Freemasonry, Templars, the New World, and Celts.

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
I fail to see the love of our current elites and freemasons for all people celtic though. I mean they raped Ireland on several occasions did they not? Even to this day they turn against their celtic brothers in the pursuit of money and power by putting the immigrant in place of struggle with him for their own selfish gain.

Kolomvous was Jewish also.

Name one ethnicity that has not experienced these problems.

This map, called the Piri Re’Is Map, was done in the early 1400’s by a Turk.


External Source

The Piri Re'is map was found in 1929 in the Imperial Palace in Constantinople. It is painted on parchment and dated 919 A.H. (in the Islamic calendar), which corresponds to 1513 AD. It is signed by an admiral of the Turkish Navy named Piri Ibn Haji Memmed, also known as Piri Re'is. According to Piri Re'is, the map had been assembled from a set of 20 maps drawn in the time of Alexander the Great.

You say early 1400s but it says 1503... If it was made in 1503 its not all that impressive. Am I missing something?

You say early 1400s but it says 1503... If it was made in 1503 its not all that impressive. Am I missing something?

My apologies, that was a typo, meant early 1500's not 1400's

The map's text is actually an account of one Spaniard that went with Colombo to the New World...

However, the map its self was not taken from his accounts, he is simply using his map, then pointing out areas where Colombo's events happened...

For instance, the map details Antarctica as being "a wasteland, in ruins with giant snakes" ......... Columbus did not go to Antarctica? .. And no one was supposed to know it existed? .. Not to mention Columbus never went around South America, no one had by 1503. Columbus only ever "found" the New World (just the Carabean islands) in 1492.

Uberarcanist:

I feel that I overstated my Atlantis hypothesis, claiming it to be a fact (I believe that it is probably true but can't prove it, yet), when it is a hypothesis, albeit a strong one.

not overstated, there is no "solid" history.. in fact, we know very little about ANY ancient civilization, all that we know is pure speculation based on given information... so it is amazing that so many "scholars" do not recognize when someone may "change history" by finding new connections because it is not "fact" when the "original mainstream history" is neither..

All hypothesis have the same ground with each other, so long as you can show the connection and give consideration to some amount of proof, essentially showing a way it is possible.



[edit on 5/18/2007 by Rockpuck]

I can grasp everything else but this map really throws me off. To me it looks like India at the top right because of the turban guy, meditating guy, and elephant. But then there is an ostrich? The left side looks like it could be South America because of the parrots and monkeys, but nothing 'amazingly accurate'. Is the bottom supposed to be Antarctica? Why would they think there were snakes there? Im confuzzed . I think I will just ignore that part

Originally posted by Mushroom Fields Forever
I can grasp everything else but this map really throws me off. To me it looks like India at the top right because of the turban guy, meditating guy, and elephant. But then there is an ostrich? The left side looks like it could be South America because of the parrots and monkeys, but nothing 'amazingly accurate'. Is the bottom supposed to be Antarctica? Why would they think there were snakes there? Im confuzzed

. I think I will just ignore that part

Well, ah, maybe there were snakes when they visited! Furthermore, sometimes mapmakers would have accurate coastlines of continents, as appears here, but would not have the foggiest idea about the actual characteristics of the continents and in such cases would just make crazy stuff up.

Part III….

Long hard week of work, sorry it’s taken so long to get this done.. collecting my thoughts here…

Freemasonry… it is countless things to countless people.. no one has that surely defined “this is Masonry” or even “this is where Masonry came from, and why” ….. and when your absolutely sure about some of your thoughts, typically something new comes along and knocks it to pieces.. Being a Mason is a constant search for answers, and the answers are hard to come by, and ever changing. It is, in a sense, a constant pursuit for the truth. If you are not a Freemason, you would not understand this, because your not one of us. The search is of course a personal journey for each brother, and the answers they seek vary, but I think one thing we all have in common, for us who search the truth, who are looking for.. home?

Where did we come from, why did we evolve, what event brought about the rise of Masonry, how far back do we go, who started it, where we Templar? Where we a gentlemen’s club? A bar group who simply grew in size? Renegade pagans?

We all look for one thing, a route to our roots.

The Templar went to the New World, in theory of course, I would say, to escape persecution, and to be able to build an empire based upon their own standards and beliefs..

