Stegosaurus in Cambodian Jungle? Ancient Carving.

Considering that none of the carvings are a 100% accurate depiction of the animals they represent, I think the particular carving-in-question is a rhinocerous. It may not be an adult, but excepting for the tail, it may represent a baby. What others see as horns may be the oversized ears of a juvenile rhino.

(I posted this previously, but it seems to have disappeared. Apologies if a double-post crops up)

Well I've seen/heard of this before, looking at it at a first glance it's easy to beleive it could be a Stegosaur, and I'm not saying it isn't. However why is it not possible for these ancient peoples to have discovered bones & fossilised remains just as we have? We take ancient & early civilisations for granted, bless them with low IQ's and lack of interlect, but we are so wrong. The people living at the time this carving was done could very well have uncovered dinosaur remains & based this carving off them.

Another theory which is possible but unlikely, is some dinosaurs outlived others and their extinction was a slow decline rather than a sudden event. As food sources depleted they were forced to roam to habitats which might not have been suitable to sustain them. Maybe they didn't all die out millions of years BC, maybe they did infact suffer a more staggered death and due to lack of human exploration at the time, this went totaly unnoticed to all but those few who made the carvings.




[edit on 16-2-2009 by The Chez]

Originally posted by SaviorComplex
Considering that none of the carvings are a 100% accurate depiction of the animals they represent, I think the particular carving-in-question is a rhinocerous. It may not be an adult, but excepting for the tail, it may represent a baby. What others see as horns may be the oversized ears of a juvenile rhino.

(I posted this previously, but it seems to have disappeared. Apologies if a double-post crops up)

If this was a Rhino, then where the hell did the plates come from? There is no known modern animal which possesses such an asset. They are quite distinguished on the carving too, there's no way they were added at any later time. Like the OP's original article points out, the temple is patrolled 24/7 by armed guards, nobody would have ever been able to get even close to defacing the carvings like that.
I spose that could implecate the government, but then why? What would a dictatorship have to gain by doing that?

Originally posted by The Chez
If this was a Rhino, then where the hell did the plates come from? There is no known modern animal which possesses such an asset.

There are several explanations for this, which have been discussed in previous posts. It could be the artist was depicting a creature he had never seen but was only described to him; or those "plates" are part of the spiral the animal is standing in.

Other than the "plates", it looks nothing like our current understanding of a stegosaurus. The head is far too large and there is no neck where the stegosaurus had a long one; the tail is too broad and it hangs low. There are no tail-spikes, and the stegosaurus did not possess large ears/horns like the animal in the carving.

I'm still 50/50 on this one though. The fossil theory I gave above is also a good possibility. Say they uncovered the fossil and just at random decided to carve it on the temple wall? They might not have known the animal had been extinct for thousands of years.

I read somewhere that a stegosaur was able to fold it's plates flat on it's side, and they were a simlar thing to say porcupine spines. If this was the case the person who saw it could have mistaken it's folded plates for horns? or the animal could have been standing in such a position that the plates somewhat obscured the face, again causing them to think it was horns.

Note the Triceratops Horns are sticking outward by a long way, if what was on the carvings were horns, then would they not be depicted just as the buffalo horns & deer antlers also on the same wall??

There is also a plate on the tale on the carving, the Triceratops, rhino etc have nothing on the tail at all.

I think it could be down to the position of the animal at the sighting, and maybe the light, was it daylight? moonlight? bright sunlight? rather than anything else.




[edit on 16-2-2009 by The Chez]

reply to post by IrvingTheExplainer


This is indeed the answer.

Didn't I read somewhere and see pictures that ancient Roman artifacts were discovered that had inscriptions of dinosaurs on, most noticeably Brontosaurus? Yet our true understanding of dinosaurs didn't start until the 1800's.



Chuffer

reply to post by The Chez


for the design:

-even IF this carving represents a stegosaur, it is ´faulty´. stegosaurs dont have those round neck plate like a Triceratops. or big horns.

- the horns might rather be ears, did you notice the mouth?
it could be a kind of asian pig.
then the´back plates´are decoration like posted above.




