The Detention Vacuum

George says we are in Iraq to remove Terrorism.
George says that Iraqi's want us there, and that we are doing the noble, and righteous thing by humanity.
I perosnally think thats a crock of such and such.


The below article talks about the detention of Iraqi's

harpers.org...

The conclusions of each investigation were roughly the same. At the time, they noted roughly 14,000 Iraqis were being held in a “legal vacuum.” The detention facilities were chaotic, a large portion of the persons held were taken in on sweeps through their neighborhoods and were suspected and charged with nothing. No trials occur, but the detainees languish often for many months – in some cases for more than a year. “They may not be enemies when they enter these prisons,” one Army officer told me, “but you can count on it that they are insurgent sympathizers by the time they leave.”

Take note of the last line

“They may not be enemies when they enter these prisons,” one Army officer told me, “but you can count on it that they are insurgent sympathizers by the time they leave.”

We are effectivley creating terrorists when we send them to the same prison saddam sent them.
To them, we are no better than Saddam's henchmen.
They hear of murders such as haditha, or the abu grahib photos...
They hear about Cheney and co making money...

how are these men supposed to live in this country, when we clearly have no regard for human life, yet they are meant to bow to our emposed democracy?

Al Zawahiri was imprisoned in Egypt after the assasination of the Egyptian leader back in the 70's 80's...
He was tortured, and came out so radicalised.... he begun his vengance on the west.

So how do you honestly think these Iraqi's are going to come out ?
Are they meant to like our democracy once we have wrongfully imprisoned them?
After we've left their family vulnerable?

Imaging coming out of that prison, finding your son has left the family to join a militia, your baby girl was killed in a bombing and your wife kidnapped..
Would you praise the Americans for bringing this lifestyle to your country?
when before,under Saddams day.. you were earning money, living with your family... just under strict rules not to criticise the government?

There’s no accurate count of the missing since the war began. Iraqi human rights groups put the figure at 15,000 or more, while government officials say 40 to 60 people disappeared each day throughout the country for much of last year, a rate equal to at least 14,600 in one year.

What happens when 1 of these 14600 a year... snaps in prisons.
Comes out finding his family murdered... his suburb front line in a secretarian war...
the US and UK expect him to go to work, praise the occupation and move on.

well, thats too hard to do.

When this man seeks revenge... we call him a terrorist, which justifies us killing, bombing and detaining MORE people.

This was never meant to work.

You cant activley invade a country (based on lies)
Setup occupation and a puppet government (that fuels civil war)
Setup a puppet police force (that tortures more than it polices)

And expect the people to get along, and accept you in control of their country.

Admit it, not one person on this board, would do, what the American Gvt is suggesting the Iraqi population do.



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fixed title spelling


[edit on 16/5/07 by masqua]

[edit on 16-5-2007 by Agit8dChop]

And what is your point? They are just like child soldiers. Just more targets if they choose to fight or not.

My point is,
These people are not going to embrace the false democracy we are enforcing on them.
They sure as hell arent going to accept US, if we wrongfully detain 1000's and 1000's of people every year.

Yet, our great and noble leader has stated we will not leave until the violence ends.

We are the ones causing all this violence.
There has been nothing but violence the second we entered this country.

And this articles just proves, that every day we stay, we create more people whom sympathise with the terrorists, and whom hate us.

Alqaeda hates us simply because we didnt tow the line of supreme rightuflness
( no booze, porn premarital sex adda yadda )

How the hell are they going to react, when we use these sins of our civlisation to murder, maime and detain thousands of Muslims?

Yet people such as yourself still honestly beleive Iraq was a right move and us continuing this occupation is nessecary.

Whether it is Al Qaeda or some other person who wants to be a terrorist bent on revenge or for change it don't matter to me. Just like a crime that is always be in existence no matter if everyone is wealthy. They either be killed or capture and put in jail.

news.yahoo.com...;_ylt=AoUjVzyiU4lG2KArS34ItxDzPukA

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Christians in a Pakistani town beset by pro-Taliban militants sought government protection Wednesday, the eve of a deadline for them to convert to Islam or face violence.

About 500 Pakistani Christians in Charsadda, a town in the North West Frontier Province bordering Afghanistan, received letters earlier this month telling them to close their churches and convert by Thursday or be the target of "bomb explosions."

Several Christians, a tiny minority in the predominantly Muslim country, have fled town and others are living in fear, community leaders said.

Some complained that police were not taking the threat seriously.

Now these people had nothing to do with politics with Iraq or Afghanistan, yet they are targeted by the Islamic terrorists or extremists which is also fighting against NATO for revenge for invading Afghanistan.