It was not that the Templar where being killed in vast numbers or anything like that, I believe that they lived in relative peace in Scotland. When they arrived, they aided Robert the Bruce the King of Scotland in battle against the English.. while this cannot be confirmed absolutely fact.. put it this way. The Scots where engaged in battle with a fresh and over whelming English army.. the English where winning the battle when out of no where a full army marched from the woods, across the field, carrying no banner what so ever, full on attacked the English army aiding the Scots, and this mystic army was so advanced and skilled that within hours the English would be crushed and routed from the field, literally giving Scotland many more decades of peace without fearing the English as their best soldiers where decimated in a match they started 2 to 1 and ended up loosing.

This army, then vanished. Supposedly. It is far more likely that Robert the Bruce allowed the Templar safe haven within his realms, to use his ports, to establish their own ports and cities, and so long as they maintained peace and aided the Scottish Crown when in need, they could live undisturbed.

Of course, modern historians and your history books in school would have told you that Robert the Bruce had reserves from the north. He didn’t. Some would say that because they had no banner and no identity and then seemingly vanished, that they where peasants that went to their seemingly death to aid their land (how romantic) .. ever hear of peasants destroying one of the largest and most powerful armies in all the European world? Me either.

So the Templar had a safe haven apparently.. their navy escaped for the most part unscaved and also seemingly vanished, though most believe that they fled to Scotland, Ireland or Scandinavia. A period of piracy under the “jolly roger” flag went underway effecting French and British trade.

This haven in Scotland, the protection they needed, I believe is what gave rise then to Masonry..

The Templar did not lay their weapons down and simply start attending meetings and the like.. they most likely continued on military operations and more likely, militaristic trading – a navy / commercial fleet.. possibly trading from the New World, but there is significant evidence through dock records and the like, that a fleet of ships under “no flag” in the Scotland region attacked pirates and opened up trade between Scotland and Scandinavian people.. bringing with it a measurable level of prosperity for both sides..

This is the basis of Templar life, after persecution anyways… they where not friends with the Catholic Church before or after, by any means, and there is large proof that the Templar became middle men in peace making operations between European nations… but get this, also Middle Eastern countries.. their enemy? Many Templar it seems in their fortifications studied Islam, studied Judaism, studied Christianity, but I honestly think there was a level of “liberalization” if you will..

It took another level when the Templar of France may have been involved with the Cathar movement of Southern France and Northern Spain..

When the Church declared them Heritics and ordered them executed, the genocide that followed was not looked on kindly by the Templar.. and while they aided the Crown of France and the Pope to an extant, the leadership maintained a level of support for the Catharist and declared neutrality. Odd that a group of supposed “Christians” would not support the decimation of “pagans” …

A Cathar is a Gnostic faith

Cathars in general formed an anti-sacerdotal party in opposition to the Catholic Church, and raised a continued protest against the claimed moral, spiritual and political corruption of the Catholic Church. They claimed an Apostolic Connection to the early founders of Christianity and saw Rome as having betrayed and corrupted the original purity of the message. Cathar Elders, called Perfecti or Parfaits as in Perfect or Complete Heretics by the Catholic Church and known to themselves, their followers and their co-citizens as "Bons Hommes" and "Bonnes Femmes" or "Bons Chrétiens", literally "Good Men/Women" or "Good Christians", were few in number; the mass of Believers (Credentes) were not initiated into the deeper doctrines and were not expected to adopt the ascetic lifestyles practiced by the Elders.

Catharism

The Pope demanded that this heretical sect be destroyed, and demanded of the French King to attack much of Southern France to wipe clean these “evil” people who dare defy Gods Will on Earth the Mother Church.

The King refused, for obvious reasons, it would be civil war! .. Catharism had been around for a while by this point, and was growing in popularity. The Pope then declared a Crusade against the South of France, the Kingdom of Aragon and much of northern Spain…

It was, essentially a civil war, the North of France attacked the South of France, the land taken from the Cathar Nobles of the South where given to the Nobles of the North… and the Templar, who where very numerous in both the North and South refused to act..

I think, that the Templar picked up much of the Cathar movement, especially those in France.. the French Templar where slowly coming separated form the Mother Churches religion and the suppression it put on people, they where in opposition with the Church on seemingly everything unless it benefited themselves in some way..