[edit on 8-3-2009 by anti72]

There's a glaring thing no one ever seems to bring up... Ancient Archeologists.

These would be people who find Dinosaur bones, and knowing how such things would be treasured, displayed, or even worshiped- Where the hell are the ancient dinosaur bone displays????? Ancients dug, quarried, and used rock all the time- Where are fossils in building stones- flagstones, or anything else?

In addition to this- all the ancient dino art I have seen so far has them skinned, filled out, and looking nothing like bones. Think of it- a Trex skull- no matter how damaged it would have been, would have been a source of 'power', 'bravery', ect for a king.

Not until a couple hundred years ago did anyone 'find' a fossil and then display it.

All history is Bunk; as Ford said. Why would it not be possible for at least a few Dino's to survive up to the point the the Khmers built Angkor etc?
Dont forget, there are only theories surrounding the sudden disappearance of the ancient Khmer empire -let alone ,Dinosaurs!
I visited Pra Thom in Nov.2008, and managed to photograph the series of carvings from a distance; the photo is a bit grainy when zoomed in, but one can still make out the image! Its not an old movie prop, it is Bona Fide.
My interest went so far as to reviewing the other circular carvings above and below said dinosaur piece. There are human figures etc. Directly above is what appears to be a Buffalo raised on hind legs, and below some sort of fish.
Although said Buffalo and fish do have detail behind them i.e, waves etc, I cannot say for certain say that the relief behind Dino is plates or leaves?!
However, I think that it would be ambitious to name it a Rhino;(where is the horn?)- there are about 9 circular carvings on this particular portion of the wall; with another mystical creature holding the series (at the bottom).
I suppose there are many ways to look at it. We often see iconic christian paintings of God-head with earthly beings!
My next port-of-call is that I am awaiting reply from my tour guide in Cambodia( whom I be-friended), to see what he thinks about it all; seeing that showing individuals around this and all other Angkor temples is his profession- it will be interesting to hear what he knows!
Till then best wishes to all; I will keep you all posted.
Kriskali

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Why would it not be possible for at least a few Dino's to survive up to the point the the Khmers built Angkor etc?

The preponderance of evidence tells us that dinosaurs, particularly stegosaurs, did not survive into the modern era.

Stegosauria didn't go extinct with the dinosaurs; they died out about 80 million years before at the beginning of the Cretaceous period. To put it in a different prespective -- there was more time between the stegosaurs' disappearance from the fossile record and the extinction of all dinosaurs, than there is between the extinction of all dinosaurs and our conversation.

And let's not forget there is no mention of these extraordinary animals anywhere in human records. If such things lived contemporaneous with humans, it is certain we would have some record of it, outside a lone carving in a lone temple.

Stegosauria didn't go extinct with the dinosaurs; they died out about 80 million years before at the beginning of the Cretaceous period. To put it in a different prespective -- there was more time between the stegosaurs' disappearance from the fossile record and the extinction of all dinosaurs, than there is between the extinction of all dinosaurs and our conversation.

_javascript:icon('')
Yeah O.K. good comment.???
What evidence are you speaking about exactly? Like anyone, I also have the ability to parrot things from a text book!
However, the purpose of such a forum is to discus things outside of mass believed hype.
I wonder how many digs you have been on, or what is your experience with real hands-on Paleontology. I am sure it must have been extensive to have such a knowledgeable point of view?
For your information my friend, there have been plenty of documented anomalies ( things showing up in historical periods where they were assumed they shouldn't), thus not "academically" accepted.
Read the book Ancient Traces by Micheal Baigent (1999)- you may find this enlightening?
Look, all I am saying is that its a fools paradise to think that there is still not undiscovered evidence out there to suggest that they did exist in coexistence or isolated from hominids/sapiens,whatever until more recently than accepted.
This would be distressing to academia as it would be necessary to re-asses their Evolutionary rubbish (amongst other things), that is still taught; but still NOT-proven!!! LOL
ALSO: Was "stegosauria" an empire of stegosaurs; an ancient country they resided in; Or in reference to "them" as a whole?
I am most confident that you'll be able to tell us if they were nomadic or herd dwellers as well!
Cheers_javascript:icon('')_javascript:icon('')_javascript:icon('')

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
What evidence are you speaking about exactly?

