20/2007 by Stormrider]

Originally posted by Herman

I think to answer your question, you must ask yourself how you would feel about being barraged endlessly by conversion attempts on behalf of all the other religions of the world, all of which believe that only their faith is 'correct'

The Winged Wombat

[edit on 20/5/07 by The Winged Wombat]

Once again I fear I was misinterpreted. I'm not coming at this question as a Christian. I used Christianity as an example because on this board, it seems to be the most well known as far as Heaven, Hell, etc. To use another religion with Heaven and Hell would be to ask the same question. It's perfectly fine with me if you want to substitute Christianity with Islam, Judaism, or Zoroastrianism.

Herman,

I was using the example that you were using! The answer remains the same, substitute any religion you wish - would you want all the religions (all of whom believe that they, and ony they, are right) all trying to convert you to their belief?

The Winged Wombat

Stormrider,

Returning to your original point. Yes, I can see the Christian view regarding conversion and your personal feeling vis a vis other members of your family.

But, please see the situation from the other side (well any side other than the person who wants to do the converting). How would you feel, personally, if, for instance, every Jew you met tried to convert you to his/her view. Take that analogy a little further and consider that every Muslim might want to convert you as well. Obviously the situation becomes totally intolerable, doesn't it.

Both Jews and Muslims, among others, are equally convinced that their faith is correct, while I can see your point of view, then I think you should see other people's point of view in the same way.

From a purely practical perspective, I would observe (athough I don't know why it should necessarily be so) that those people who do try to convert other (regardless of what they are trying to convert them to) become polarised within society as they end up with only people of their own view to talk to. A perfect example would be Amway!

The Winged Wombat


[edit on 20/5/07 by The Winged Wombat]

Originally posted by ben91069

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else, were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

The man in this story is the bridegroom; Jesus Christ and the 144,000. The woman is the rest of the world, those that are not chosen. Do you understand why everyone is saved by the few? This is also why a bridegroom paid a dowry to the brides family to have her hand in marriage.
Our dowry is the blood of Christ.

That is is simply not proved out in the context of chapter 7 of 1 Corinthians:The following verses, ( that you conveniently ignored), put your quote in a better context:

Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.

For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife? 1 Cor 7: 15-16

As is clear to anyone who reads it, Paul is speaking about the relationship between husbands and wives in general and in the Church at Galatia, in particular. He was talking about whether those who had freshly been born again as believers were obligated to remain in a marriage with an unbelieving spouse. This certainly still relates to modern day relationships, but to arbitrarily decide that Paul was talking about Christ as the bridegroom is not backed up by the context of the chapter or anywhere else in his epistle. What you are doing is cherry picking verses you like and assigning meaning to them that was not intended in the original. That is not only poor scholarship it is dishonest and disingenuous.

Contrarily, if it weren't for God's grace we could achieve our own salvation and have no need of Christ. Sorry if it bothers you that you are not your own master, but we are simply vessels experiencing the best and only drama there is. God's grace supports the fact that we are chosen not that we chose, which we only think we do until we find out how badly we have been deceived.

Really? How exactly could man achieve his own salvation, apart from God? I think you left out a word in your 1st sentance between "could" and "achieve", that word is NOT. I am not bothered by the fact that I am not my own master, I glory in it and thank God every day that He brought me a knowledge of His salvation plan; but make no mistake, I am the one who decided to follow Jesus; I had a choice between continuing on as I had been or changing my path and accepting God's free gift of salvation through Christ. It was not the gift that changed my "destiny", rather it was my acceptance of the gift. Do you see the difference?

As stated before, our choices are made for us. Faith is not choosing to believe in something, which is one definition of faith. We are not believing that our car will have air in the tires today based on evidence. Biblically, faith is believing in the unseen which we cannot choose, because we must "see" something first to choose. How can one choose to believe in something they can't see? Only by God. There is no other way. Remember, even Christ went out and chose his disciples, not the other way around. Doesn't that tell you something?

You have missed the point of faith by a mile, IMO; The whole beauty and mystery of faith is that it does entail "believing" in something that you can neither see, touch or feel; faith is trusting that what God says is true and what Jesus promised will come to pass, even though we can not prove it. The natural man can not concieve of this concept. It is only through the work of the Holy Spirit that one is given the faith he needs to believe, and He does not give it to everyone, else everyone would believe.

originally posted by Stormrider
...That God will send everyone to Heaven whether they want to go or not?

The non-believers receive the New Earth. It is Heaven on Earth, not Heaven itself, that is reserved for the chosen ones.

You are just making this up as you go along, aren't you? Or are you a Jehovah's Witness? That might explain some of you twisted and convoluted interpretaions. BTW - Which translation of the Biblle are you using? The NEw World Translation?

I never said it was the believers idea to believe in Jesus. It is God's idea and those who do, do so because of God and those who don't do so by the same God. Look here:

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

But it is the believer who decides to believe, that is my whole point.

B
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:6-7

Faith is a decision to believe, apart from proof positive that what you believe is true. That is what faith is!

I thought you believed we had a free will choice of going there or not through JC?

Of course I believe in free will; every one has the freedom to either choose eternal life with God or eternal seperation from him. My point was that a lot of people will be very surprised at their eternal destination because they chose to believe the words of men, instead of the words of God; chose to go their own way, instead of God's way. It, in no way, changes the personal responsiblity we all have to decide our own "fate" at the judgement seat; either we choose wisely or we choose poorly, but God is the ultimate Judge.

Is my interpretation the common one or the one less traveled, because I see most people taking the wide path of conventional teaching.

Then you are not looking very far. Most people are taking the wider path of trying to get through life and all of it's problems without God at all. That is why we witness, why we ask people about whether they are saved and going to heaven. If everyone knew the right path and always took it, there would be no need for God or Jesus at all.

Of course, I see how much easier it is to believe what you do. There is zero personal accountability to acknowledge sin in our life or, God forbid, confess it; no need to believe anything at all because everyone is saved without any fuss or muss; how convenient. Makes one wonder why God felt the need for a Bible or Churches or Ministers, missionaries, people like me....but I'm sure you have the answer to that too.

Originally posted by Stormrider
That is is simply not proved out in the context of chapter 7 of 1 Corinthians:The following verses, ( that you conveniently ignored), put your quote in a better context:

Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.

For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife? 1 Cor 7: 15-16

A good point Stormrider, which is exactly why I do not support trying to get people to believe in what I know. It is mine and mine alone, not suitable for for you or anyone else for that matter. I have faith in what I believe and that is sufficient for me. Whether you believe it is true or not is not for me to convince you otherwise. I will attempt to back up my claims for your benefit of understanding, but that does not mean I contend that I am in any way a part of convincing you of anything. It makes no difference to me.

I wasn't leaving out any scripture on purpose, but just for the benefit of making my posts simpler to understand. A few verses are better talking points than an entire chapter and more easily discussed.

But as for the two you mention, the first talks of separation of man and woman, which is what we are doing here in disagreement. In support of my belief, no one is obligated to be a believer or non-believer, but to be peaceable.

The second verse talks about the measure of faith. When we use our works and deeds as salvation, we must take account of whether they have the ability to save not only us, but cover over a multitude of sins in others. Works and deeds always falls short, therefore faith in God forgiving all sins is the only logical way for everyone to be saved - husband or wife.

This is why, even in disagreement between two people over what is right and what is wrong, we are all saved. Unlike Belinda Carslisle though, heaven is not yet a place on Earth.

[edit on 20-5-2007 by ben91069]