Your right,
thats afghanistan, not Iraq.
Afghan was always worthy of being sorted out.
Where as Iraq has become the problem since we invaded.

there's a massive difference.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Your right,
thats afghanistan, not Iraq.
Afghan was always worthy of being sorted out.
Where as Iraq has become the problem since we invaded.

there's a massive difference.

How is it any different when suicide bombing and IEDs are being using and we are still in Afghanistan since 2001, six years.

Al-qeada, Al-qeada, Al-qeada, the only terrorist in Iraq are the invaders and occupiers of that nation.

Our president doesn't give a rats about the people, now the corruption is even reaching the Kurdish areas the people are opening their eyes to who is the real terror in their own government.

Sad, sad, sad.

Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Your right,
thats afghanistan, not Iraq.
Afghan was always worthy of being sorted out.
Where as Iraq has become the problem since we invaded.

there's a massive difference.

How is it any different when suicide bombing and IEDs are being using and we are still in Afghanistan since 2001, six years.

Because Afghan STRUCK you.
Iraq didnt.

Its pretty basic.

Iraq was a war of opporunity, of Greed.
They saw the chance to make money, remove an anti-American leader and ensure corporate wealth.

thats why America is losing in Iraq and suffering tragically.
because it wasnt a war for survival, or safety.
It wasnt a war that HAD to happen to ensure prosperity in the west.
It was a war of greed.
Where as alqaeda and afghan actually hit you.

how is it people still lump Iraq and Afghan together?


Marg, Spot on.
We are, by definition Terrorists.
We are anything but a humanity force bringing democracy.
The majority public want us out in Iraq, we remain.
The majority of public at HOME want us out, we remain.

there's not ONE democratic thing about this occupation.

ITS ILLEGIAL!

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Because Afghan STRUCK you.
Iraq didnt.

Its pretty basic.

Iraq was a war of opporunity, of Greed.
They saw the chance to make money, remove an anti-American leader and ensure corporate wealth.

thats why America is losing in Iraq and suffering tragically.
because it wasnt a war for survival, or safety.
It wasnt a war that HAD to happen to ensure prosperity in the west.
It was a war of greed.
Where as alqaeda and afghan actually hit you.

how is it people still lump Iraq and Afghan together?

ITS ILLEGIAL!

And people always try to compare Vietnam to Iraq as well. Now lets see both wars are long and dirty, its a guerilla warfare, similar to what we are doing currently in Afghanistan as well. Since we seem to have a justification for invading Afghanistan because Al Qaeda tends to be there, however that Al Qaeda is in dozens of different countries, pretty much not allowing all the eggs in one basket. However it seems to me that in a war where people feels that was legal and motivated, it doesn't seem like it is ending anytime soon. So in reality a war that is justified or not, we could still lose and withdraw because of increasing casualties. No such thing as decreasing the number of dead.

Remember the Battle of Mogadishu that result in the loss of lives, forcing Clinton to pull out because of the horror of seeing American lives lost? Trying to end starvation I believe.

Remember Reagan pulling the Marines out of Lebanon because of the attack on the barracks by 1 terrorist that killed 200 well trained Marines? Trying to maintain peace since the Israeil invasion of Lebanon in 82 as well as civil war between Christians and Muslims. We may feel like we are doing a good deed, but then when news of Americans losing their lives, it would seem we lose the motivation to continue, whether justified or illegal.

When were the wars in Afganistan and Iraq illegal, that gets me everytime someone says it.

As for Marg and Agit not being members of this country they may not know whats really going on.

The House and Senate (Republican and Democrats) both agreed on terms for both wars it was signed and put into motion. Simple as that. Just because the same Democrats that voted for the war, now vote against it doesn't make the War illegal.

War is War get over it
People Die it sucks, but they know that could happen while over there. You dont want a chance to die early. DO NOT SIGN UP FOR THE MILITARY!
War has been going on for Thousands of years
Remember the only time a Weapon of Mass Destruction was dropped was under a Democrat and it costs the lives of hundred of thousands of innocent Japanesse civilians.

Could anyone please explain to me what the reasoning is for our continued presence in Iraq? WMD's aren't it. Democracy isn't it. What is it?

Am I to assume that everyone still believes that this is a mission of democracy building? If so, then my friends, you're all far more naive than I thought. How can anyone see what's going on over there, and at the same time tell me, and everyone else, that we're there to install a democracy? When the Iraqi Parliament that WE helped to put there no longer wants us there, that should tell us something, shouldn't it?

