Freemasonry, Templars, the New World, and Celts.

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Not disinfo, you simply disagree.

I have noticed that around here if you agree with someone you are " Denying Ignorance" and if you disagree you are a "Disinfo Agent"

So many here have preconcieved ideas that they cling to in spite of any evidence or reason. Ignorance is the inability or lack of desire to find out what is truth in spite of what one believes.

Wu Kung:

My friends, keep in mind, that right or wrong, correct or incorrect, history is written by the winners.

And I do not profess to be telling the truth, just trying to bring about another perspective, backing it with historic evidence to show that it is indeed 100% POSSIBLE and maybe even PROBABLE.

As I have told you a few days ago, there was something missing in my thread here. Perhaps you summed what I was trying to say all along.

History IS written by the winners, not the looser, and those who lost are thrown into the dark corners of the historic world and often cast in unjust light..

I believe Masonic history, as well as the history of the founding of our nation, the persecutions in Europe and other acts attributed to the Mother Church and the Royalties of Europe, effectively dismantled our historic past.

Evidence is left in architecture, books, legends and myth. It is then up to us to cast aside our own difference and think of possibilities that are both rational and possible, and to apply that to what we know for certain, and maybe perhaps then we will be just one step closer to knowing as much of the truth as one could possibly know.

Remember, that reaching back into antiquity, the vast majority could not read or write, so those who actually recorded history had the power to change the perception of events, and in doing so, re-write the past (which in turn, alters the present and all potential futures.)

In which is evident even within the Mother Church, that when the Church operated it was in a language no one knew, the book no one could read, it was the people who where Dependant on the infrastructure of a super powerful political organization to tell them the truth without manipulation and exploitation.

So much of our history is corrupted to better suit the needs of the one who directs the flow of information.

Kilgore:

If studying a subject I like to take at least three works from different perspectives, victor, loser and somewhere in between.

If you can find such sources, however, if you go so far as to find so many sources, you will then have to take into consideration that each view is flawed in the vary fact that each source 1. has an agenda and 2. is the perspective of themselves, and typically biased. Even the looser will say the victor was unjust in waging war, when the looser may have provoked it, and while the outside view will always lean one way or the other, typically against the victor.

Rockpuck raises some interesting points but he so obviously is researching from his own viewpoint rather than following the events as they happened.

As stated I do not profess to tell the "truth" just a hypothesis. It is based on my own view points, and it is based on my own knowledge of specific cultures. Some one who studies French or English history will probably tell you a different course of events, however I study Gaelic cultures, and can only apply that to what I know to this given hypothesis.

It is however possible and probable, there is just as much evidence to support the claim as there is to deny the claim, and with that I am content to say that because it is at least backed by some degree of historic evidence, it should be considered. At least considered in the manor in which people can look at something and understand that there are many, many other possibilities then those that are preached as absolute facts.

RWPBR:

I have noticed that around here if you agree with someone you are " Denying Ignorance" and if you disagree you are a "Disinfo Agent"

Basically coming down to if you don't conform to their narrow views, you cannot be excepted, and you are expected to conform to everyones views but your own.

Ignorance is the inability or lack of desire to find out what is truth in spite of what one believes.

Exactly. The definition should be on the ATS home page.

ok the disinfo remark was perhaps too much too soon, but when you bellyache that history is lost to antiquity and the victors write the history books, I'm sorry that just doesn't work when describing the founding of the U.S.A. 1776 isn't antiquity and I am pretty sure WE WON. Why then is almost all mention of Masonic membership by the "fathers" non-existent as well as Masonic virtues that were so "influential" in the creation of our great country? Architectural clues to our history, you bet. Walk around D.C. a bit. My point is Masonic Influence has been left out on purpose due to a CONSPIRACY of silence. My question is why??..if so good...

And I would disagree 100%

Masons are very proud (at least should be) of there presence and influence in the founding of the United States.

Among Masons and from Masons to "public" it is accepted and discussed.

It is the government and the publishers and the general education system that leaves it out.

If anything, the Christian movements of the United States, "Great Awakenings" if you will, would have wiped the mention of Masons clear off the slate, as among Christian activist groups, anything Masonic was not generally accepted. We are not so much in the dark willfully as forcefully pushed there.

I should also add that our nations founding where Christian in nature, and because of that, it obviously went against anything that resembled Masonic or Templar involvement, Columbus however was a Christian, so we put him in a light of glory even though he was a disgusting man who raped, pillaged and enslaved those he came across.