There would have no doubt been many “Pure” Catharistic Templar Knights, with so many living in the South of France.. in the attack, they would have been aided by other Knights to escape the genocide to the North of France…

This is important because it was the Knights of France that made it to Scotland, in theory, they may have taken their ideas with them..

There where many different Gnostic movements in Europe during this time period, the Cathars being the most numerous thus gaining such attention..

They most likely originated from Bulgaria, Eastern Europe, possibly Albania region and into the Byzantine Empire, bringing with them all kinds of ideas..

When the Templar where expelled form France, and made their northern haven of Scotland their new home.. the people would have been far more isolated in the sense they where not in the busy nations of mainland Europe.. their lives would have been less and less military, and more and more scholarly..

I think that within Templar Knighthood developed this, mixture.. combination, hybrid religion of sorts.. of Catharistic style ideas.. mixed with Gaelic folk lore, Gaelic religion, Judaism and a little bit of Christianity..

The difference that actually may have saved the Templar, was that it did not become a “religion” but instead a Philosophy, a school of thought. “Freemasonry” was most likely given its name through some kind of meaning in relation to the core beliefs of this new school of thought. A “building” of ones soul so to speak, which was a core belief in Catharism as well, that one builds their life to the best of their ability in hopes of a better life afterwards, but they subscribed to no particular god……

Which also may have saved them.

If you have no “god” to fight for, or at least, not all the members believed in the SAME god of the SAME definition, they could not form armies to fight for one “cause” so to speak, they essentially wanted to be everything the Mother church was not! .. They did not want to become the prosecutors that prosecuted them!.. They subscribed to no dogma, only to do good.. that is a similarity seen throughout all known Masonic connections, that their essential “beliefs” have changed little since their foundings..

This then goes back to the Templar trying to get to the New World.. they probably wanted to establish a fully functioning village of sorts..

To give rise to a new nation…

But they most likely failed at their attempts, the English had a hell of a time establishing their first settlements, and they had the backing of an entire Empire, the Knights may have gotten little to no funding from their host, if they lost contact, by the time some supplies could be mustered, they where probably long dead…

So the plan would have been scrapped and those who witnessed this would been severally broken hearted, because the Templar may have, like the Welshmen who left their homeland, wanted to be in a place where one could be free to do as they wish, to believe as they wish, the escape tyranny and the oppression of the Mother Church…

In the failure of the New World settlements, this imo would have been the last straw for the Templar, some time in the late 1400’s-1500’s the Templar would have lost a purpose, and their numbers dwindling to the point where they where none existent..

However, in Scotland, as secure as one could be from the Church, their ideas would have flourished among the Gaelic religions and local lore’s and the pseudo Christianity that operated in Scotland, Freemasonry was born, long before this, imo, but is the only thing that survived of its Templar past.

While they where once the same thing, one just a branch growing slowly away from the other, once the main branch died off, the branch of Masonry would have been fully functional.. and so much of Templar history and.. perhaps their attempts are now preserved, to this vary day, in our rituals.

Think about it this way.. Masonry is a journey, and it is this journey that binds all Masons as brothers of the Craft. We have all gone through the same trials and tribulations of the three degrees of Masonry….

Think about this, pure speculation, tossing around ideas here.. without, out of respect and oath, talking about the actual degrees.

Masonry is the symbolic reference to the Knights Templar trying to make their way to the New World.. to make the hard journey to protect their own people who believed that all it took to be a good man was to act as such, not to subscribe to dogma and cannon law, but instead to spiritually find ones self. The Templar’s journey would have been one of sacrificing everything for the chance to have a life with out persecution from oppressive sources, to live out the glory of god without corrupt men dictating what god is to you.. the journey of protecting the basic and fundamental human rights that where god given to all men, but suppressed by men.

Strict, very, very strict methods where put in place to ensure the “message” never changed, from its creation to the present day, to ensure that the craft changes as little as possible. Which is why we have inspections, which is why we try our best to get everything dead on with degree work, and why we have not even altered the language to modern terms.

The Constitution, laws and edicts of the Grand lodge

This actually ensure that a lodge does not go rouge, and individual “ideas” or “interpretations” do not vary and loose the original message.. and warp into a religion, warp into something evil, something.. like the Church..

