Proof of the Gash on WTC-7 ?

Originally posted by PartChimp
Hopefully NIST will crush the conspiracy theories with a concise report, so at least this part of the equation can be put to rest.

they are off to a piss poor start.
with the resources and brains at their disposal, they should at least have a plausible scenario drafted out. they've got nothing.

why?

because, the four corners of the outer bearing wall, went down in perfect sync in DAMN near freefall time.
logically, asymmetrical damage does not a symmetrical collapse make.
logically, a building offers more resistance to collapse than air.

theoretically, when every single broadcast channel reports the sound of explosions, as they report live from the scene, there are MOST probably explosions.
when this is also found on every emergency radio broadcast band recording, and on video recordings, and is reported by most witnesses.....etc.

of course, people are free to believe what they like.
did you know that no one 'drank the kool aid' at jonestown? eveyone was murdered by CIA controlled special forces, including an american senator and a cameraman from NBC(whose last breath was taken while pointing his camera at the gunman who shot him). despite this fact, the term, 'drink the kool aid' has come to be used to ridicule cultists. the whole reverend jones thing was CIA from the get go. a mass mind control experiment. the media covered up the coroner's report, which showed most people had needle marks behind their shoulders, where they were held down forcibly, and injected with 'kool aid'. many were simply shot.
perhaps, in the small way it failed(ie. denizens of jonestown lived in constant fear and stress, and despite intense brainwashing techniques, were still not 'mind controlled' by jones). but succeeded very well in a bigger way, by hiding a massive, evil conspiracy, and selling it to the public at large as a perfect example of 'dangerous cult', instead of the CIA controlled horrific, evil experiment it actually was.

Hey BillyBob ~

Can you please provide me with a link to some of the witnesses that stated that there were explosions prior to the collaspe.(WTC7) Also, are there actualy recordings of these explosions?

Thanks,

C F

Cameron,

If I remember correctly there were smaller spikes on the siezmographs at 15 minute intervals before the collapse of WTC 7 I believe. They call them further falling debris or something like that. But, they are at 15 minute intervals. Labtop could explain in much more detail than I can.

Thanks Griff ~

Just a thought... of all the interviews I have read from the firefighters that were on the scene (around wtc7) while they were standing around pretty much just watching...i have yet to read one interview that claims that they heard and explosions prior to the collapse. Now, if there were an event that would casue a seismic spike, I think it would be safe to assume that this event would be heard by the firefighters in that area.

Cameron,

Just a question. Do ALL of the reports from firefighters say no explosions? Or is it just the ones that the government will tell us about? I'm actually curious of this. I'm pretty sure I've heard at least one report from firefighters about explosions but I can't be sure. Thanks.

Yes there were firefighters who reported hearing and feeling explosives.

That part of the story is not being investigated by the government.

Huh and i don't think the government is doing any investigations on 911, figures.

Griff, others... the following is just some of the places where I read interviews. I will be more than happy to post the addresses (if available) the quotes and the names of the firefighters, EMS, or reporters.

www.pbs.org (america rebuilds)

www.hostedap.org

www.whatreallyhappened.com

www.911podcast.com

thememoryhole.org

NYmagazine.com

nytimes

Firehouse magazine

CBS TV reporter Vince DeMentri

Report From Ground Zero:The Heroic stroy of the Rescuers at the World Trade Center

How many of these are "government controlled?" Thats up to you to decide. I for one will take the word of the firefighters that were there and saw and heard everything.

Griff, if you could forward me the links to the seismic readings, i would like to do some research on them.

Thanks,

CF

Here's a video of firefighters hearing an explosion right behind WTC7:






Now that you know they heard it, the question is why haven't you read it in an interview transcript? Because those interviews aren't all-encompassing. They only emphasize certain things, for whatever reason.


Here are the extended seismic records from FEMA:




It stops short of WTC7's actual collapse, but you can see all the "further collapse" spikes. You can also see that at least one of those "further collapses" has a greater spike that a plane impact.

The biggest WTC7 spike was just before the penthouse visibly fell, and that spike packed more seismic energy than the whole rest of the building coming down. It was equal to the seismic spikes associated with the impact events in the towers.

[edit on 18-5-2007 by bsbray11]

Those seismic spikes are damning in my view. What else is one to conclude?

It also fits with what you see in all the videos of the WTC7 building coming down. The penthouse, which housed all the mechanics for the elevators, sat on the strongest point, and yet collapsed into the roof before the rest of the building began to fall.

I can't wait to see what they come up with for the official report.