If anything, the Christian movements of the United States, "Great Awakenings" if you will, would have wiped the mention of Masons clear off the slate, as among Christian activist groups, anything Masonic was not generally accepted. We are not so much in the dark willfully as forcefully pushed there.

So are you saying that Christians founded the country or Masons or both then the Masons were written out?

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[edit on 22/5/07 by masqua]

"RockPuck",

Congradulations on the work you've done.

I am in contact with a man in Canada who has written a book and is continuing research on the Masons. I am dwarfed by his knowledge, and simply want to learn all I can and help him with his research. Would you be open to communicating with me, and sharing with him?

Fifth horseman

So are you saying that Christians founded the country or Masons or both then the Masons were written out?

Both, including Christian Masons. In the end, either the over all Christian view of Masonry and the events of the founding deemed the Masonic affiliation of prominent members to be a "scar" on our history, or they blocked them out as Masons, but kept them as active Christians to make it seem more.. I don't know.

Romantic.

Raven Wolf:

This man wouldn't happen to go by the name William F. Mann?

Contact me U2U if you would like, we could talk further on it in private if you wish.

Thank you. I will.

And, no. His name is Darrin Starchuck.

Ok...it may be a while before I can message you. I had a nice long message typed out, and then was told I have to have 20 posts to be Allowed to send someone a message here..... Go figure...

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Fifth horseman

So are you saying that Christians founded the country or Masons or both then the Masons were written out?

Both, including Christian Masons. In the end, either the over all Christian view of Masonry and the events of the founding deemed the Masonic affiliation of prominent members to be a "scar" on our history, or they blocked them out as Masons, but kept them as active Christians to make it seem more.. I don't know.

Romantic.

Raven Wolf:

This man wouldn't happen to go by the name William F. Mann?

Contact me U2U if you would like, we could talk further on it in private if you wish.

Rocky, I think you overestimate the scorn mainstream Christianity has for Masonry. I was told by a high (32nd Degree, I think) Mason in my area (Chattanooga) that the Southern Baptist Convention decided a few years
back to do a study on Masonry because they felt they knew too little about it.
The principal findings of the study were that:
1. Masonry is not a religion.
2. Masonry is not immoral.
3. Masonry has either a neutral or positive effect an a person's practice of the Christian faith, depending on the person.

Because of these findings, they decided to adopt a position of neutrality towards Masonry.

Uberarcanist:

I was told by a high (32nd Degree, I think)

You can become a 32nd in 1-2 days?

decided a few years
back to do a study on Masonry because they felt they knew too little about it.
The principal findings of the study were that:
1. Masonry is not a religion.
2. Masonry is not immoral.
3. Masonry has either a neutral or positive effect an a person's practice of the Christian faith, depending on the person.

Because of these findings, they decided to adopt a position of neutrality towards Masonry.

Took them up until a few years back?

I am talking late 1700's

And they still choose "neutrality"

I know 2 Baptist ministers that are Masons *shrug* and from what one has told me, if he told his congregation he was a Mason, he would probably have to leave.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Wu Kung:

My friends, keep in mind, that right or wrong, correct or incorrect, history is written by the winners.

And I do not profess to be telling the truth, just trying to bring about another perspective, backing it with historic evidence to show that it is indeed 100% POSSIBLE and maybe even PROBABLE.

As I have told you a few days ago, there was something missing in my thread here. Perhaps you summed what I was trying to say all along.

Young Brother, all I was trying to do, is back up your research.
Your perspective is supported by exhausting research, no doubt, and you have quite a bit to show for it.
You've done very well, Young Brother, and I applaud you for it.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
You can become a 32nd in 1-2 days?

Sure you can.
From what I've been told, you go through a series of classes over the course of a few days and make your way through the degrees at the conclusion of each class.

I have heard that the Royal Arch is similar, with the same amount of work, but not as many degrees.
I'm still doing my best to best familiarize myself with the workings of the Symbolic (Blue) Lodge before I go on to any of the concordant bodies.

I shall return to my question and answer thread and report any of my further findings.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
No other comments? Really?