Religion is a disease spread among men to control men, nothing more, nothing less. While someone can always claim to be doing the will of god, so often in human history has the will of god been to rape and pillage, slaughter and burn, commit genocide and oppress peoples of differencing views, to through the weight of the strongest force on Earth upon villagers as in the Catharist of France, or the other sister faiths of Islam. God’s will to a religion, any religion, be it Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and so forth, is always the will of men.

Where the Templar’s last stance was a give all and fail attempt to live out a dream of freedom, the Freemasons carried on the traditions that where held by those Scottish Knight Templar. And where they failed militarily, I believe, much like the IRA has recently, dropped the arm of military and used diplomacy, and used politics to bring about the dream their ancestors once had, and that they carry on.

The United States was Masonic involved, no one can deny that. It was not entirely done so by Masons, because many of the delegates where not Masons at all… but one does not have to be a Mason to understand the message it carries..

Masonry may have sparked a level of ideology among many men who had no idea it was even Masonic. The vary principles of Democracy are Masonic and so many ways, the idea born with a large group of Masons among delegates, most of the front runners actually being Masons, such as George Washington, Franklin, possibly Jefferson..

The foundation of America, was, imo, Masons officially starting or at least assisting in what they believed in, which may have been the vary principles of the last Templar. I am not saying that they may have known Templar Knights wanted exactly what they founded, or as close as possible, the messages of Masonry where clearly put into the frame work of the United States..

Now, it was aided in construction by Masons, and used Masonic “ideology” as its roots .. but it was not designed to be run by Masons, but instead the people.. because all people deserved to be free, not just Masons, they did not want to be like their oppressors, thus Democracy was born.

Like all institutions born through men, operated by men, maintained by men.. it was corrupted, it was altered, it has mutated far from its “original” form, the principle is the same, but the government simply is not the same..

So many say the NWO is a “Masonic conspiracy” when the entire notion of what it stands for goes 110% against our beliefs.. if anything, the Masons would work against it, the current United States is not the result of Masonry, but rather the undoing of Masonic morals within the ideas of a populace run government..

An experiment gone well, but an experiment nonetheless, it may have to be dismantled and altered, but our forefathers expected as much. To maintain freedom from oppression and the maintain personal ideologies, we must be able to sacrifice, to give everything for the slim chance at a better tomorrow, Masonic principles..

Lastly, I want to look at Roslyn Chapel, backtracking a little to the 1440’s.. evidence of a Masonic / Templar co-existent / mutation..



This is a pic, of corn apparently, there is no other explanation..

The region that is hypothesized the Templar landed, corn or maize, would have been a staple crop… it was unknown of in Europe until after Columbus.



A “Green man” .. a Gaelic folk lore protector of the woods in a way, it also represents rebirth, there are many Green Men in the chapel.. possibly a sign of Templar’s reborn in Masonry. Also, I believe this is evidence of Gaelic religion mixing with Judaic, Gnostic, Christian, Catharistic faiths to create the ultimate philosophy.



Said to be the “most Masonic” pillar, in legend its creator was killed by his master in a fit of rage.. not exactly sure about the story, I had heard someone explain it to me once.



The ceiling is covered in 5 pointed stars, possibly in reference to the star that guided them west wardly to the New World..



There are 3 pillars, exquisitely carved, 3 degrees of Masonry. The pillars are covered in Templar and Masonic symbols, as well as angels, green men, and so forth..

There is much much more symbology within the chapel…

OK I think I will stop here tonight. I will answer in full any question proposed to me, for anything that I may have missed on.

This is, of course, my personal hypothesis on .. everything, through the entire thread, and none is fact, and none should be taken as such. I do not profess to know any thing my brothers don’t, nor do I profess to be correct. It is an idea, and all ideas should be considered, no matter how out there, so long as there is a historical evidential base to them. I would prefer people do their own searching and come to their own conclusions then to take one persons word for anything, which is what history should be.. everyone constantly looking to the past to discern what is unknown, instead of take the easiest answer and saving time by accepting it.

Through understanding our history, we can understand who we are, and more importantly, how we are all connected, and maybe where we are going.