The fossil record, for one. And the fact there is no evidence these creatures survived into the modern day.

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Like anyone, I also have the ability to parrot things from a text book!

Ah yes; here we have one of those special individuals who thinks just because they read a book that says something "alternative" they are smarter than everyone else.

Tell me, what book are you parroting from? Oh, right...

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Read the book Ancient Traces by Micheal Baigent

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
However, the purpose of such a forum is to discus things outside of mass believed hype.

And here I thought it was to discuss the truth, not to immediately dismiss things out of hand because it is not in some "alternative" book.

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
I wonder how many digs you have been on, or what is your experience with real hands-on Paleontology. I am sure it must have been extensive to have such a knowledgeable point of view?

What an odd and frankly idiotic comment to make. Tell us, how many digs have you participated in to take on such a condescending, arrogant attitude and dismiss my points out of hand?

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
For your information my friend, there have been plenty of documented anomalies ( things showing up in historical periods where they were assumed they shouldn't), thus not "academically" accepted.

And where is it? Thus far, you have produced nothing but a condescending, dismissive attitude but no evidence to support dinosaurs survived into the modern era.

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Look, all I am saying is that its a fools paradise to think that there is still not undiscovered evidence out there...

You are right, there could be. However, there is no reason to assume that evidence is out there. The preponderance of evidence as it stands tell us these animals died out a long time ago.

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
ALSO: Was "stegosauria" an empire of stegosaurs; an ancient country they resided in; Or in reference to "them" as a whole?

This demonstrates your attitude is born of complete ignorance. Stegosauria is an infraorder of dinosaurs to which the stegosaurus and almost 20 other genus of animals belongs.

[edit on 14-3-2009 by SaviorComplex]

This unlikely creature is known as a Liver Bird and is also the symbol of the greatest football team in the world.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ba8cd1ad0d05.jpg[/atsimg]

According to legend, the bird was meant to be an eagle. The sculptor hadn't seen an eagle and relied on a description of an eagle with the resultant 'Liver Bird.'

It's possible the artist was trying to carve an image of a creature from description. The other examples are pretty clear so it's not through lack of skill. Chameleon or misrepresentation of another creature.

There's 100% no chance that it's a stegosaurus! It cannot have side-stepped millions of years of the fossil record and somehow had a presence in the jungle. Something that would dwarf elephants (9 metres long and 4 metres tall) would leave more of a historical record than one small carving

reply to post by LordBaskettIV


great observation



[edit on 14-3-2009 by OpusMarkII]

reply to post by SaviorComplex

The fossil record, for one. And the fact there is no evidence these creatures survived into the modern day.

Unfortunately, your presumptuous "jibberish" about Fossil Records have a great sobering obstacle
: Fossils cannot be carbon dated!')
Dating has been an arbitrary process of a paleontologists "guestimation" of how many millions of years etc; certain strata/sediment, lying on top of a fossil,is perhaps indicative of its age.
True there are other forms of dating available which have in many cases made Radio Carbon Dating obsolete. For example Thermo- luminescence or E.S.R.
I doubt that anyone has invested the time or money to up-date the accuracy of your beloved Fossil Record.
Fossils are in-fact, anomalies themselves.
Normally when animals die they don't automatically become fossils. It takes particular circumstances; (environmental factors, quick burial, mineralogically compatible volcanic debris, soils etc) to produce fossilization. And additionally, they are the product of cataclysm.
And now for preponderance on a few of your "Gems"

What an odd and frankly idiotic comment to make.

a condescending, arrogant attitude

nothing but a condescending, dismissive attitude

This demonstrates your attitude is born of complete ignorance.

Stegosauria is an infraorder of dinosaurs to which the stegosaurus and almost 20 other genus of animals belongs.