*sigh*

Well..........I read this whole thread, you seem to be quite the scholar Rockpuck. I don't know a lot about the Freemasons, just stuff I have heard and read. Here goes:

I have heard the Knights Templar is controlled by the Jews and that most banks are owned by Jews.
I thought Freemasons were tied to Christianity or something?? What kind of churches do you have?? Are they called anything in particular? For example, you have Baptist, Church of Christ, Methodist.
I never have understood the whole "secrecy" with Freemasons, Knights Templar, Eastern Star.........I have always understood they are good people with good hearts who try to do good things for others. The secrecy part of it bothers me.
I have been in and out of churches my whole life, I am NO scholar on religion, I was fortunate enough to have the basic principles laid down for me from Day 1. I am conflicted about certain religions as I am a Jew by blood (my mothers mother), yet I was raised Methodist then Church of Christ in most of my youth. my mother taught us Judaism..........but for the most part we were brought up in Christian churches for lack of other places to worship.
What do you think about the new Non-Denomination type churches?? I recently joined one and am really creeped out by the messages they have sent and now the obvious deception they have worked when I have questioned them about certain things. It has been a major disappointment to go back to faith, then have these people screw with your head at a time you need it the least.
What bothers me most about organized religion is you almost can't trust some of them anymore.........they are more interested in extorting money from you than actually helping their brothers who are struggling and in pain. It seems to me that money is the bottom line for everyone anymore. My quest has always been for truth and justice and there always seems to be a big price-tag attached to it.

Anyway, all of this is quite interesting.

Jillian,

The best thing you can do for yourself right now is to educate yourself. Will it be hard? Yes. Is it worth it? Without a doubt. I was also raised Methodist. Then I "woke up" and have started to think for myself. Do not believe what someone else tells you to believe. The journey of your soul is too valuable to trust to someone else. You are an intelligent woman. Educate yourself on the Truth. The Real Truth about what's going on. And, remember this one simple fact, which can be more help than anything else....... Nothing is Black and White.

Young Brother, all I was trying to do, is back up your research.
Your perspective is supported by exhausting research, no doubt, and you have quite a bit to show for it.
You've done very well, Young Brother, and I applaud you for it.

Wu Kung I was not in any way implying you where not. I think I came off FAR stronger then intended, because I meant no strength at all.

and I applaud you for it.

Thank you Wu Kung.

Sure you can.
From what I've been told, you go through a series of classes over the course of a few days and make your way through the degrees at the conclusion of each class.

I meant that in a sarcastic way, not actually asking a question

Jillian

I have heard the Knights Templar is controlled by the Jews and that most banks are owned by Jews.

Firstly, no, the Templar where not Jewish, they where Christians, they just didn't get along with the Church because the Church liked to have its hands in everyones business.

Secondly, hatred of Jews is not new, its one of the oldest traditional hatreds in the world. It stems from many things, mostly religious intolerance and jealousy because Jews tend to do well for themselves (but not the "majority")

I thought Freemasons were tied to Christianity or something?? What kind of churches do you have?? Are they called anything in particular? For example, you have Baptist, Church of Christ, Methodist.

They where excepted as what we would call today a religious militia.

They served Christians in rout tot he holly lands, for war, and engaged in war. Of course, thats what they claimed. Either way, when a Papal Bull was ordered, the Templar for the most part went where the Pope asked, but not all the times, especially in their later years.

"we" have no churches, Masonry is not a Christian organization, and has no ties to any religion what so ever. It is a school of thought, a way of life and a philosophy. Or a dinner club.

We meet in temples, and they vary greatly from huge magnificent structures to your simplest 2 room lodges.

I never have understood the whole "secrecy" with Freemasons, Knights Templar, Eastern Star

Not so much "secret" as it is "lack of open information" .. if you want to know the "real" Freemasonry, information is easy to come by if you know HOW to look -- NWO, Illuminati would not be in your search inputs.

The secrecy part of it bothers me.

Churches, Christian, especially the Mother Church, has far.. far... far darker secrets (and open acts) against humanity then Masonry could ever compete with.

"Secrecy" is the wrong word anyways "organization with secrets".. I call it privacy. Why should the whole world be allowed to watch everything, know everything? ...... defeats the purpose of being initiated doesn't it?

And so long as your a generally nice guy without a criminal record, you get in. How secret.

I am conflicted about certain religions as I am a Jew by blood (my mothers mother), yet I was raised Methodist then Church of Christ in most of my youth. my mother taught us Judaism

theologies are very interesting to read on if not study. Especially a religion as rich in history as Judaism, I would study your roots.

I will not go into my disdain for most protestant churches, fear mongering degenerates of the Mother Church, in the end it is your self that will decide what is "right for you"

What do you think about the new Non-Denomination type churches?? I recently joined one and am really creeped out by the messages they have sent and now the obvious deception they have worked when I have questioned them about certain things.

Another thread another place for my own views on "non-denomination" churches, start a thread and I will give you a lengthy answer.

However, I will say this. Non-denominations more closely resembled make shift and rather crudley put together cults of baseless, foundation less, beliefs. Most are taken out of context, most highlight specific parts to highlight their own specific agendas, and most importantly, each one highlights one mans personal beliefs and desire to 1. push it upon others and 2. garnish the wealth, power and popularity that comes with it.