Alright, with all due respect Rocky, if you're suggesting that the Masons began with the KTs, I think you're selling us short. For an organization that is supposedly medeival only in origin, rituals and symbols of the greatest antiquity
(Hermetic corpus, pyramidism, sacred geometry, etc.) figure in so greatly that such a claim really does seem to stop woefully short of the true origins of Freemasonry. Think about it-if Bronze Age man has one thing in common (regardless of WHERE we find him in the world), it is the construction of monuments (Masonry in the purest sense of the word!) that would be impossible given their current level of technology. And what do we find at the base of all cultures but a legend of divine origin! If you ask me, all of the preceding points to the 8 million pound elephant in the room that is painfully obvious and the Masons are trying so, so, so hard to cover up (and who can blame them, after the First War, when man almost destroyed himself with alien technology, speculative, I know, but how do you explain the apparently nuclear impact sites that have been found in Bronze Age strata in various locations around the world?) just read Chariots of the Gods and any paleocontact stuff you can find on the web or elsewhere, people, it's all painfully obvious in my opinion, we're under alien rule and always have been since pretty much the dawn of civilization.

Originally posted by uberarcanist

Name one ethnicity that has not experienced these problems.

I don't see how that justifies anything though?

Secondly, there has always been agressors and aggrieved. There has always been instigators and controllers and the controlled and annoyed.

My understanding is that the Rosicrucians predate Masonry by quite some time.

The problem here is that while the secret societies do carry secrets forward for the benefit of mankind, many of its members enjoyed the fruits of the physical realm - lucifer's playground.

Originally posted by denythestatusquo

Originally posted by uberarcanist

Name one ethnicity that has not experienced these problems.

I don't see how that justifies anything though?

Secondly, there has always been agressors and aggrieved. There has always been instigators and controllers and the controlled and annoyed.

My understanding is that the Rosicrucians predate Masonry by quite some time.

The problem here is that while the secret societies do carry secrets forward for the benefit of mankind, many of its members enjoyed the fruits of the physical realm - lucifer's playground.

I'm not really sure what the point of all what you just typed was, and no, it is probably not true that the Rose Croix is older because of how old most of the traditions used by Masons are.

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
I fail to see the love of our current elites and freemasons for all people celtic though. I mean they raped Ireland on several occasions did they not? Even to this day they turn against their celtic brothers in the pursuit of money and power by putting the immigrant in place of struggle with him for their own selfish gain.

Kolomvous was Jewish also.

Hmm.. I am going to try and answer this only guessing I actually know what the question is.

I fail to see the love of our current elites and freemasons for all people celtic though.

They don't.. simple as that. Aside from that, our "current elites" are essentially anyone who makes something of them selves.... which 95% are not Masons, and not connected to Masons in any way, they got rich because of their own personal perseverance. Masonry's connections to Celtic and other sources is only a Hypothesis, we essentially run as our own identity, while many brother feel we where guilds, many that we where Templar, many that we where Egyptian, many that we where a product of the Enlightenment Age....... I am simply trying to connect the activities of the Templar, with the coming of Masonry and trying to find a "reason" for it so to speak.

I mean they raped Ireland on several occasions did they not?

They also raped Scotland or at least tried, they also raped many peoples around the world (the English) but that has absolutely nothing to do with Masonry. As for the whole "attack your brother" kind of mentality, the English are not a Celtic culture, in fact in Irish, Scottish and Welsh the name for English people is not English, its still Saxon.

Secondly, states that are "brothers" be culture or what ever, have only that one tie to each other.. before Ireland was invaded by the Spaniards, the English, the Vikings, ect, they fought between them selve (and they still do) .. the bonds of peoples around the world are so often cast aside in the hopes for glory, riches and more consolidation of power, that we often forget we are all brothers in the end.

And no one can fully explain why we do what we do to one another.. look at the American Civil War for example, the North fought the South, yet it is known before and after battles the two sides often met, traded tobaco and beer, whiskey and various supplies..... then went about fighting..

And within that, Masons have actually fought one another, then the next morning while finding the wounded, would hear a fellow Confederate or Union soldier wounded and assist them as they would their own.. this went back to the Revolution, War of 1812 and many times in European conflicts...