Interesting psychological evaluations upon my attitude!!
Unfortunately for you - YOU WERE WRONG.
Also this thread was "Stegosaurus in Cambodia"; remember the carving @ Pra Thom; not the 20 or so other genus , as per your quote - i.e : one carving is probably not representative of whole species/subclasses or otherwise.
May your "preponderance" on these issues be a happy one.
P.s: preponderance- now thats a good word!!! Try and use 5 more times in your next predictable and pathetically futile reply.
Preponderance on the bus ....all the way back to Stegosauria.

I see we have a creationist on our hands...

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Dating has been an arbitrary process of a paleontologists "guestimation" of how many millions of years etc...

Paleontologists have never used radio-carbon-dating of fossils; this is a lie perpetrated by the creationists to try to confuse and muddy the issue.

It is not a "guesstimation" at all; calling it a "guesstimation" and "arbitrary" is a huge (and purposeful) mischaracterization of how the age of a fossil is measure. They use a process called radiometric dating, or radioisotopic dating, to measure the age of the rocks above and beneath the fossil in question. Different isotopes are measured to check the accuracy of the date; due to this accuracy is within a few thousand years and carries an error rate of only 1%

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
I doubt that anyone has invested the time or money to up-date the accuracy of your beloved Fossil Record.

That is quite the claim, do you have any proof of this?

I can go ahead and answer for you. You don't.

Every few years, new geologic time scales are published, providing the latest dates for major time lines. Older dates may change by a few million years up and down, but younger dates are stable.

SOURCE

By virtue of this, the fossil record is updated every few years.

If you want to dismiss the fossil record in its entirety, you still need to explain why stegosauria fossils are found only in rocks of a certain age; why do they not appear in later strata of rock? If you still want to believe this carving somehow represents a member of stegosauria, you still need to explain why the only record of the animal existing in to the modern era is that lone carving.

Provide some evidence, any evidence, that this represents a dinosaur. Just present a cogent argument instead of an ignorant creationist-born dismissal of my argument; dismissing an argument is not the same as proving your argument.

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
all the way back to Stegosauria.

Rather puzzled why you mock me for explaining what stegosauria is when you asked what I meant by it.

Dear friend,
I think that we have both shown that we can match each other in being smug and arrogant! I appreciate that you are knowledgeable in what you speak of; I hope you will forgive me. However please do not think that I am a Creationist.
From your quoted source (and your comment), it appears that you feel that I am of that ilk.
I assure you that I do not allow religious dogma/doctrines/churches etc, make decisions for me; and I have no interest in convincing others that my idea of God-Head is the one and only.
If you honestly believe that all countries governments ( in what-ever country fossils are discovered) are willing, and indeed do allot the financial grants/backing to consistently update the fossil record;that is cool. I would be pleasantly shocked. Can you show me the proof of this?
Anyway- I am sure all the earths fossils haven't been discovered yet, just like many other things. Because of this, I cannot place total faith in Fossil Records, as they are compiled by academics who are not perfectly correct;they are human.
Can you expand or comment on the anomalous nature of fossils?
Or can you provide proof that the carving at Pra Thom is not a contemporary beast to that empire? Don't forget the discovery in West Papua last year of the remote location containing many species of animal that were deemed extinct!
Of coarse something as impressive as a dinosaur would perhaps make an impression enough to maybe consider it auspicious, so as to use it as decoration upon a temple; I am not saying that this carving is not in the realms of say the Unicorn etc, I am just expressing that perhaps there is a remote possibility that a few existed outside of the accepted time frames; and just perchance someone saw it and recorded it in some manner.
I truly hope that you may have the experience of seeing Pra Thom, it is both beautiful and enchanting. You would then fully appreciate how out-of-place this carving seems to be!
best wishes .

If a prehistoric plant the Wollemi Pine could be discovered in an untouched part of the Blue Mountains not far from where i live, Then maybe stegos survived in an untouched part of Cambodia, possibly seen by natives then carved.

Stego believer
Bootsnheels

Originally posted by bootsnheels
...then maybe stegos survived in an untouched part of Cambodia, possibly seen by natives then carved.

That would be quite the feat, considering the stegosaurus did not live in Asia.

This great wesbite contrasts a real stegosaurus to the carving, then compares an asian rhino to the carving. Guess which best matches...