Bsbray,

thanks for the video that actually has been posted a number of times... now a couple things to consider here.

1. What time was this. If there is an assumption that this is part of the CD ...does this "explosion" line up?

2. We have NO idea what that sound was. Transformer? Car? Bomb?

If you happen to read some of the firefighters interviews, some of them witnessed the tires and cars exploding. I will have to dig that interview up and provide it.


Thank you for the seismic readings. As I am not qualified to say what the heck that all means, I will do some research on what it tells us.


EDIT TO ADD.. I found the seismic recordings for the collapse of WTC7... again..it looks like an EKG from Grey's Anatomy to me! (yes i watch it with my wife)

The comments from Brent Blanchard of Protec states: "Any detonation of explosives within WTC7 would have been detected by multiple seismographs monitoring ground vibration in the general area. No such telltale "spike" or vibratory anomaly was recorded by any monioring instrument"


[edit on 18-5-2007 by CameronFox]

CameronFox


Check into the detail analysis by LapTop. Scroll up to top of thread if you have to. It is very in-depth.

LINK


This has not been refuted, nor has anyone dared to challenge the findings. 3 iidentical seismic events concerning the 3 buildings in question.

[edit on 18-5-2007 by talisman]

Talisman...with respect, it's too late for me to read that entire thread..any way you can post the relevant parts... like where he has drawn the conclusion that the seismic waves that were gathered and analyized show activity that it similar to that of a controlled demolition. Thanks in advance!

CameronFox

Understood, but take your time. Don't have to do it all in one sitting. Its important to just go through the whole thing to really get the jist of it.

Originally posted by CameronFox
2. We have NO idea what that sound was. Transformer? Car? Bomb?

Who gives a rat's ass? The point is you asked for an explosion, you got one.

Now if you want to say it's something else, please never ask for an explosion again, because there'll be no point in bringing you one if all you then do is say it's anything but an explosive and ignore the fact that it's ever been presented in the first place.

Ie, don't ask for an explosion, get one, and then hand-wave it away just to ask again tomorrow.

I don't really give a damn what all you think it is. The sounds only back up what I already know from just watching the building come down.

Thank you for the seismic readings. As I am not qualified to say what the heck that all means, I will do some research on what it tells us.

Which of course means, that you look up a typical debunker's position and copy and paste it here.


And here it is:

The comments from Brent Blanchard of Protec states: "Any detonation of explosives within WTC7 would have been detected by multiple seismographs monitoring ground vibration in the general area. No such telltale "spike" or vibratory anomaly was recorded by any monioring instrument"

On the contrary, there were many spikes as can be observed above.

Blanchard should clarify his position, and explain why the spikes in the above seismic records apparently do not count, because it can't be disputed that there are significant spikes.

bsbray:
I'm not trying to dispute this, but above you did provide the graph running up only to several hourse before the collapse. Were there more such spikes shortly before WTC7's collapse? Close enough to be relevant and after any "additional collapses" were likely done with? And how does all this line up with the collapse? Was the demo done over the day with numerous small bombs? I'd expect it to hit all at once, and am missing the relavance of these morning spikes.

BsBray,

A debunking website to gain knowledge? Is ANY website that does not agree with your theory a debunking website? I think a person that works with seismographs for a LIVING will be a little bit more reliable with information than that of someone from an internet CT forum that has not stated their credentials in seismographs and the translation of their readings etc... Why is EVERYONE that investigated 911 in on it? Or a liar? a "debunker?"

As far as explosions go, like I said, I have read so many interviews from several different media outlets, magazines, on line etc. Not one firefighter has stated what you have. Hundreds upon hundreds of firemen were standing there around the collapse zone not doing very much. None of them (that I have read) had stated that they heard multiple explosions prior to the collaspe..actually from what I have read and watched in interviews, the firemen KNEW the building was coming down... "it was leaning" "it was creaking " "we knew it was coming down" Now, from all the C.D.'s I have witnessed (on internet and TV) WTC-7 may "appear" to be a CD but where are all the explosions that are heard prior to the collapse?

But hey, let all dismiss the evidence ok... because you said all you need is to "look at it" ... Well ok then.. here ya have it!

Originally posted by CameronFox
I think a person that works with seismographs for a LIVING

Blanchard analyzes seismographs for a living? I think you're confused.

actually from what I have read and watched in interviews, the firemen KNEW the building was coming down... "it was leaning" "it was creaking " "we knew it was coming down"

And also, "It's about to blow up", "The whole building's gonna blow up", "You hear that? It'll be coming down soon", etc.