Basically the point is, when it comes to Masonry we are united in that we are Masons, but you have your personal pride, your personal beliefs, your personal standards if you will....

In war.. one serves his nation.

Without a tie of loyalty to your State, your government and your personal beliefs and ethics.... you are no man. When Masons fought Masons in war though, they still showed respectable compassion, regardless of their origin.

Even to this day they turn against their celtic brothers in the pursuit of money and power by putting the immigrant in place of struggle with him for their own selfish gain.

States do, no one group. Religion does. There are reasons, often deep reasons for the conflicts that go on, all over the world.. you cannot expect that because we are all connected in some way, that we will put aside our differences.. or even that we would have no differences.

Kolomvous was Jewish also.

I don't see how that justifies anything though?

Through one peoples reasoning, it is justified.

Secondly, there has always been agressors and aggrieved. There has always been instigators and controllers and the controlled and annoyed.

The strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must.

My understanding is that the Rosicrucians predate Masonry by quite some time.

The "origins" of Masonry are not known, but it is believed it was a school of philosophy, or even perhaps a "protostant" sect that broke from the Church within the Knights Templar in the 13-1400's....

Maybe earlier.

he problem here is that while the secret societies do carry secrets forward for the benefit of mankind, many of its members enjoyed the fruits of the physical realm - lucifer's playground.

No, they carry traditions that benefit their own, not nessecarilly man kind.. while Masonry may have brought about the Democratic government, still millions have died at it's hands.. but the intention was good, not ill.

Lucifer is mentioned once, within the KJV Bible.. a book so mis-translated its hardly funny. Masonry does not subscribe to Christianity, and neither do I by any means to be honest, one cannot be under the control of Satan of your Lucifer or what have you, if that is not their faith.

...and CROWN thy good with BROTHERHOOD...??? So they weren't supposed to retain control of this country's government huh?

To keep secrets from the unwashed masses IS a conspiracy (2 or more people involved)
To knowingly teach our children incorrect and corrupt history IS a conspiracy
Then to deny that there is a conspiracy when there is clearly one is a compound CONSPIRACY. The Freemasons are CONSPIRATORS.

Look, I enjoy all my freedoms and my family has fought for this country countless times. What danger is there in teaching the real history of the UNITED STATES?


[edit on 20-5-2007 by Fifth Horseman]

So they weren't supposed to retain control of this country's government huh?

There would be no benefit unless to do so publicly. Aside from that, the Democratic process works against them.

Only 14 Masons have been Presidents.

To keep secrets from the unwashed masses IS a conspiracy

Which can be good or bad, but not always a conspiracy. Often the masses are not told or are privy to the on goings of the government, as it is not their right to know.

you may think it is. But it isn't.

To knowingly teach our children incorrect and corrupt history IS a conspiracy

Yes. No. Maybe. I would put it in more lines with complete ignorance, and a lack of care for education, which this government and those around the world, have shown.

Then to deny that there is a conspiracy when there is clearly one is a compound CONSPIRACY. The Freemasons are CONSPIRATORS.

Your implying all things ill must be the result of Masonry, when it is clearly shown much of what is wrong is a decay of what was once solid and righteous principle, now corrupted by the vary actions and intentions of men themselves. Not Freemasonry. To blame Freemasonry only and to lay blame on it, is to deny the real corruptions, the real "progress" that works against the progress of man and her nations, to use it as a scapegoat is to divert the attention else where and prolong the symptoms of what is really wrong in this world.

Look, I enjoy all my freedoms and my family has fought for this country countless times. What danger is there in teaching the real history of the UNITED STATES?

There is no "danger" .. its just not accepted.. we have this vision in our heads that this is how it happened and we stick to it.. aside from that history is not viewed by the public to be necessary to know anyways, hell as a history major in college my average class size is maybe 8-12 people.


I should also add that our nations founding where Christian in nature, and because of that, it obviously went against anything that resembled Masonic or Templar involvement, Columbus however was a Christian, so we put him in a light of glory even though he was a disgusting man who raped, pillaged and enslaved those he came across.

[edit on 5/20/2007 by Rockpuck]

Originally posted by Rockpuck

So they weren't supposed to retain control of this country's government huh?

There would be no benefit unless to do so publicly. Aside from that, the Democratic process works against them.