Hell the televangelists that tells people Jesus wants everyone to be financially wealthy, has MILLIONS of members.

The degeneration of religion. See there I go rambling, start a thread and I am sure many people will give you many answers.

then have these people screw with your head at a time you need it the least.

And yet when your most vulnerable. You become their prey.

extorting money

i would say 75% of all churches are founded to make the founders rich. And oh they do get rich.

My quest has always been for truth and justice and there always seems to be a big price-tag attached to it

The teachings of Christianity are best to be considered a philosophy, a way of living, instead of religion -- as pointed out in my thread.

Religion is the blanket faith of a group of people that all should be expected to follow. Yet not any two people will ever truly believe the same thing.

The basics of Christianity as I see it are

Self sacrifice, to give everything you can possibly give, even your life, to those close to you, to the underprivileged, to those who cannot fight, for your friends.

To be a good person, without expecting return, to give what you can to make the lives of those around you better, if not in material fashion, then in spiritual ways through simply being a nice person.

Opening the door for someone, saying please and thank you, helping someone who asks for help, and often when they don't, or can't, and looking past other peoples differences and accepting their beliefs as their god given right of free will. This is and many, countless other ways, the way to true happiness, to true enlightenment, and betterment of your own personal soul.

This is, imo, most of what Christianity tries to teach us, as countless religions and philosophies have, the message is ALWAYS the same, being a good person unconditionally. It is for these reasons, my personal reasons, that I wear a cross around my neck, even though I do not subscribe to being called "Christian"..

Why do you need another human as clueless as you are to tell you how live, act and BELIEVE .. it is your God given right to believe as you wish through your own personal self experiences and enlightenment.

Originally posted by RavenWolf
Jillian,

The best thing you can do for yourself right now is to educate yourself. Will it be hard? Yes. Is it worth it? Without a doubt.

...... Nothing is Black and White.

Tell that to the people I work for.

[edit on 22-5-2007 by Jillian_Bacardi]

I thought Freemasons were tied to Christianity or something?? What kind of churches do you have?? Are they called anything in particular? For example, you have Baptist, Church of Christ, Methodist.

They where excepted as what we would call today a religious militia.

They served Christians in rout tot he holly lands, for war, and engaged in war. Of course, thats what they claimed. Either way, when a Papal Bull was ordered, the Templar for the most part went where the Pope asked, but not all the times, especially in their later years.

"we" have no churches, Masonry is not a Christian organization, and has no ties to any religion what so ever. It is a school of thought, a way of life and a philosophy. Or a dinner club.

We meet in temples, and they vary greatly from huge magnificent structures to your simplest 2 room lodges.

I never have understood the whole "secrecy" with Freemasons, Knights Templar, Eastern Star

Not so much "secret" as it is "lack of open information" .. if you want to know the "real" Freemasonry, information is easy to come by if you know HOW to look -- NWO, Illuminati would not be in your search inputs.

The secrecy part of it bothers me.

Churches, Christian, especially the Mother Church, has far.. far... far darker secrets (and open acts) against humanity then Masonry could ever compete with.

"Secrecy" is the wrong word anyways "organization with secrets".. I call it privacy. Why should the whole world be allowed to watch everything, know everything? ...... defeats the purpose of being initiated doesn't it?

And so long as your a generally nice guy without a criminal record, you get in. How secret.

Ok, I see what you are saying about secrecy vs privacy......especially in this day and age with all the creeps out there trying to control us. See...........I have known people who are Masons and they are really decent people. My old neighbor was an Eastern Star and one of the best people in the world. Every time I would try to ask her about it she didn't talk much, but she was faithful about going to all her meetings.

I am a generally nice person but the problem is I had a false criminal charge for online harassment and another criminal burglary charge forged against me by some people online. Then they posted my FALSE criminal record with all my vital stats all over the internet. It has lead to one of the worst/stupidest conspiracys I have ever seen in my life.

I would never be able to get in Eastern Star. Why do they seperate Eastern Star from the Masons?

Thanks for answering my questions, I will try to think of a good thread to start about the Non-Denomination church I was going to and have decided to quit going to because they know more about my case than they are willing to talk to me about so I am finished with them.






[edit on 22-5-2007 by Jillian_Bacardi]

[edit on 22-5-2007 by Jillian_Bacardi]

reply to post by Rockpuck


America is a continent, not a country. This make Colombus the first european to reach/settle America, which got its' name from Amerigo, a catographer who came later into the scene.