And those are things that you actually hear in the clips coming from 9/11. Where are the 9/11 clips where the firefighters are all walking around talking about how out of control that raging inferno was?

Now, from all the C.D.'s I have witnessed (on internet and TV) WTC-7 may "appear" to be a CD but where are all the explosions that are heard prior to the collapse?

You mean where are all the generators exploding prior to its collapse?

Find me a video taken relatively closely with good audio leading up to WTC7's collapse and I'll show you where all the exploding generators are.

All you have to do is look at the seismic records to see that massive amounts of energy was released into the bedrock just prior to its collapse. More energy, in fact, than the whole global collapse represented. That's case closed in my book: the building *not falling* was more energetic than the whole building falling. That goes well along with the fact that it free-fell and therefore none of its PE was actually used to crush the building.


What caused multiple seismic spikes equal in energy to the plane impacts in WTC7, Cameron? Do you think they made a noises? Energy releases equal to the plane impacts?

Originally posted by bsbray11

Blanchard analyzes seismographs for a living? I think you're confused.

Confused... maybe alittle ingorant to demolitions. BUT Mr. Blanchard is the senior editor for implosionworld.com and Director of Field Operations at Protec Documention Services.

For those of you NOT aware of who Protec are, they are one of the WORLDS most knowledgable independent authorities on explosive demolition, having performed engineering studies, structural analysis, vibration/air overpressure monitoring and photographic services on well over 1,000 structure blasting events in more than 30 countries. INCLUDING world records for the largest, tallest, and most buildings demolished with explosives. What I am not confused about is that they do deal with seismographs... all the time. Does Mr. Blachard use them himself...i can't be a 100% sure, but his company does. Its NECESSARY. In FACT...

Protec was operating portable field seismographs at construction sites in Manhattan and Brooklyn on 9/11, and these seismographs were recording groud vibrations throughout the timeframe of events at Ground Zero. These measurements, when combined with more specific and detailed seismic data recorded at Columbia University's Lamount-Doherty Earth Observatory, help to provide an unfiltered, purely scientific view of each event.

www.implosionworld.com...

And also, "It's about to blow up", "The whole building's gonna blow up", "You hear that? It'll be coming down soon", etc.

And those are things that you actually hear in the clips coming from 9/11. Where are the 9/11 clips where the firefighters are all walking around talking about how out of control that raging inferno was?

So, when the firefighters are saying "Blow Up" BsBray, are you implying the firefighters KNEW the building was going to be brought down via CD?

Per your request..here is a video of a Firefighter ....Sorry, I had a hard time posting this video...here is the link:

www.youtube.com...

You mean where are all the generators exploding prior to its collapse?

Find me a video taken relatively closely with good audio leading up to WTC7's collapse and I'll show you where all the exploding generators are.



All you have to do is look at the seismic records to see that massive amounts of energy was released into the bedrock just prior to its collapse. More energy, in fact, than the whole global collapse represented. That's case closed in my book: the building *not falling* was more energetic than the whole building falling. That goes well along with the fact that it free-fell and therefore none of its PE was actually used to crush the building.


What caused multiple seismic spikes equal in energy to the plane impacts in WTC7, Cameron? Do you think they made a noises? Energy releases equal to the plane impacts?

The evaluations done by Protec determined that the seismic activity is NOT consistant with a controlled demolition. I am NOT a pro at this stuff.... so i leave it up to the professionals.

Why are you so quick to dismiss the MANY firefighters and other EMS workers that were there and risked their lives to save people they didn't know... and try to resuce those they did?

Correct if me i'm wrong BsBray, but what i'm gathering here is that 1. you dont beleive the interviews that I have posted are accurate (lies) and / or: 2 - You don't beleive the firefighters themselves and feel they are somewhat covering up.

Originally posted by CameronFox
Mr. Blanchard is the senior editor for implosionworld.com and Director of Field Operations at Protec Documention Services.

And again I ask why the spikes presented above are not significant. The spikes from the towers alone show enormous energy releases from the bases of the buildings (because this is where the actual ground waves are issuing from) equivalent to magnitude 2.1/2.3 earthquakes.

Blanchard's problem in general, because the paper this is coming from isn't new, is that he assumes we are discussing a conventional demolition. This probably holds up for his points on the seismographs, if he even bothered to look at them at all. He says, for example, that because the towers didn't collapse from the base, they could not have been controlled demolitions.