Between that, mounting casualties, and public opinion swaying against the war, the only logical choice is to pull out. No one's explained to me why it is that we also claim that we're over there to prevent the terrorists from coming here, and yet we allow them to cross the southern border to our country without so much as a "can I see you're ID?"

What kind of a war do we think we're fighting, when we can't even prevent our homeland from being attacked? To me, this single glaring point tears down anyone else's reasons for the current war effort. We need to be focusing on home, as that's where the troops have to come back to when they're done. If terrorists attack us while they're all over there fighting, what will they have to come back to?

Are those of us that are in opposition to our continued presence there going to be vindicated? I'd much rather not be right in that case, as that would be far worse than the alternative that I can see... we need to bring them home so that we can protect ourselves from another attack. It's as simple as that.

To try to complicate it any further would serve only to try to derail the conversation off into a moral debate, when as far as I'm concerned, the moral thing to do would be to stay here and make sure we're ok before going to some foreign country and waging a war there, for nothing more than corporate interests. Oh, and "democracy building".

TheBorg

[Edited for spelling.]

[edit on 17-5-2007 by TheBorg]

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Because Afghan STRUCK you.

Well that's debatable in itself.

(Sorry had to point that out)

Originally posted by KonigKaos
The House and Senate (Republican and Democrats) both agreed on terms for both wars it was signed and put into motion. Simple as that. Just because the same Democrats that voted for the war, now vote against it doesn't make the War illegal.

Since when does YOUR government approving war, make it LEGAL on the world stage?

Hitlers government approved the invasion of Poland, France, Holland, Belgium, Russia...

was that legal?

Originally posted by thebox

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Because Afghan STRUCK you.

Well that's debatable in itself.

(Sorry had to point that out)

It Is, your right.
But I beleive there was a real threat in the taliban, and osama's followers.
Cole, Beirut, the buddah statues, and the northern alliance...

Osama and co really did have plans to fly planes into buildings..
way back from yousefs days.

In comparison to Iraq, Afghan was the proper hit.

Well put borg, the only reasons we have for being there, are the ones we are fed by the government.

If this were a TRUE democracy, and the people really did make the decisions... we'd be out of Iraq.

The only people who want a military presence in Iraq is the Bush administration.

that should put up all the red flags immediately.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
But I beleive there was a real threat in the taliban, and osama's followers.
Cole, Beirut, the buddah statues, and the northern alliance...

Osama and co really did have plans to fly planes into buildings..
way back from yousefs days.

In comparison to Iraq, Afghan was the proper hit.

And what of Bin Laden's 'professional' relationship with the Bush family? Was/Is that a fabrication?

(My apologies for sidetracking the thread here)

No, im sure there was.
Not with Osama himself, but with BinLaden relatives definately.
Its a big bloody family.

I dont think its a co-incidence, but I dont think its directly related.

Alot of the Bush roads drive through Saudi Arabia,
And that just happens to be where Osama's family came from.

I do not think Bush and Osama were directly connected in anways, just through people.


BinLaden isnt the mastermind, its Alzwahiri.

Grab a documentary called ' Power of nightmares '
It goes into great detail about the BEGININGS of radical islam.
Has some EXCELLENT footage of Zawahiri when he was young, locked up in egypt.
The hatred for the west began with that man, in the egyptian prisons.

Osama was merely a host, someone who held stature with radicals and whom had money.
Its the US whom has put him on a pedistol for all muslims to love.

He was one of hundreds arrested following the assassination of Anwar Sadat, but the Egyptian government was unable to prove any connection between al-Zawahiri and the assassination and he was released after serving jail time for illegal arms possession.

www.zmong-afghanistan.com...

This is where radical islam started against the west. Hang with me 2 tics, ill grab the name of the other man.. im chucking the docco on now.

[edit on 17-5-2007 by Agit8dChop]

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
No, im sure there was.
Not with Osama himself, but with BinLaden relatives definately.
Its a big bloody family.

I dont think its a co-incidence, but I dont think its directly related.

Alot of the Bush roads drive through Saudi Arabia,
And that just happens to be where Osama's family came from.

I do not think Bush and Osama were directly connected in anways, just through people.

I'm pretty sure it was grandpappa (Prescott) Bush who had been in cahoots with the Bin Laden family. Thanks for the info.

Sayed Qutub

Thats where it all began.
He came to the US to Colorado in 1949,
Hated what the west was becoming, went back to egypt and started radical islam.
this led to President nasser assination, the imprisonment of Zawahiri and Qutub, the TORTURE and the begings of Anti-Western Sentiments.

en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 17-5-2007 by Agit8dChop]

[edit on 17-5-2007 by Agit8dChop]