Only 14 Masons have been Presidents.

To keep secrets from the unwashed masses IS a conspiracy

Which can be good or bad, but not always a conspiracy. Often the masses are not told or are privy to the on goings of the government, as it is not their right to know.

you may think it is. But it isn't.

To knowingly teach our children incorrect and corrupt history IS a conspiracy

Yes. No. Maybe. I would put it in more lines with complete ignorance, and a lack of care for education, which this government and those around the world, have shown.

Then to deny that there is a conspiracy when there is clearly one is a compound CONSPIRACY. The Freemasons are CONSPIRATORS.

Your implying all things ill must be the result of Masonry, when it is clearly shown much of what is wrong is a decay of what was once solid and righteous principle, now corrupted by the vary actions and intentions of men themselves. Not Freemasonry. To blame Freemasonry only and to lay blame on it, is to deny the real corruptions, the real "progress" that works against the progress of man and her nations, to use it as a scapegoat is to divert the attention else where and prolong the symptoms of what is really wrong in this world.

Look, I enjoy all my freedoms and my family has fought for this country countless times. What danger is there in teaching the real history of the UNITED STATES?

There is no "danger" .. its just not accepted.. we have this vision in our heads that this is how it happened and we stick to it.. aside from that history is not viewed by the public to be necessary to know anyways, hell as a history major in college my average class size is maybe 8-12 people.


I should also add that our nations founding where Christian in nature, and because of that, it obviously went against anything that resembled Masonic or Templar involvement, Columbus however was a Christian, so we put him in a light of glory even though he was a disgusting man who raped, pillaged and enslaved those he came across.

[edit on 5/20/2007 by Rockpuck]

[edit on 20-5-2007 by Fifth Horseman]

didn't mean to do the above long quote, one too many keystrokes!


Rockpuck , your slip slip slippin' into disinfo mode. By the people for the people and we don't need to KNOW? And fragmented history of only 200+ years is the result of scholarly apathy? Any good bridges for sale??

Originally posted by Fifth Horseman
didn't mean to do the above long quote, one too many keystrokes!


Rockpuck , your slip slip slippin' into disinfo mode. By the people for the people and we don't need to KNOW? And fragmented history of only 200+ years is the result of scholarly apathy? Any good bridges for sale??

History has been manipulated, guessed and assumed since time began. This is not the doing of any one man or men, its simply the way things go.

Not disinfo, you simply disagree.

No other comments? Really? *sigh*

My friends, keep in mind, that right or wrong, correct or incorrect, history is written by the winners.

History has a sense of being written to show certain personages and groups in a favorable or unfavorable light.

Remember, that reaching back into antiquity, the vast majority could not read or write, so those who actually recorded history had the power to change the perception of events, and in doing so, re-write the past (which in turn, alters the present and all potential futures.)


Hmmm...
now we're getting into philosophy...

Originally posted by wu kung
Hmmm...
now we're getting into philosophy...

Though I agree with you in essence and in many ways you are right when you compare it to philosophy, it does not excuse the fact that many academics have examined the information that we do have and written books on the subject. I am not about to crush youthful enthusiam, what Rockpuck has done is to be commended. He has put himself out there and that takes cahunahs. However....while information is lost through the destruction of cultures and the spoils of war - not all is lost. If you look hard there is much to find. If studying a subject I like to take at least three works from different perspectives, victor, loser and somewhere in between. The losers perspective is always hardest to find, but that is not to say it doesn't exist. There is no substitute for hard work and varied reading. History has to be balanced by all the arts.

Rockpuck raises some interesting points but he so obviously is researching from his own viewpoint rather than following the events as they happened. For example, if you read about Turk history, you will know that the Muslims are responsible for much of the preservation of the knowledge of the Greeks. This in short fully explains the origins of the information contained in the map he cites.

The victors tend to write the first histories, their's is seldom the only account and the truly inquisitive of mind will soon discover that. The classics for a start off should not be dismissed as they demonstrate myth and beliefs - the legends written up by Homer for one are a fabulous insight, Plato's Republic, Mallory's Morte D'Arthur, I could go on and on.

We can make leaps and bounds of presumption. Rockpuck has made an interesting start and I hope that he will continue to study the ideas that he has had, only with more work will they become anything more.