I could explain in detail why this is fallacious logic, and why controlled demolitions are possible in other configurations, but I'll simply say instead that I can even post examples of even conventional demolitions that defy this logic, collapsing from the middle, for example. The reason buildings aren't brought down top-down sequentially, is because there is absolutely no need to do so in the commercial business.

If Blanchard is trying to argue that the towers were not conventional demolitions using high explosives planted in the conventional configuration, and it DOES appear this is what he argues throughout his paper, then I completely agree with him. But his wording along the way is what causes his statements to be fallacious, because they become absolutist and try to deny any possibility whatsoever by simple observations like "they didn't collapse from the bottom floor". Obviously they wouldn't if you began the fall sequence on a higher floor. How is this impossible? I've seen CDI do it before.

Protec was operating portable field seismographs at construction sites in Manhattan and Brooklyn on 9/11, and these seismographs were recording groud vibrations throughout the timeframe of events at Ground Zero. These measurements, when combined with more specific and detailed seismic data recorded at Columbia University's Lamount-Doherty Earth Observatory, help to provide an unfiltered, purely scientific view of each event.

Where are these records from Manhattan? Only LDEO's were ever released to the public, and they were not analyzed in any detail. Most of the events go unexplained (labelled by FEMA simply as "further collapses" with no further analysis), and WTC7's records show, again, that more energy was exerted before the building moved than during the global collapse. WTC7's records were also released later than the rest by LDEO, but I promise you it wasn't because the waves took longer to reach their lab. It was because they couldn't account for what had happened, and of course they never tried to analyze what was going on there.

I have a problem with people that simply throw assertions of their credibility at you, rather than the actual science. Claiming they have it is one thing -- actually having it is another. They aren't the only ones able to read a seismograph. It really isn't brain surgery to begin with. Maybe he's familiar with blast patterns typical of conventional demolitions. I couldn't care less, because I know those things weren't conventional demolitions. He doesn't have to sell me on that point.

I ask again -- do you think seismic energy releases equivalent to the impact events would make a noise?

So, when the firefighters are saying "Blow Up" BsBray, are you implying the firefighters KNEW the building was going to be brought down via CD?

They knew something if they knew it was going to "blow up". I couldn't tell you anything else about it.

The evaluations done by Protec determined that the seismic activity is NOT consistant with a controlled demolition.

Again, they also said that they couldn't have been demolitions because they didn't fall from the base.

You may not be "pro at this stuff" but hopefully you have enough wit about you to realize how fallacious the other logic he uses is.

Why are you so quick to dismiss the MANY firefighters and other EMS workers that were there and risked their lives to save people they didn't know... and try to resuce those they did?

Because I know you aren't getting the full story, and even then, these people could not possibly have been experts on these things because they had never happened before.

And if you do believe that you're getting the full story, I have a simple challenge for you: find me the testimony of the firefighters featured in the video I posted above, about hearing that explosion come from WTC7. Doesn't matter what they thought it was, just try to find a transcript of hearing it.

Correct if me i'm wrong BsBray, but what i'm gathering here is that 1. you dont beleive the interviews that I have posted are accurate (lies) and / or: 2 - You don't beleive the firefighters themselves and feel they are somewhat covering up.

I believe the reports you read are cherry-picked and not a good sample of material.

Why are there so many more videos of firefighters saying there were bombs in the building, secondary devices, numerous explosions, etc., from 9/11, than there are of whatever you're peddling?


Here is a former NYPD officer giving a very detailed account of what he experienced on 9/11. Watch these if you want to hear about explosions coming from WTC7, because he heard them.




He says specifically, around 4:50:

I don't know, but that didn't sound like just a building falling down to me while I was running away from it [WTC7]. There was a lot of eyewitness testimony down there hearing explosions. I didn't see any reason for that building to fall down the way it did, and a lot of guys should be saying the same thing. I don't know what the fear is in coming out and talking about it.

From this 2nd part, you have this:

As I approached, came down, saw the hub-bub going on around Building 7. Walked around it, saw a hole, I didn't see a hole big enough to knock a building down though. There was definitely fire in the building, but I didn't hear any...creaking, or I didn't hear any indication that it was gonna come down.

[...]

There was an umbrella of crap seven feet over my head that I just stared at. Somebody grabbed my shoulder and I started running...[Debris] is hitting the ground behind me.

And the whole time you're hearing, thoom thoom thoom thoom thoom. I think I know an explosion when I hear it. So yeah, I wanna know what took that building down.

I'm sure you can find the last part of the interview on your own if you're generally interested in what this man experienced, but I doubt you are.


Is this man a liar?